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Messages - FANOFD3

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Region 1 football (New England-ish) / Re: East Region Fan Poll
« on: August 15, 2022, 09:04:36 pm »
Hi Guys,

Just wanted to check-in to see who would be willing to participate in this seasons East Region (R1/R2) fan poll this year. I will be happy to continue running it, unless someone else would like to give it try this year. I would like to get a preseason poll by the end of the month, a few days prior to the first games.

Lehigh is on the hot seat (whisper was he would have been fired if he didn't beat Lafayette). No excuses, this is a pretty good situation. Traditionally a PL heavyweight they have been limping and does not make sense. You can win there.
Lafayette is safe--new guy from F&M who is an alum, he'll get 4-5 years
Bucknell is awful. Not on the hot seat, but it is warm, they need to show some progress, he'll get maybe one more year after this one. They have won the PL ONCE since inception in 1986. That is pretty inept in a 6/7 team league that ain't exactly a juggernaut. No one has been able to win there with consistency. That is a red flag.
Fordham is safe--they have a good amount of talent but cannot catch Holy Cross. Should be better despite facilities relative to the rest of the league, probably safe for now, but job has been a perennial stepping stone once someone gets success (Clawson, Moorhead)
Colgate--took a big step back with DH now at Williams, but current guy is an alum and long time staffer, he'll get it fixed and they tend to stay with coaches and don't think he's going anywhere
Georgetown--only PL school not giving scholarships and they do not care. Every 5-7 years they make it interesting but program stinks overall due to lack of support
Holy Cross is a plum gig with wonderful weight room and alumni support. This would get a pretty strong pool of applicants after Chesney leaves (matter of when, not if).

It is very unfortunate too. It has been talks about the basketball program struggling and other sports, because of the lack of support in football. I don't think the correlation is 1 to 1, but I know having a scholarship football program for Georgetown that is in the heart of the DMV, where many FCS and DII come in grab game changers, could help tremendously. Being in the DMV, the lore of playing at Georgetown is not there as it was 15 to 20 years ago. The administration needs to stop sitting on their hands with this...Sorry for the FCS talk, rant over.

We should be expecting the NJAC Coaches Poll in a few weeks. Last year release was on August 24th.

So...random question:

When was the last time a team from what we might consider the current "East" had a win over a team from the midwest/west/south that resonated nationally? (I know that's not exactly how we divide up the country anymore, but it's the offseason, so give me some slack)

I'm not talking about the time where Buff State stunned Whitewater, but then Whitewater turned out to be just solid that year and Buff State wound up indistinguishable from Ithaca and Utica at 6-4. Amazing at the time, but turned out to matter very little nationally

I'm not talking Brockport over Wesley, who I think was sort of viewed as an East team.

Wesley's older wins, of course, qualifiy, but Wesley is not a thing anymore, so I don't think that really matters either.

Do we have to go all the way back to the Rowan dynasty?

Salisbury beat the WIAC Champion in 2019. Feels like a millenial ago tho and that Oshkosh team went 8-3 losing to Central in a dramatic OT game 1st round. It's really levels to these things. I think one year, the East can have the players, but lose because of scheme, then one year scheme takes them to lose to better athletes, especially the athletes on the D-Line and O-Line. I honestly think the Wesley Teams in mid 2000s and early 10s had the administration support and players, just faced more experience foes. I think that 2019 Del Val team was close, but I think they faced a once in a blue moon NCC team and had average QB play that didn't help.

How would I do it, in a world where I can do anything I want?

I'd ask institutions (presidents and ADs) for 100% honest answers to a tough two-part question:

Do you really believe your football program should be competing for the same current end goal as programs such as Mount Union, MHB, NCC? Or would it be better served competing with programs on a different tier?

I'd take those responses and create at least one, possibly more divisions.

At the core, there is no way around the fact that we've just got programs who are ostensibly not competing for the same thing. I'm not talking about players or coaches. I'm talking about the institutional willingness to look at the current D3 football landscape and decide: We want to put forth the expense and effort, institutionally, to compete with those handful of teams at the top.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying: Hey, we love having a football program, and we love providing continuing athletic opportunities for student-athletes in football. But yeah, we're not in the Mount, MHB category, and we don't need to be in the same system

There was a time when UWW wasn't good. Where UMHB didn't exist. Where NCC was not the measuring stick.

I don't know if there was a time before UMU, but I assume so.

There's no need to split the division because there are teams who aren't at that level right now. It sound cliche, but any team can become great with the right coaching hire and work ethic.

But the greatness required to win a national championship requires more than coaching and hard work in practice and in games.

It's an institution-wide commitment that extends far beyond the football program. Offices like financial aid, admissions, the President, alumni relations, philanthropy...they all have to be on board with the idea. They have to set the expectation that they want their program to be the best in the country, and they have to support that, in tangible ways. Yes, there was a time where [insert elite program] was not elite...and then something changed.

I mean, let's just take one of the things you brought up: Coaching. Great coaches don't materialize out of nothing. They're attracted, and more importantly, retained, by an institution whose goals match their own.

Is your institution willing to spend the money to hire the best coach possible? Once he's hired, are they going to ensure that he can bring on the staff he wants? To provide him with the recruiting budget he needs? Who else is working with him to help drum up the philanthropic and alumni support he needs and can't do all on his own?

All those things can effect the quality of the coaching staff you attract, your ability to retain them, and their ability to maximize their own talents.

There is so much that goes into having a nationally successful program that isn't just "We've got a great coach and our players work hard"

I agree, it is definitely more than coaching. I like to think locale is a factor as well. The administration support is a different animal, especially since you have to be able to get at least 20-30 players each recruiting year and have the financial aid packages for those possible D'twoers and D'oners. I think where you see programs that are very successful in multiple sports, I believe administration is very supportive, but sometimes football requires to much of budget to get over to the next tier. Some administrations are fine with being good or just simply happy with just fielding teams to help with Student Morale. I'd say for the latter schools, those schools and players are focused more on life after football. Regarding Coaches, sometimes Coaching changes can be detrimental regardless of reasons (i.e Wesley). IMHO, with the passing of Coach Drass and prior to the financial issues, Wesley level of play decreased from being a tier 1b program to tier 2. On the flipside, I saw a Frostburg team go from being the runt of the ACFC/E8/ to dominating the NJAC and reaching Tier 2 stratosphere (Granted the announcement of going DII helped). I do think innovation can help teams get from 5 wins to 8 to 11 once in a while, but to get to the Stagg, has to definitely start at the Top (Administration).

Region 4 football (Great Lakes-ish) / Re: FB: Ohio Athletic Conference
« on: August 04, 2022, 02:54:03 pm »
  Sad to report that MUC57 has passed away. I will miss his kindness and sportsmanship.

Condolences to the family and friends of MUC57. Always had insightful post about all of DIV III football. Didn't know MUC57 outside of the boards, but always had my respect.

Good points JK. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a logical D2 option in this part of SE Va. The best non D3 option would be D1 FCS. But then you're talking scholarships and increased salaries and department budgets. The current endowment just doesn't seem to support it. I'm curious how other D1 schools manage it with a smaller endowment. CNU already has steep student fees for athletics at $111.03 per credit hour (includes intramural support as well as intercollegiate athletics).

But hey - if there was an easy or obvious answer, it would have been figured out by now and by folks a lot smarter than I am.

Did you see the NJAC/C2C Men's Lacrosse new conference?

I had that same thought, that DIV 1 would be a more viable option based upon traveling purposes. Salisbury could make the jump, I think offering scholarships could increase what donors can do for the athletic department. Going back to the DII discussion and this is allowing our Lacrosse and other sports programs that may not be viable at DII to go DI only (similar to what Utica is going to do). There are conferences like South Atlantic and CIAA (which has divisions) that could be a temporary home in DII. I think Bluefield and UNC-Pembroke are Independent, could get E&H on board and possibly Newport News (Considering the current NIL laws) so they could improve their membership. It is just uneasy that the likes of CNU and Salisbury may end up on the outside of conference reshuffle (all speculation at this point). Salisbury and CNU take pride in all their sports and respect what DIII has and continues to offer them.


Great post! I'll add more when I get a bit more time but I think the Seagulls could actually face a bigger issue within the next couple of years and that's NJAC football. There are some conversations taking place that could POTENTIALLY hurt or even kill NJAC football. A couple of teams are VERY quietly engaging in "what if" talks to move out and Rowan has MUCH bigger future plans/dreams (think D1-AA........I still refuse to say that goofy FCS).

I have no clue where the Seagulls could wind up if the NJAC (from a football perspective) blew up. Maybe the couple of remaining teams could raid a program here or there and cobble something together. The MAC would never work given the sheer number of teams already..........unless 2 other teams (not even going to drop a speculation nugget) make a Landmark type move.

I'd hate to see it for the Seagulls, but this conference roulette is far from over.........from sea to shining sea(gull)!! ;)

Some interesting tidbits there. Salisbury has played the independent game and I do not want that for them, I'd rather them go to DII. Maybe they get an invitation from the E8 or CC. I think CC would be fine as Stevenson and McDaniel are natural in-state rivals for Salisbury. I'd also venture to say if Salisbury has an issues, so does CNU. 

Had a chance to digest the DIV 1 FBS media days and I was trying to figure out what team reminds me of Salisbury and Salisbury trajectory to winning a national championship. The one team that stood out was Iowa. Now don't get me wrong here, Salisbury doesn't have the big lineman that Iowa has that can just line-up and just play smash mouth football, Salisbury Spread (Triple-Option) Offense is predicated on making the opposing defense play the guessing game. Defensively, Iowa is always pretty decent, being able to hold their own on most occasions. Nevertheless, Iowa appears to always be in the conversation of winning the BIG, coming out the west, but always appears to come up short  to teams with better athletes or teams that appear to match up pretty well to stop the "rushing attack". With that there were discussions on how Iowa can get over the hump and it was mentioned that for Iowa to get over the hum, that can't not be ranked 120 out 130 in passing. As such, Iowa has brought in a new passing game coordinator that will help change the narrative. However, my concern is if this new passing coordinator disrupts what consistency Iowa has, it can either catapult them into a decade of mediocrity or propel them into getting into the final 4. I somewhat share that same sentiment with Salisbury.

Looking at the last 15 years, Salisbury has played 50 teams with 8+ wins, accumulating a record of 18-32 or .360 win pct.  2021 - UWW (L), JH (L). 2019 - UWO (W) , Wesley (W), Union (W), Muhlenberg (L). 2018 - Montclair State (W), FSU (L). 2017 - Wesley (L), FSU (L), Albright (L), Ithaca (L). 2016 - FSU (L), Wesley (L), FSU (L). 2015 - Kean (W), Wesley (W), Cortland (L). 2014 - SJF (W), Buff St (L), Wesley (L). 2013 - Ithaca (L), SJF (W), Alfred (L), Wesley (L). 2012 - SJF (W), Wesley (L), Widener (L). 2011 - SJF (W), Alfred (W), Wesley (L), WNE (W), Kean (W), UWW (L). 2010 - HSC (L), Wesley (L), DelVal (L). 2009 - NCW (L), Wesley (L), Union (W), HSC (L), LVC (L). 2008 - Albright (W), CNU (W), DVU (L), Wesley (L), Moravian (W). 2007 - Geneva (W), Wesley (L), Muhlenberg (L).

So here is my question. Should Salisbury risk doing something completely different to get over the hump to become a regional juggernaut (being the best in R1/R2) that can compete nationally or continue to be respectable nationally and be known for winning a big game here and there, but not the big one's? What is everyone else perspective on how they view Salisbury. \

To be honest, I expected our win% to be .500 or greater considering the last 3 years have been very successful, but that could be solely due to the departures of both Wesley and Frostburg and NJAC not being as dominate as the early 2000s to 2010s and the lack of opponents with good records outside of playoffs and bowl games.

Is the Liberty League in trouble? I read with interest and commented on a post by NED3Guy on the Region 1 board entitled, Northeast D3 Shuffle. He focuses not only on the ECFC and their impending loss of 2 teams but shuffles throughout New England and New York. What I commented needs to be repeated on the LL board. It's strictly conjecture and my opinion.

"There will surely be plenty of movement in the coming years. With the departure of Utica the E8 needs a team. The most likely would be Alfred St. or possibly Buffalo St. returning, or both :o. That would leave the LL lacking so Hilbert is a possibility but I've always thought Hartwick belongs in the LL.  That's been rehashed before and probably won't happen. The E8 has the pressing need for a team for 2023 but it's the LL that is more vulnerable.
If the ECFC dissolves Castleton St. would need a home. Might that be the LL? Geographically that would work...or would the LL have to look to elsewhere in New England. Springfield, once a LL member, or neighboring Western New England? Western Connecticut? WPI?  What's really needed is for a current LL school to start a football program. Clarkson had a team decades ago and currently has a club football team. It would be a natural rival for St. Lawrence as they are in all other sports. Skidmore has ever expanding successful sports programs. Could they add football? Vassar or Bard are LL members so? The answer may be the long discussed merger of the LL and the E8. That seems more and more likely."

Anybody have any thoughts?

Buff St makes no sense but for the current (but not future) need for a seventh team, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they return to the E8 and the LL might just sit tight with a very coherent set of six teams, though OOC scheduling would get tougher.

With so many teams in NY and surrounding areas. When has LL/E8 team(s) struggled to fill out schedule?

Rowan re-published a Philadelphia Business Journal story saying they are looking to expand from 23,000 to 40,000 students, grow endowment from $340M to $1B, spend $500M on capital projects over the next 5-6 years, and work with a private developer to build a 5-7K seat arena that the developer would own but allow Rowan to hold campus events such as basketball and graduation.

And you don't need a basketball arena that large unless you're thinking about D1 - which the article also says is being explored.

"That's something that takes effort, it takes resources, it takes partnership, but we certainly believe that we deserve it," [Rowan President Ali] Houshmand told the Business Journal in an interview. "We are good enough, we are large enough and we believe that we should be moving in that direction. How long will it take? I don't know, but we have every intention of pursuing it."

On the higher end of that 5-7K range.........their on-campus arena would dwarf those at St. Joe's, LaSalle, Drexel..........and would be close to those at Penn (Palestra), Villanova and Temple.

Rowan has much bigger aspirations than hanging around the D3 ranks..........but if for some reason they do, they should be national contenders in many sports given the size, facilities and the much less expensive cost to attend vs. the typical D3 private school.

The old Glassboro State wouldn't recognize this place! Thank you Henry Rowan!!! :)

I think with the new change in legislation, you'll see many teams that were held back due to previous rules consider moving to D1 and/or DII to help with cost and to match their enrollment with other regional schools that are D1-FCS and DII. There is no reason that Frostburg is DII and not Salisbury. Salisbury not going DII was strictly due to not having a viable conference to join and DII not being a better alternative for our top sports being in that of DIII.

Yes, you absolutely neeed 10 games.  In fact I would argue that playing 10 legitimate games means more to the typical student athlete than the rare chance of playing in a playoff game.

I agree, I think it is an absolute disservice for a school not to have 10 games unless its for health reason (i.e. not enough players). I know last year there were a few schools that indicated both health and funding as to the lack of a full game schedule. However, there are many cases where we complain about matchups like Mount vs. Defiance. Sometimes coaches don't want to demoralize their teams by taking a beating and would rather have another week of practice. Yet there are cases where administration may play a huge part (not speculating, just saying).

Hello there! I didn't know there were message boards for D3 football! Nice to meet you all and I can't wait to talk D3 :) go Del Val!

Welcome to the Boards. It's amazing that the board isn't pushed for Alumni by schools in general, especially considering the promotion the site does for all of DIII. I know coaches do not want players on the site, but still, I was fortunate to find the site myself. I've learned so much about many teams and players over the years. Again, welcome!

Anyone, get a chance to watch the BIG 33 game between MD and PA H.S. All-Stars? The MD squad feature players committed to both Salisbury and Mount Union, any word of the PA young men?

Anyone, get a chance to watch the BIG 33 game between MD and PA H.S. All-Stars? The MD squad feature players committed to both Salisbury and Mount Union, any word of the PA young men?

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