Author Topic: Conference changes  (Read 234878 times)

Offline WUPHF

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1350 on: June 22, 2022, 01:37:17 pm »
I looked up attendance from 2019-2020 as they had a good, winning season and should have seen an increase from casual fans and they mostly hovered around 600-800.  They had 1,700 once.

This season was way down, but between Covid and the announcement, that was to be expected.

So yeah, this is probably a good move, despite the concern from alumni and fans.

Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1351 on: June 22, 2022, 04:35:40 pm »
I have no doubt the majority of those fans think going to D3 is a step down. Obviously we know that's not necessarily true.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1352 on: June 22, 2022, 09:37:17 pm »
Hartford to the CCC

https://twitter.com/HartfordHawks/status/1539262931556237316

the fans are absolutely thrilled LOL

Geez. It's not like they're going to the NAIA or something. LOL

One of my nephews recently accepted a scholarship to play hoops at an NAIA school. I'm so bummed that I have to dial back on the NAIA jokes for the next four years. :(

I have no doubt the majority of those fans think going to D3 is a step down. Obviously we know that's not necessarily true.

Unfortunately, you and I and WUPHF and Gordon and all of the rest of us regular posters here are swimming against the cultural tide in terms of thinking that way about D3.
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Offline WUPHF

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1353 on: June 22, 2022, 09:46:42 pm »
I have followed my share of mediocre Division I and Division II teams, including my alma mater, not to mention a high-level NAIA team, and I'll watch any of them, but Division III is special. 

The Hartford fans may find that out soon enough.

Offline Next Man Up

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1354 on: June 23, 2022, 01:26:34 am »
From talking to scores of recruits over the years, the number that view an athletic scholarship as a signal that they have achieved success in their basketball lives is rather mind boggling. While some who “need” a scholarship truly do so due to their family economic situation, most “need” it to show their peers that they have attained the upper echelon in the basketball hierarchy. The weight an athletic scholarship carries is often enough to cause a recruit to overlook the fact that the NAIA or D2 offering the free ride rates a mile or two academically below the D3 they might otherwise consider. Also, many would take the scholarship even if it means they’ll be occupying the last seat on the end of the bench as opposed to having a real chance to be a meaningful contributor at a D3 school. 

I’ve also observed that often times a major reason why not only the kids, but their parents as well, look at things this way is the fault of AAU coaches. With the proliferation of AAU teams, the competition for players has reached epic proportions. Accordingly, not all, but many AAU coaches will dangle the scholarship carrot, virtually guaranteeing that signing with his team will result in an athletic scholarship offer/offers. 
So young hero, ask yourself……………………….Do you want to go to college, get a good education, and play (basketball)(football), or do you want to go to college, get a good education, and watch (basketball)(football)? 🤔 😏

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Offline WUPHF

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1355 on: June 23, 2022, 09:46:00 am »
From talking to scores of recruits over the years, the number that view an athletic scholarship as a signal that they have achieved success in their basketball lives is rather mind boggling.

Truth be told, this is nearly universal among college-aged kids.

There is a reason why many private liberal arts colleges give scholarships to nearly all incoming students.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1356 on: June 23, 2022, 11:28:33 am »
From talking to scores of recruits over the years, the number that view an athletic scholarship as a signal that they have achieved success in their basketball lives is rather mind boggling. While some who “need” a scholarship truly do so due to their family economic situation, most “need” it to show their peers that they have attained the upper echelon in the basketball hierarchy. The weight an athletic scholarship carries is often enough to cause a recruit to overlook the fact that the NAIA or D2 offering the free ride rates a mile or two academically below the D3 they might otherwise consider. Also, many would take the scholarship even if it means they’ll be occupying the last seat on the end of the bench as opposed to having a real chance to be a meaningful contributor at a D3 school. 

I’ve also observed that often times a major reason why not only the kids, but their parents as well, look at things this way is the fault of AAU coaches. With the proliferation of AAU teams, the competition for players has reached epic proportions. Accordingly, not all, but many AAU coaches will dangle the scholarship carrot, virtually guaranteeing that signing with his team will result in an athletic scholarship offer/offers.

This is true to a degree, but it needs a bunch of qualifiers. Two of those qualifiers are familiarity and location. Any long-time observer of small-college sports is aware that each of those two levels of intercollegiate sports consists of a group of schools that are very disproportionate with regard to American geography. While D3 does conform better to U.S. population demographics than does NAIA, it's nevertheless underrepresented in places such as Florida, Louisiana, California, Texas, and the Mountain Time Zone, and overrepresented in places such as Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Minnesota. NAIA? It's a veritable patchwork, with total small-college dominance here or there and complete nonexistence elsewhere. Thus, what a high-school kid who wants to play sports at the next level thinks of D3 versus NAIA in terms of school choice is also shaped to a large degree upon where he or she calls home.

To use the best example of a high-school athlete who chose NAIA that I know -- my nephew -- geography and familiarity played a huge role in his decision. He's from northern Indiana, and northern Indiana is an NAIA hotbed. One of the best leagues in NAIA men's basketball, the Crossroads League, is heavily represented in his part of the state, and two other NAIA leagues, the WHAC and CCAC, also have member schools that are within an hour's drive of my sister's and brother-in-law's house. D3 isn't unknown in northern Indiana, but member schools are thin on the ground, with only two D3 campuses located there. My nephew isn't D1 or high D2 material, but he was one of the top point guards in the entire Michiana region and was named IBCA All-State honorable mention, and he thus drew a lot of attention from small schools. And almost all of them were NAIA schools from those three leagues, especially the Crossroads, a league with which most ballplayers in his county are very familiar. And so he ended up choosing a Crossroads school that offered him a scholie that, I'm sure, probably amounts to a pittance, the way that most NAIA partial scholies do.

He didn't choose his school because of the scholie. He chose it because of the coach who recruited him, the school's proximity to his home, the fact that the school has the major he wants, and because he knows and respects the Crossroads League. But he was recruited by a couple of D3 schools as well, neither of which has a very good men's basketball program and neither of which is a school that in general appealed to him. Had Trine, Hope, or Calvin recruited him, I'm certain that he would've strongly considered either or all of them, NAIA offers or not. But they didn't, for whatever reason. (It isn't ability, because he's good enough to play for any of those three MIAA programs, although possibly not right away.)

Yeah, the social cred of a basketball scholarship -- even if it's a mere $500 per semester -- is a powerful lure to the self-esteem of a high-school senior, and a lot of kids are motivated by it to choose an NAIA school over a D3 school. But adolescent ego and pushy AAU coaches do not provide a comprehensive summary as to why high-school seniors make that particular choice. There are other reasons as well, and the two related reasons of geography and familiarity are among them.
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Offline Caz Bombers

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1357 on: June 23, 2022, 12:27:45 pm »
since Hartford brings the CCC to 11 members, anyone else think that as the NECC winds down its existence as a multi-sport conference (transitioning into a single sport men's volleyball circuit) that Eastern Nazarene, Mitchell and New England College will land here to make it an even 14 schools?

Possibly with two 7-team divisions in certain sports, or single round robin 13-game schedule in basketball for example.

Offline WUPHF

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1358 on: June 23, 2022, 12:54:31 pm »
To use the best example of a high-school athlete who chose NAIA that I know -- my nephew -- geography and familiarity played a huge role in his decision. He's from northern Indiana, and northern Indiana is an NAIA hotbed. One of the best leagues in NAIA men's basketball, the Crossroads League, is heavily represented in his part of the state, and two other NAIA leagues, the WHAC and CCAC, also have member schools that are within an hour's drive of my sister's and brother-in-law's house. D3 isn't unknown in northern Indiana, but member schools are thin on the ground, with only two D3 campuses located there. My nephew isn't D1 or high D2 material, but he was one of the top point guards in the entire Michiana region and was named IBCA All-State honorable mention, and he thus drew a lot of attention from small schools. And almost all of them were NAIA schools from those three leagues, especially the Crossroads, a league with which most ballplayers in his county are very familiar. And so he ended up choosing a Crossroads school that offered him a scholie that, I'm sure, probably amounts to a pittance, the way that most NAIA partial scholies do.

This is awesome, Greg!

Maybe you can nudge North Park to schedule that school instead of East-West or Cardinal Stritch next season.

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1359 on: June 23, 2022, 01:51:26 pm »
Hartford is adding field hockey, ice hockey and tennis. (The article does not mention male or female to those sports, field hockey female of course.)

https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-mens-basketball/hc-sp-university-of-hartford-annouce-conference-20220621-20220621-yva7ijnkarb45pvyxhbv2f4nv4-story.html

« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 01:58:02 pm by Ralph Turner »

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1360 on: June 23, 2022, 01:57:10 pm »
since Hartford brings the CCC to 11 members, anyone else think that as the NECC winds down its existence as a multi-sport conference (transitioning into a single sport men's volleyball circuit) that Eastern Nazarene, Mitchell and New England College will land here to make it an even 14 schools?

Possibly with two 7-team divisions in certain sports, or single round robin 13-game schedule in basketball for example.

I'd be interested to read Ryan's thoughts on this matter, since he's an Eastern Nazarene alumnus.

Maybe you can nudge North Park to schedule that school instead of East-West or Cardinal Stritch next season.

My hope is that there won't be any late cancellations in North Park's schedule in the foreseeable future that would require Sean Smith to schedule any NAIA opponents.

Hartford is adding field hockey, ice hockey and tennis. (The article does not mention male or female to those sports.)

https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-mens-basketball/hc-sp-university-of-hartford-annouce-conference-20220621-20220621-yva7ijnkarb45pvyxhbv2f4nv4-story.html

Field hockey is women only, isn't it? Or am I hopelessly behind the times on that matter? It's been so long since I lived in the northeast that I can't remember the last time I gave field hockey a second thought. Unlike lacrosse, the allure of field hockey has not spread westward.
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1361 on: June 23, 2022, 03:03:04 pm »
ENC and NEC were essentially kicked out of the CCC. They're both much smaller in terms of endowment and can't really compete with those schools. I know ENC has really enjoyed the chance to actually win conference tournaments, something they only did once in 30 years of CCC play.

I suspect the CCC might poach a couple of the GNAC's larger spenders (or football programs) and let the NECC teams fill in there.

The NAC is the better fit for ENC, but I don't think they want that kind of travel commitment.
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Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1362 on: June 24, 2022, 12:14:53 pm »
Louisiana College changed its name to Louisiana Christian University.
In joining the NAIA, they dropped down to 5 men's and 4 women's sports.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1363 on: June 24, 2022, 12:29:35 pm »
ENC and NEC were essentially kicked out of the CCC. They're both much smaller in terms of endowment and can't really compete with those schools. I know ENC has really enjoyed the chance to actually win conference tournaments, something they only did once in 30 years of CCC play.

I suspect the CCC might poach a couple of the GNAC's larger spenders (or football programs) and let the NECC teams fill in there.

The NAC is the better fit for ENC, but I don't think they want that kind of travel commitment.

What other realistic option or options does ENC have?
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Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

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Re: Conference changes
« Reply #1364 on: June 24, 2022, 02:50:10 pm »
ENC and NEC were essentially kicked out of the CCC. They're both much smaller in terms of endowment and can't really compete with those schools. I know ENC has really enjoyed the chance to actually win conference tournaments, something they only did once in 30 years of CCC play.

I suspect the CCC might poach a couple of the GNAC's larger spenders (or football programs) and let the NECC teams fill in there.

The NAC is the better fit for ENC, but I don't think they want that kind of travel commitment.

What other realistic option or options does ENC have?

I'm pretty sure the NAC would take them in a heartbeat.  I'm less sure the GNAC is looking to add just anyone.  I really do think there's something afoot, in terms of organizing another new conference.  The eSports mess makes reforming the NECC to keep the AQ, a bit of a headache.  ENC's already in three different conferences for different sports.

The coaches I've spoken to genuinely seem like they're unaware of the plans following this year.  I'd assume they need to announce something soon, but stranger things have happened than a couple schools falling into Pool B unexpectedly.  Maybe after the fiscal year turns over next week?
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