Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?

Started by LM3, August 29, 2017, 09:47:55 AM

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Ralph Turner

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 06, 2017, 11:43:33 AM
Quote from: NEPAFAN on December 06, 2017, 11:01:45 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 05, 2017, 09:28:57 PM
There are always schools considering the move... just not sure if they will or won't.

Most have to get their applications in by early January for a decision to then be made. That is why this time of the year is popular for these kinds of reports, speculation, rumors, etc.

Personally, not many DIIIs have moved on to DII and it done anything more than be a blimp on the radar.

UT-Tyler is not the only one considering this right now. Benedictine (Ill.) has a decision coming from their board of trustees this week.

Blimp on the radar lol, that is a new one.

Chestnut Hill has successfully moved from D3 to D2 in the Philly region FWIW.

Great. You named one. I can name another Philly area school that has basically disappeared: Lincoln.

I can also name schools like MacMurry who have returned with their tail between their legs. Or Rowan who keeps talking that they are going on to DII (with hopes to move on to DI) and can't the process started.

A lot of schools have left DIII for DII. Not many make headlines. Same can be said in reverse, especially in the modern era.
Several years ago, Maryville University Saints in Saint Louis, MO moved from the SLAIC to D-2 in about 2009.  Their Wikipeida page talks about the success that they have had in Wrestling when they picked the Wrestling team from U Nebraska-Omaha (as UNO moved from D-2 to D-1).

Centenary LA and Birmingham Southern from D-1 to D-3 in the last decade are the ones that come to mind in this part of  the country.  (I assume that they are doing well with the move.)

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Oops... spelling mistake on my part. Didn't mean MacMurray... meant McMurry. SMH I do that sometimes.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 06, 2017, 12:52:59 PM
Oops... spelling mistake on my part. Didn't mean MacMurray... meant McMurry. SMH I do that sometimes.
+1!  Thanks.

justafan12

#33
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 05, 2017, 05:25:58 PM

Herewith a mere opinion: going from D3 to D2 might not be the best way to garner feathers for anyone's cap, and it could be a "negative" accomplishment [see the case of McMurry].

Full disclosure: I have doubts about the sanity of an academic CEO who believes that athletic success in itself will make her/his venue a better institution of learning.  :'(
From what I heard, the new President is only planning on staying at UTT for 5 years.  Full effect of moving to D2 won't be know for at least that amount of time.  So he touts he "moved" them up a step to D2 with no one really knowing the true effect.  In reading some of his quotes, he felt like the move to D2 would help in getting corporate sponsorship (not my words; his).

Knowing the program there, I am not a fan of the move.  Have they outgrown the ASC; maybe so.  I understand there has been talk in the past of wanting to remove the state schools from the ASC but since Sul Ross is a charter member they did not want to do that.  Now schools are looking to form their own conference and just not invite the state schools to join.  So maybe it is a good move for UTT just to get ahead of the game and make the move now.  Only time will tell.

(modified by GS for formatting)

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: justafan12 on December 06, 2017, 02:49:52 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 05, 2017, 05:25:58 PM

Herewith a mere opinion: going from D3 to D2 might not be the best way to garner feathers for anyone's cap, and it could be a "negative" accomplishment [see the case of McMurry].

Full disclosure: I have doubts about the sanity of an academic CEO who believes that athletic success in itself will make her/his venue a better institution of learning.  :'(
From what I heard, the new President is only planning on staying at UTT for 5 years.  Full effect of moving to D2 won't be know for at least that amount of time.  So he touts he "moved" them up a step to D2 with no one really knowing the true effect.  In reading some of his quotes, he felt like the move to D2 would help in getting corporate sponsorship (not my words; his).

Knowing the program there, I am not a fan of the move.  Have they outgrown the ASC; maybe so.  I understand there has been talk in the past of wanting to remove the state schools from the ASC but since Sul Ross is a charter member they did not want to do that.  Now schools are looking to form their own conference and just not invite the state schools to join.  So maybe it is a good move for UTT just to get ahead of the game and make the move now.  Only time will tell.

(modified by GS for formatting)

This is why I reference that sometimes these moves are about ego, feather in the hat, reputation, and resume... not necessarily what is best for the school.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

justafan12

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 06, 2017, 03:08:19 PM
Quote from: justafan12 on December 06, 2017, 02:49:52 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on December 05, 2017, 05:25:58 PM

Herewith a mere opinion: going from D3 to D2 might not be the best way to garner feathers for anyone's cap, and it could be a "negative" accomplishment [see the case of McMurry].

Full disclosure: I have doubts about the sanity of an academic CEO who believes that athletic success in itself will make her/his venue a better institution of learning.  :'(
From what I heard, the new President is only planning on staying at UTT for 5 years.  Full effect of moving to D2 won't be know for at least that amount of time.  So he touts he "moved" them up a step to D2 with no one really knowing the true effect.  In reading some of his quotes, he felt like the move to D2 would help in getting corporate sponsorship (not my words; his).

Knowing the program there, I am not a fan of the move.  Have they outgrown the ASC; maybe so.  I understand there has been talk in the past of wanting to remove the state schools from the ASC but since Sul Ross is a charter member they did not want to do that.  Now schools are looking to form their own conference and just not invite the state schools to join.  So maybe it is a good move for UTT just to get ahead of the game and make the move now.  Only time will tell.

(modified by GS for formatting)

This is why I reference that sometimes these moves are about ego, feather in the hat, reputation, and resume... not necessarily what is best for the school.

Exactly!

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

hopefan

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 07, 2017, 06:26:06 AM

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Eckerd is an example of this... it would be a perfect D3 school, private institution, fine academics, 1800 students, a D3 sized gymnasium and facilities... BUT there are no D3 schools in Florida, so they have to be noncompetitive in most sports, putting most of their $ into men's and women's basketball.

The only thing not to be liked in Florida is no D3 hoops!!!

smedindy

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 07, 2017, 06:26:06 AM

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: smedindy on December 09, 2017, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 07, 2017, 06:26:06 AM

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money. 
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 15, 2017, 01:44:44 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 09, 2017, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 07, 2017, 06:26:06 AM

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money.
...which was implicit in the move from NAIA (or D3) to D2.

Part of the sales pitch that is given by consultants in the move from D3 to D2 is that the school will get a "better" quality of student.

You gotta spend money to make money!

Bishopleftiesdad

Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 18, 2017, 06:31:39 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 15, 2017, 01:44:44 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 09, 2017, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 07, 2017, 06:26:06 AM

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money.
...which was implicit in the move from NAIA (or D3) to D2.

Part of the sales pitch that is given by consultants in the move from D3 to D2 is that the school will get a "better" quality of student.

You gotta spend money to make money!
I would ask the consultants to define better. I would find it hard to believe that better involves students academic chops.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on December 19, 2017, 03:13:03 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 18, 2017, 06:31:39 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 15, 2017, 01:44:44 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 09, 2017, 07:47:13 PM
Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 07, 2017, 06:26:06 AM

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money.
...which was implicit in the move from NAIA (or D3) to D2.

Part of the sales pitch that is given by consultants in the move from D3 to D2 is that the school will get a "better" quality of student.

You gotta spend money to make money!
I would ask the consultants to define better. I would find it hard to believe that better involves students academic chops.
For McMurry, the attraction of D2 was to get into the "better" suburban schools in the state. When McMurry announced it was going to D2, the admissions people (and coaches) were able to get into high schools that they had not previously been able to.

McMurry is still a "first generation" school.  The diversity mix is "laudable" by "popular standards".  However, those "first generation" students present challenges that some colleges may not be able to handle, or may not want to associate themselves with. (That is politically incorrect, and it has manifested itself as a "mission and vision" issue in D3 conference formation. But that stratum of American society comprises many of my friends and where I came from.  I am well aware of the other side of "White Privilege".) I can see how McMurry presents a degree of "desirable difficulty" for these first generation students as described by Bjork and Bjork and elaborated upon in Malcolm Gladwell's David and Goliath (an enjoyable holiday read.)


Gray Fox

Ralph,
   I think geography makes a big difference here.  In the east and Big Ten states there are many small colleges that are well thought of academically. and are well known by the locals.  In the SCIAC areas, the academic advisors may know of the local schools, but the general public does not.

GF
Fierce When Roused

Ralph Turner

Grey Fox, speaking to the McMurry situation, when McMurry administration was told by the consultant, a former NCAA executive, that the university could get a "better" student-athlete by moving to D2, and Hal Mumme was talking about going to D-2 as the only private football playing school in Texas, McMurry admission personnel were now getting to talk to student-athletes in Highland Park Dallas, Round Rock schools, Lake Travis, etc.  That was a big difference.