MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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Gregory Sager

Quote from: GoPerry on March 19, 2023, 10:36:27 AM
I am also pleasantly surprised at Sean Smith's selection as Coach of the Year given that NPU as a team didn't seem to catch voter's Top 25 attention until very late.  But perhaps it's not the same group of voters?

Pat may or may not disagree with me, but I definitely don't think that Sean Smith would've been COY if it was left up to the poll voters.

I've always been good with the concept of Pat's staff selecting the d3hoops.com awards rather than letting the poll voters do it. Not that I disparage Pat's choices when it comes to who he's awarded the honor of getting a poll ballot every week, but there's some pretty idiosyncratic individuals among them, and not everyone is immune to a regional bias, either. Also, while I think that most of his voters are very assiduous with regard to seeing as many different teams as possible in order to keep themselves well-informed on, let's say, the top forty or fifty teams in the country, I suspect that there are at least a few of them that don't. And I get that; it takes a huge amount of time and effort to watch that many teams, and not everybody has that copious amount of time and effort to give. But awards, which happen only once per season rather than once every week during the season, should be a different matter.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

crusader_nation

First Wheaton commit that I've seen ...

https://twitter.com/SorenRichardso2/status/1636130881575288834

Soren Richardson, 6'3" SG out of Northfield, MN

GoPerry

Quote from: kiko on March 19, 2023, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 18, 2023, 08:11:35 PM
This is well-deserved (as is the All-American recognition for Tyson Cruickshank and Matt Helwig).

Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches.  It should be taken to a farm upstate where it has plenty of room to roam and to shoot baskets against the barn all day long.

I am thrilled for Sean Smith as NCOY. Well deserved. To be fair, the CCIW coaches awarded Mike Schauer COY (his first time ever as COY) prior to NPU winning the CCIW tourney and advancing to the sweet 16. Schauer's squad finished a game clear of NPU for the regular season title and he took a team picked 4th in the conference and went 14-2 in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. His team also happened to advance to the elite 8, losing to National Champ CNU by 6. No disrespect to Sean Smith, who is deserving as NCOY, I think Mike's award as COY was deserved at the time it was awarded and the idea he was given it as a gratuitous tradition by the other coaches diminishes what is probably his best coaching job as Wheaton's head coach.

If you look at what I wrote, I did not poke at *who* won the award this year.  You can make a case for either coach.

What I have an issue with is the process the coaches use to make that selection.  It is, to be pointed, a cowardly way to decide who to recognize.

And let's be clear -- Mike Schauer *did* win COY in the CCIW because of a gratuitous tradition, because that's how the coaches choose the winner.  This doesn't diminish the job he did -- it diminishes the award because there is zero nuance behind how the winner is chosen.

Cowardly? 

Isn't it possible that the CCIW coaches, understanding what it takes to win a CCIW championship (pre-game, in-game, recruiting), simply believe that the coach who is able to take his team, preseason favorite or not, to an outright regular season title is deserving of that year's Coach of the Year recognition?  That is not a crazy, cowardly, (or one of your other descriptors) rationale at all when it comes to Men's CCIW basketball.  The fact that it is different than how others might wish it were awarded, or how other conferences do it, or how other sports do it, doesn't necessarily make it less legitimate. 

Gregory Sager

Yes, but automatically? Without exception? Ever?
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Final poll is out.

* Wheaton finishes #6 (up from #9 prior to the tourney)
* North Park finishes #14 (up from #19 prior to the tourney)

https://d3hoops.com/top25/men/2022-23/final
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

kiko

Quote from: GoPerry on March 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 19, 2023, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 18, 2023, 08:11:35 PM
This is well-deserved (as is the All-American recognition for Tyson Cruickshank and Matt Helwig).

Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches.  It should be taken to a farm upstate where it has plenty of room to roam and to shoot baskets against the barn all day long.

I am thrilled for Sean Smith as NCOY. Well deserved. To be fair, the CCIW coaches awarded Mike Schauer COY (his first time ever as COY) prior to NPU winning the CCIW tourney and advancing to the sweet 16. Schauer's squad finished a game clear of NPU for the regular season title and he took a team picked 4th in the conference and went 14-2 in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. His team also happened to advance to the elite 8, losing to National Champ CNU by 6. No disrespect to Sean Smith, who is deserving as NCOY, I think Mike's award as COY was deserved at the time it was awarded and the idea he was given it as a gratuitous tradition by the other coaches diminishes what is probably his best coaching job as Wheaton's head coach.

If you look at what I wrote, I did not poke at *who* won the award this year.  You can make a case for either coach.

What I have an issue with is the process the coaches use to make that selection.  It is, to be pointed, a cowardly way to decide who to recognize.

And let's be clear -- Mike Schauer *did* win COY in the CCIW because of a gratuitous tradition, because that's how the coaches choose the winner.  This doesn't diminish the job he did -- it diminishes the award because there is zero nuance behind how the winner is chosen.

Cowardly? 

Isn't it possible that the CCIW coaches, understanding what it takes to win a CCIW championship (pre-game, in-game, recruiting), simply believe that the coach who is able to take his team, preseason favorite or not, to an outright regular season title is deserving of that year's Coach of the Year recognition?  That is not a crazy, cowardly, (or one of your other descriptors) rationale at all when it comes to Men's CCIW basketball.  The fact that it is different than how others might wish it were awarded, or how other conferences do it, or how other sports do it, doesn't necessarily make it less legitimate.

Crazy is your descriptor, not mine.

And, yes.  When a group of grown men in a professional setting are asked to make a selection, but find themselves so unwilling to put a stake in the ground as to their POV -- even via a secret ballot where nobody actually knows who you voted for -- on what is a pretty low-stakes question in the grand scheme of things, I think that is a coward's way of making a choice.

The picture you paint around the process involving some degree of elevated wisdom that this, children, is the best way to settle this question strains credibility more than a little.

And for the eleventybillionth time, since it seems to be Team North DuPage that takes issue with this POV, this is not me saying Mike Schauer didn't deserve the award.  He's a perfectly fine choice, and if you are reading my questioning the legitimacy of his selection, you should go back and re-read what I actually posted.  The next post you see on this board in which I am critical about his coaching acumen will be the first one you see on these boards.

USee

Kiko,

When you say this "Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches." You are very much saying you disagree with the choice. Whether you deny you are saying that or not, 90%+ of every reader sees you as disagreeing with the choice. Just own it, it's fine to have an opinion on a public opinion board.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2023, 12:00:12 PM
Quote from: GoPerry on March 19, 2023, 10:36:27 AM
I am also pleasantly surprised at Sean Smith's selection as Coach of the Year given that NPU as a team didn't seem to catch voter's Top 25 attention until very late.  But perhaps it's not the same group of voters?

Pat may or may not disagree with me, but I definitely don't think that Sean Smith would've been COY if it was left up to the poll voters.

I've always been good with the concept of Pat's staff selecting the d3hoops.com awards rather than letting the poll voters do it. Not that I disparage Pat's choices when it comes to who he's awarded the honor of getting a poll ballot every week, but there's some pretty idiosyncratic individuals among them, and not everyone is immune to a regional bias, either. Also, while I think that most of his voters are very assiduous with regard to seeing as many different teams as possible in order to keep themselves well-informed on, let's say, the top forty or fifty teams in the country, I suspect that there are at least a few of them that don't. And I get that; it takes a huge amount of time and effort to watch that many teams, and not everybody has that copious amount of time and effort to give. But awards, which happen only once per season rather than once every week during the season, should be a different matter.

I don't necessarily expect immunity to regional bias -- this is why we have people from across all 10 regions.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

USee

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2023, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 18, 2023, 08:11:35 PM
This is well-deserved (as is the All-American recognition for Tyson Cruickshank and Matt Helwig).

Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches.  It should be taken to a farm upstate where it has plenty of room to roam and to shoot baskets against the barn all day long.

I am thrilled for Sean Smith as NCOY. Well deserved. To be fair, the CCIW coaches awarded Mike Schauer COY (his first time ever as COY) prior to NPU winning the CCIW tourney and advancing to the sweet 16. Schauer's squad finished a game clear of NPU for the regular season title and he took a team picked 4th in the conference and went 14-2 in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. His team also happened to advance to the elite 8, losing to National Champ CNU by 6. No disrespect to Sean Smith, who is deserving as NCOY, I think Mike's award as COY was deserved at the time it was awarded and the idea he was given it as a gratuitous tradition by the other coaches diminishes what is probably his best coaching job as Wheaton's head coach.

I have no argument with the rest of your comment, but the part I bolded strays from defensiveness into misconception.

It's not an "idea" that the CCIW head coaches annually award the COY honor to the coach(es) of the team(s) that win the league. It's a fact. The CCIW's MBB history page amply demonstrates the near-perfect correspondence between the COY and the conference champion -- including, as you yourself pointed out, seasons in which there were co-champions, in which case the COY award was shared as well. The lone exception was 2003, the second year that the COY award was given out by the league. The CCIW title was shared by Augustana, Carthage, and Illinois Wesleyan that season, but the award was only given to Scott Trost of Illinois Wesleyan. It would be difficult to prove, given the closed-mouthedness of CCIW head coaches where league awards are concerned, but my guess is that the gentlemen's agreement among them to annually award the COY to the conference champion's mentor, even if it meant splitting the award among the coaches of co-champions, dates back to that year. It's only a theory, but, given the egos and the hypercompetitiveness of that generation of CCIW head coaches, it makes total sense.

As for the tradition being "gratuitous", that's an eye-of-the-beholder statement. I'm sure that, if pressed, the coaches would've said that locking the COY award to the final standings keeps the peace among the nine men involved. Now, kiko considers that policy to be "cowardly", and that, too, is a judgment call. I think that "negligent" or "unnuanced" or "diminishing" (or kiko's original choice, "myopic") would be a better adjective there. I think that the COY loses some of its juice by the fact that it is a de facto rubber-stamp of an award ... which is why I can understand your defensive stance here regarding Mike Schauer's worthiness. But kiko's right that Schauer's a perfectly fine choice for 2023 COY, too -- particularly since, as you said, the award was given out prior to the CCIW tourney.

Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 07:11:44 PM
I think it has to be more than "perfectly fine choice" to give it to anyone besides the clear conference winner.  How many times has there been a no brainer winner that wasn't the regular season champ? I wouldn't have voted for Soderberg over Ron rose

Disagree ... and since you're a football guy I'm rather surprised to see you say this, given that the CCIW football coaches refuse to rubber-stamp their COY award and will award it on occasion to a coach whose program makes huge strides forward rather than merely giving it to a champion coach whose powerhouse program simply performed as expected. I seem to remember that the posters on the CCIW football board have talked before about how it's a good thing that the CCIW football coaches do it that way, in stark contrast to their hidebound basketball coaching brethren.

I'm not sure that the world would come to an end if the CCIW MBB coaches broke with tradition and adopted the more open-ended attitude of their football colleagues. There's been wholesale turnover in the MBB coaching ranks in this league in recent seasons; with Carroll's pending new hire, six of the nine CCIW head coaching jobs will have turned over since the Covid pandemic struck. It seems to me that the new breed of coaches don't have quite the sharp elbows of their predecessors as far as personal rivalries are concerned. This could be the perfect time for the new generation to set the old gentlemen's agreement aside and start awarding the COY based upon what they view as merit -- even if there isn't 100% consensus as to how that merit is measured -- rather than maintain a custom that only diminishes the award by making it automatic.

Greg,

You make some good points and I mostly agree with your discourse here. I would point out two things:

1-My choice of the word gratuitous was not a misconception, rather a reaction to Kiko saying "...simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches". I understand your feeling that this is a rote excercise but I have not heard that specifically from any of the coaches directly. That doesn't prove or disprove your assertion.

2-Football is a very different animal. Most years there isn't a "co-COY" award because teams play each other just once and the winner gets it over the loser if there is a tie at the top. There have been 3.5 exceptions since 1978 to the COY CCIW football award that I am aware of. In 1982 NCC's Lloyd Krumlauf went 6-1-1 in 1982 (Augie went 8-0), Paul Krohn was awarded Co-COY after going 3-4 in his last year as head coach at Elmhurst (Swider was also awarded it as conference champion), Mike Conway was given the COY title in 2013 after going 3-4 in the league, and in 2018 Larry Kindbom was given the award after going 7-2 in WashU's first year in the league (NCC and IWU were 8-1). That's really only 3 times in 45 years the football champion wasn't at least Co-COY.


GoPerry

Quote from: kiko on March 20, 2023, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: GoPerry on March 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 19, 2023, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 18, 2023, 08:11:35 PM
This is well-deserved (as is the All-American recognition for Tyson Cruickshank and Matt Helwig).

Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches.  It should be taken to a farm upstate where it has plenty of room to roam and to shoot baskets against the barn all day long.

I am thrilled for Sean Smith as NCOY. Well deserved. To be fair, the CCIW coaches awarded Mike Schauer COY (his first time ever as COY) prior to NPU winning the CCIW tourney and advancing to the sweet 16. Schauer's squad finished a game clear of NPU for the regular season title and he took a team picked 4th in the conference and went 14-2 in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. His team also happened to advance to the elite 8, losing to National Champ CNU by 6. No disrespect to Sean Smith, who is deserving as NCOY, I think Mike's award as COY was deserved at the time it was awarded and the idea he was given it as a gratuitous tradition by the other coaches diminishes what is probably his best coaching job as Wheaton's head coach.

If you look at what I wrote, I did not poke at *who* won the award this year.  You can make a case for either coach.

What I have an issue with is the process the coaches use to make that selection.  It is, to be pointed, a cowardly way to decide who to recognize.

And let's be clear -- Mike Schauer *did* win COY in the CCIW because of a gratuitous tradition, because that's how the coaches choose the winner.  This doesn't diminish the job he did -- it diminishes the award because there is zero nuance behind how the winner is chosen.

Cowardly? 

Isn't it possible that the CCIW coaches, understanding what it takes to win a CCIW championship (pre-game, in-game, recruiting), simply believe that the coach who is able to take his team, preseason favorite or not, to an outright regular season title is deserving of that year's Coach of the Year recognition?  That is not a crazy, cowardly, (or one of your other descriptors) rationale at all when it comes to Men's CCIW basketball.  The fact that it is different than how others might wish it were awarded, or how other conferences do it, or how other sports do it, doesn't necessarily make it less legitimate.

Crazy is your descriptor, not mine.

And, yes.  When a group of grown men in a professional setting are asked to make a selection, but find themselves so unwilling to put a stake in the ground as to their POV -- even via a secret ballot where nobody actually knows who you voted for -- on what is a pretty low-stakes question in the grand scheme of things, I think that is a coward's way of making a choice.

The picture you paint around the process involving some degree of elevated wisdom that this, children, is the best way to settle this question strains credibility more than a little.

And for the eleventybillionth time, since it seems to be Team North DuPage that takes issue with this POV, this is not me saying Mike Schauer didn't deserve the award.  He's a perfectly fine choice, and if you are reading my questioning the legitimacy of his selection, you should go back and re-read what I actually posted.  The next post you see on this board in which I am critical about his coaching acumen will be the first one you see on these boards.

Apologies . . "crazy" was not yours . . . "cowardly", "myopic", "requiring zero cognitive ability" were yours

And I understand that you are not saying Schauer was undeserving.  And my point is not to defend him as CoY over any other.  My comment, just like yours, goes to the process and why the coaches vote the way you do.  If the coaches want to recognize their fellow coach who takes his team to the regular season title, that's as good a reason as any since I've never heard that there is any written guidance or citation of criteria.  So the coaches define it and base it on achievement. 

I suppose I should ask:  Did Sean Smith get told by another CCIW coach or by the league that they have to vote their CoY ballot to the regular season winning coach even if against their conscience?   And is the vote unanimous every year?  This seems to be what is alleged.


Gregory Sager

Quote from: crusader_nation on March 20, 2023, 02:38:08 PM
First Wheaton commit that I've seen ...

https://twitter.com/SorenRichardso2/status/1636130881575288834

Soren Richardson, 6'3" SG out of Northfield, MN

I'm not going out on a limb by guessing that he's the little brother of Wheaton women's basketball forward Annika Richardson.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Quote from: USee on March 20, 2023, 05:35:14 PM
Kiko,

When you say this "Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches." You are very much saying you disagree with the choice. Whether you deny you are saying that or not, 90%+ of every reader sees you as disagreeing with the choice. Just own it, it's fine to have an opinion on a public opinion board.

I disagree.

With all due respect, there are two parallel issues here that you're conflating. One is the process, the other is the selection that came out of that process in this particular iteration of the All-CCIW awards. Both kiko and I are against the process. There have been plenty of seasons in which I would've agreed that the championship coach was the most deserving of the COY award, and I still would've disagreed with the selection process. As for Mike Schauer and his 2022-23 coaching performance, neither kiko nor I are badmouthing it at all. I think it's the one thing we can all agree upon here.

Strictly speaking about the selection itself -- not the process -- would I have voted differently if I was a CCIW head coach and I had a say in this? Yes. I would've voted for Sean Smith. It's pretty apparent that kiko would've done the same. Does that mean that either of us considers Mike Schauer a bad choice for 2023 CCIW COY? Not at all. The first opinion does not negate the possibility of also holding the second opinion. The problem is that the process prevents the possibility of acting upon that first opinion. Because of the rubber stamp, there wasn't even the possibility of the coaches contesting the relative merits of Mike Schauer and Sean Smith, or of Ron Rose and Kramer Soderberg last season, etc.

Quote from: USee on March 20, 2023, 06:17:40 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2023, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 18, 2023, 08:11:35 PM
This is well-deserved (as is the All-American recognition for Tyson Cruickshank and Matt Helwig).

Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches.  It should be taken to a farm upstate where it has plenty of room to roam and to shoot baskets against the barn all day long.

I am thrilled for Sean Smith as NCOY. Well deserved. To be fair, the CCIW coaches awarded Mike Schauer COY (his first time ever as COY) prior to NPU winning the CCIW tourney and advancing to the sweet 16. Schauer's squad finished a game clear of NPU for the regular season title and he took a team picked 4th in the conference and went 14-2 in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. His team also happened to advance to the elite 8, losing to National Champ CNU by 6. No disrespect to Sean Smith, who is deserving as NCOY, I think Mike's award as COY was deserved at the time it was awarded and the idea he was given it as a gratuitous tradition by the other coaches diminishes what is probably his best coaching job as Wheaton's head coach.

I have no argument with the rest of your comment, but the part I bolded strays from defensiveness into misconception.

It's not an "idea" that the CCIW head coaches annually award the COY honor to the coach(es) of the team(s) that win the league. It's a fact. The CCIW's MBB history page amply demonstrates the near-perfect correspondence between the COY and the conference champion -- including, as you yourself pointed out, seasons in which there were co-champions, in which case the COY award was shared as well. The lone exception was 2003, the second year that the COY award was given out by the league. The CCIW title was shared by Augustana, Carthage, and Illinois Wesleyan that season, but the award was only given to Scott Trost of Illinois Wesleyan. It would be difficult to prove, given the closed-mouthedness of CCIW head coaches where league awards are concerned, but my guess is that the gentlemen's agreement among them to annually award the COY to the conference champion's mentor, even if it meant splitting the award among the coaches of co-champions, dates back to that year. It's only a theory, but, given the egos and the hypercompetitiveness of that generation of CCIW head coaches, it makes total sense.

As for the tradition being "gratuitous", that's an eye-of-the-beholder statement. I'm sure that, if pressed, the coaches would've said that locking the COY award to the final standings keeps the peace among the nine men involved. Now, kiko considers that policy to be "cowardly", and that, too, is a judgment call. I think that "negligent" or "unnuanced" or "diminishing" (or kiko's original choice, "myopic") would be a better adjective there. I think that the COY loses some of its juice by the fact that it is a de facto rubber-stamp of an award ... which is why I can understand your defensive stance here regarding Mike Schauer's worthiness. But kiko's right that Schauer's a perfectly fine choice for 2023 COY, too -- particularly since, as you said, the award was given out prior to the CCIW tourney.

Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 07:11:44 PM
I think it has to be more than "perfectly fine choice" to give it to anyone besides the clear conference winner.  How many times has there been a no brainer winner that wasn't the regular season champ? I wouldn't have voted for Soderberg over Ron rose

Disagree ... and since you're a football guy I'm rather surprised to see you say this, given that the CCIW football coaches refuse to rubber-stamp their COY award and will award it on occasion to a coach whose program makes huge strides forward rather than merely giving it to a champion coach whose powerhouse program simply performed as expected. I seem to remember that the posters on the CCIW football board have talked before about how it's a good thing that the CCIW football coaches do it that way, in stark contrast to their hidebound basketball coaching brethren.

I'm not sure that the world would come to an end if the CCIW MBB coaches broke with tradition and adopted the more open-ended attitude of their football colleagues. There's been wholesale turnover in the MBB coaching ranks in this league in recent seasons; with Carroll's pending new hire, six of the nine CCIW head coaching jobs will have turned over since the Covid pandemic struck. It seems to me that the new breed of coaches don't have quite the sharp elbows of their predecessors as far as personal rivalries are concerned. This could be the perfect time for the new generation to set the old gentlemen's agreement aside and start awarding the COY based upon what they view as merit -- even if there isn't 100% consensus as to how that merit is measured -- rather than maintain a custom that only diminishes the award by making it automatic.

Greg,

You make some good points and I mostly agree with your discourse here. I would point out two things:

1-My choice of the word gratuitous was not a misconception, rather a reaction to Kiko saying "...simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches". I understand your feeling that this is a rote excercise but I have not heard that specifically from any of the coaches directly. That doesn't prove or disprove your assertion.

You're right, it doesn't. What does prove it is: a) the total correspondence between COY and league champion since 2003; and b) the fact that, in the second year of the award, only one coach among the three championship coaches was given the award, and this involved some pretty obvious personal rivalries among outspoken men with very strong opinions and considerable egos (qualities very much in keeping with their generation of basketball coaches).

Two-decades-plus of total correspondence between award and standings is too much of a proven trend to be viewed as a mere coincidence. I don't view this as a "feeling" on my part, or on kiko's part, or on the part of anybody else who's spoken about the rubber-stamp nature of the CCIW MBB COY over the years. I view it as a logical deduction based upon totally compelling evidence, as well as a few cryptic allusions made to it by coaches and SIDs in the past.

Quote from: USee on March 20, 2023, 06:17:40 PM2-Football is a very different animal. Most years there isn't a "co-COY" award because teams play each other just once and the winner gets it over the loser if there is a tie at the top. There have been 3.5 exceptions since 1978 to the COY CCIW football award that I am aware of. In 1982 NCC's Lloyd Krumlauf went 6-1-1 in 1982 (Augie went 8-0), Paul Krohn was awarded Co-COY after going 3-4 in his last year as head coach at Elmhurst (Swider was also awarded it as conference champion), Mike Conway was given the COY title in 2013 after going 3-4 in the league, and in 2018 Larry Kindbom was given the award after going 7-2 in WashU's first year in the league (NCC and IWU were 8-1). That's really only 3 times in 45 years the football champion wasn't at least Co-COY.

... but twice within the last decade. That's a stark contrast to the track record of the MBB coaches.

(Is it the sports version of a mixed metaphor if I refer to "the track record of the MBB coaches"?  ;))
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

kiko

Quote from: USee on March 20, 2023, 05:35:14 PM
Kiko,

When you say this "Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches." You are very much saying you disagree with the choice. Whether you deny you are saying that or not, 90%+ of every reader sees you as disagreeing with the choice. Just own it, it's fine to have an opinion on a public opinion board.

Okay, final post on this topic since you seem to have a reading comprehension issue, then I am moving on.

I would not have selected Mike Schauer if I had a vote in this process.  (Similarly, last year I would not have voted for Ron Rose.)  So, yes, I do disagree with the choice.  I have not suggested otherwise, so I'm not exactly sure what you think I am not owning.

But while I would not have personally cast my vote for Mike Schauer, I don't have any issue with him being selected.   In my mind, there were two coaches this year who would have been justifiable choices.  That's why I have said he's a perfectly fine choice and that I was clear to tee off my original comments with the 'no disrespect' caveat.  My issue throughout this discussion has been with the *process* by which he was selected.  Nuance is a helluva thing but it's not a hard concept to understand.


Quote from: GoPerry on March 20, 2023, 06:35:12 PM
My comment, just like yours, goes to the process and why the coaches vote the way you do.  If the coaches want to recognize their fellow coach who takes his team to the regular season title, that's as good a reason as any since I've never heard that there is any written guidance or citation of criteria.  So the coaches define it and base it on achievement. 

Assuming there are no written guidelines -- and if there are, they have not surfaced anywhere that I have seen -- then of course the coaches are free to define the criteria themselves and base it on whatever they'd like.  And similarly, if I, a random internet commenter, find their approach to be particularly flawed and shortsighted in that it is essentially a rubber stamp rather than a true assessment of who they felt did the best job that year (maybe it was the coach of the regular season champion and maybe it wasn't -- but the door would seem to be closed on any sort of original thinking on this question), then, absent an objection from the Landlord on this real estate, I am also free to offer up what I think of their approach.


Gregory Sager

Quote from: GoPerry on March 20, 2023, 06:35:12 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 20, 2023, 03:22:17 PM
Quote from: GoPerry on March 20, 2023, 02:50:25 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 19, 2023, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: USee on March 19, 2023, 12:26:42 PM
Quote from: kiko on March 18, 2023, 08:11:35 PM
This is well-deserved (as is the All-American recognition for Tyson Cruickshank and Matt Helwig).

Now I will bite my tongue about how Sean Smith wasn't even coach of the year in his own conference.  No disrespect to Mike Schauer, but the myopic tradition of simply handing this recognition to the coach of the regular season winner requires zero cognitive ability and does not reflect well on the conference's coaches.  It should be taken to a farm upstate where it has plenty of room to roam and to shoot baskets against the barn all day long.

I am thrilled for Sean Smith as NCOY. Well deserved. To be fair, the CCIW coaches awarded Mike Schauer COY (his first time ever as COY) prior to NPU winning the CCIW tourney and advancing to the sweet 16. Schauer's squad finished a game clear of NPU for the regular season title and he took a team picked 4th in the conference and went 14-2 in one of the toughest conferences in the nation. His team also happened to advance to the elite 8, losing to National Champ CNU by 6. No disrespect to Sean Smith, who is deserving as NCOY, I think Mike's award as COY was deserved at the time it was awarded and the idea he was given it as a gratuitous tradition by the other coaches diminishes what is probably his best coaching job as Wheaton's head coach.

If you look at what I wrote, I did not poke at *who* won the award this year.  You can make a case for either coach.

What I have an issue with is the process the coaches use to make that selection.  It is, to be pointed, a cowardly way to decide who to recognize.

And let's be clear -- Mike Schauer *did* win COY in the CCIW because of a gratuitous tradition, because that's how the coaches choose the winner.  This doesn't diminish the job he did -- it diminishes the award because there is zero nuance behind how the winner is chosen.

Cowardly? 

Isn't it possible that the CCIW coaches, understanding what it takes to win a CCIW championship (pre-game, in-game, recruiting), simply believe that the coach who is able to take his team, preseason favorite or not, to an outright regular season title is deserving of that year's Coach of the Year recognition?  That is not a crazy, cowardly, (or one of your other descriptors) rationale at all when it comes to Men's CCIW basketball.  The fact that it is different than how others might wish it were awarded, or how other conferences do it, or how other sports do it, doesn't necessarily make it less legitimate.

Crazy is your descriptor, not mine.

And, yes.  When a group of grown men in a professional setting are asked to make a selection, but find themselves so unwilling to put a stake in the ground as to their POV -- even via a secret ballot where nobody actually knows who you voted for -- on what is a pretty low-stakes question in the grand scheme of things, I think that is a coward's way of making a choice.

The picture you paint around the process involving some degree of elevated wisdom that this, children, is the best way to settle this question strains credibility more than a little.

And for the eleventybillionth time, since it seems to be Team North DuPage that takes issue with this POV, this is not me saying Mike Schauer didn't deserve the award.  He's a perfectly fine choice, and if you are reading my questioning the legitimacy of his selection, you should go back and re-read what I actually posted.  The next post you see on this board in which I am critical about his coaching acumen will be the first one you see on these boards.

Apologies . . "crazy" was not yours . . . "cowardly", "myopic", "requiring zero cognitive ability" were yours

And I understand that you are not saying Schauer was undeserving.  And my point is not to defend him as CoY over any other.  My comment, just like yours, goes to the process and why the coaches vote the way you do.  If the coaches want to recognize their fellow coach who takes his team to the regular season title, that's as good a reason as any since I've never heard that there is any written guidance or citation of criteria.  So the coaches define it and base it on achievement.

Do they, though? Does what Sean Smith did this past regular season not qualify as "achievement"?

Quote from: GoPerry on March 20, 2023, 06:35:12 PMI suppose I should ask:  Did Sean Smith get told by another CCIW coach or by the league that they have to vote their CoY ballot to the regular season winning coach even if against their conscience?   And is the vote unanimous every year?  This seems to be what is alleged.

These are good questions, since they get right to the heart of the matter, vis-a-vis the mechanics of how the rubber stamp works. And, truth be told, I've never heard of any outsiders laying out those process details. As outsiders-posing-as-insiders go, I'm pretty sure that if Bob Quillman had ever been invited by Ron Rose or Scott Trost or Dennie Bridges or anybody else to take a tour of the CCIW coaches' sausage factory, he would've told us that he'd taken the tour (even if he was sworn to secrecy about what he'd actually seen or been told). And I'm dead certain that AndOne/NextManUp, the Edward Snowden of CCIW men's basketball, would've completely spilled the beans on CCIW Chat if he'd ever been given access as to how the COY vote works in terms of complicit agreements.

Me? (Yes, I, too, am an outsider posing as an insider, as far as the coaches are concerned.) As I've said, I've heard offhand allusions made to the rubber stamp in the past by coaches and SIDs. Nothing that would stand up in a court of law, mind you. Let's be thankful that these aren't government secrets at stake. :D I have been reluctant to ask coaches direct questions about it, because directly asking someone to reveal his secret ballot, and why he voted the way he did once his previously-secret ballot has been revealed, strikes me as falling into the "none of my business" category, in the same way that I wouldn't ask someone to reveal who he or she voted for for president of the U.S. -- but if the person's wearing a red MAGA hat or has a bumper sticker that says RESIST or BIDEN/HARRIS 2020, I can feel pretty secure in deducing his or her vote, anyway.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Stertorous Thunder

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 20, 2023, 09:26:38 PM
Quote from: crusader_nation on March 20, 2023, 02:38:08 PM
First Wheaton commit that I've seen ...

https://twitter.com/SorenRichardso2/status/1636130881575288834

Soren Richardson, 6'3" SG out of Northfield, MN

I'm not going out on a limb by guessing that he's the little brother of Wheaton women's basketball forward Annika Richardson.

Nice. The previous case of the same scenario worked out pretty well for both programs (Hannah Williams and Andrew Williams).