Big Dance 2022 - Let's Go!

Started by Hopkins92, November 07, 2022, 01:39:27 PM

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Another Mom


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It begins and ends with quality in the back. Defense wins championships.
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As the mother of a defender I couldn't agree more :-)

SimpleCoach

Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 05:43:43 PM
Williams beats Messiah on PKs.  Big keeper does his job.



Big Moments, Big Plays.  The road to the national title has to have a plus keeper/plus keeper play at the front of the bus.....it will win championships.  Williams GK made big plays, and maybe even more important -was really intimating and had a big presence in goal.  Played big during the game, and had a large presence during PKs. Messiah lacked that presence, and other than the single save, didn't really affect PK takers - and honestly didn't seem to react well to PKs taken.  Messiahs machine was fueled by scoring - and heading into PKs - it was advantage Williams

Not taking away anything from the Williams keeper who has shown his metal.  But Jared The Mullet Pavlovich is an AA keeper in his own right.  Yes, Messiah had a scary attack, but don't take away from their defense and keeper.

SC.

PaulNewman


PaulNewman

Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2022, 09:50:42 AM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 05:43:43 PM
Williams beats Messiah on PKs.  Big keeper does his job.



Big Moments, Big Plays.  The road to the national title has to have a plus keeper/plus keeper play at the front of the bus.....it will win championships.  Williams GK made big plays, and maybe even more important -was really intimating and had a big presence in goal.  Played big during the game, and had a large presence during PKs. Messiah lacked that presence, and other than the single save, didn't really affect PK takers - and honestly didn't seem to react well to PKs taken.  Messiahs machine was fueled by scoring - and heading into PKs - it was advantage Williams

Not taking away anything from the Williams keeper who has shown his metal.  But Jared The Mullet Pavlovich is an AA keeper in his own right.  Yes, Messiah had a scary attack, but don't take away from their defense and keeper.

SC.

Agreed....didn't lose a single match all season, and is a fantastic in-game shot stopper.  I've watched him make some remarkable saves.

Saint of Old

These things are hard hard to win man, and believe it or not the magic ingredient this time of year (besides) hunger and confidence is LadyLuck. That is your trifecta in November, unfortunately some teams just run out of that third requirement. Messiah has been lucky. I have personally experienced a dance playing before the craziest by far crowd in D3 (before they won a single Chip) What people don't realize is that Messiah was a sick sick team way before 2000. Always strong, just didn't win the big one. Still even for a program this good you need loads and loads of luck to win almost a dozen Chips in a short span.
Who does Lady Luck favor now, there are no sub-par or undeserving teams left so Luck will play a big part.

FBALLISLIFE


Round 3

*Chicago v St. Thomas at noon
Gust. Adophus v. St. Olaf at 2:30 pm

*Stevens v SUNY Cortland at 1 pm
Catholic v. Johns Hopkins at 3:30 pm

Williams v. Ohio Northern at 11 am
*Kenyon v W&L at 1:30 pm

*Amherst v Mary Washington at 11 am
SUNY Oneonta v. Bowdoin at 1:30 pm

Round 4

Winners of Chicago region play at 2 pm
Winners of Stevens region play at 3 pm
Winners of Kenyon region play at 1 pm
Winners of Amherst region play at 1 pm

So much for staggering. At least they don't have all the sectional finals starting at the same time.

camosfan

Undefeated teams are very vulnerable, when the competition reaches the knockout stage!

MessageBoardMessi

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 14, 2022, 09:57:10 AM
Quote from: SimpleCoach on November 14, 2022, 09:50:42 AM
Quote from: MessageBoardMessi on November 14, 2022, 08:31:53 AM
Quote from: Kuiper on November 13, 2022, 05:43:43 PM
Williams beats Messiah on PKs.  Big keeper does his job.



Big Moments, Big Plays.  The road to the national title has to have a plus keeper/plus keeper play at the front of the bus.....it will win championships.  Williams GK made big plays, and maybe even more important -was really intimating and had a big presence in goal.  Played big during the game, and had a large presence during PKs. Messiah lacked that presence, and other than the single save, didn't really affect PK takers - and honestly didn't seem to react well to PKs taken.  Messiahs machine was fueled by scoring - and heading into PKs - it was advantage Williams

Not taking away anything from the Williams keeper who has shown his metal.  But Jared The Mullet Pavlovich is an AA keeper in his own right.  Yes, Messiah had a scary attack, but don't take away from their defense and keeper.

SC.

Agreed....didn't lose a single match all season, and is a fantastic in-game shot stopper.  I've watched him make some remarkable saves.

Agree with you both - didn't mean to diminish a remarkable season or a good player....my comments were specific to yesterday , and the brutal reality of single elimination, big moments,  and even more so - PKs to make the final call.  Granted, I think think Messiah and Williams could have played forever yesterday if we didn't get to PKs

blue_jays

Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:16:39 AM

Round 3

*Chicago v St. Thomas at noon
Gust. Adophus v. St. Olaf at 2:30 pm

*Stevens v SUNY Cortland at 1 pm
Catholic v. Johns Hopkins at 3:30 pm

Williams v. Ohio Northern at 11 am
*Kenyon v W&L at 1:30 pm

*Amherst v Mary Washington at 11 am
SUNY Oneonta v. Bowdoin at 1:30 pm

Round 4

Winners of Chicago region play at 2 pm
Winners of Stevens region play at 3 pm
Winners of Kenyon region play at 1 pm
Winners of Amherst region play at 1 pm

So much for staggering. At least they don't have all the sectional finals starting at the same time.

This is by design, the NCAA has prescribed start times in the manual and the schools stick to it unless there is a demonstrable conflict (like a Saturday afternoon football game that pushes the soccer games to a night time start). Day games start at 11 AM, night games at 5 PM.

nescacfan94

Quote from: blue_jays on November 14, 2022, 11:08:27 AM
Quote from: FBALLISLIFE on November 14, 2022, 10:16:39 AM

Round 3

*Chicago v St. Thomas at noon
Gust. Adophus v. St. Olaf at 2:30 pm

*Stevens v SUNY Cortland at 1 pm
Catholic v. Johns Hopkins at 3:30 pm

Williams v. Ohio Northern at 11 am
*Kenyon v W&L at 1:30 pm

*Amherst v Mary Washington at 11 am
SUNY Oneonta v. Bowdoin at 1:30 pm

Round 4

Winners of Chicago region play at 2 pm
Winners of Stevens region play at 3 pm
Winners of Kenyon region play at 1 pm
Winners of Amherst region play at 1 pm

So much for staggering. At least they don't have all the sectional finals starting at the same time.

This is by design, the NCAA has prescribed start times in the manual and the schools stick to it unless there is a demonstrable conflict (like a Saturday afternoon football game that pushes the soccer games to a night time start). Day games start at 11 AM, night games at 5 PM.

Not to mention the fact that many/most of these D3 schools do not have lights and they need to finish before dark. That didn't happen at Bowdoin in Maine on Saturday, but that's certainly a likely possibility when the northernmost school remaining (Husson notwithstanding) earns the right to host and a game is significantly delayed by injury requiring an ambulance. Learn to roll with it and deal with whatever obstacles you find in your way. Vassar managed just fine, Babson not so much. Darkness, rain, a bad ref, an overly physical opponent, and perhaps even locusts--whatever it takes, it isn't easy to win this tournament. No excuses, just leave it all out there.

Saint_Dad

Quote from: LL_Alum on November 13, 2022, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4

Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score.  The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.

4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back.  It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area.  But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door.  Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take

Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets. 

Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.


I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.

They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.

Yes LL_Alum. 
Very similar situation.  SLU seemed to be intimidated from the start (even the coach), with two starters from Saturday's game sitting, most likely because of their size, or lack of.  A tall freshman defender who had only played in 7 games all year, was sent to the wolves (mammoths)  because of his 6'3" frame.  The poor kid immediately got beat and made a desperate slide tackle and yellow card foul right outside the box which led to first goal just 1:20 seconds into the game.  His NCAA game lasted all of 80 seconds as he seemed to pull his hamstring (was on crutches from the sidelines the rest of the game) and was helped off the field by the fouled player and good sportsman Ada Okorogheye.
The intimidation, physical size, and constant fouling and some dirty play was not something that SLU was used to.  It took 30 minutes and a 3-0 scoreline to wake the SLU players, who could have been very sleepy from being woken up, and made to go outside from the 4am fire alarm at their hotel.  Amherst also led in fouls, 26-12.  They led 1-0 in kicking a player when on the ground (Laurens ten Cate).  The refs let them play and they still got 26 fouls, to SLU's 12.  A quicker whistle would certainly have helped SLU.  Multiple fouls by players don't seem to give yellow cards either.  When SLU finally did wake up it was a great game to watch.  SLU played their hearts out.  This was probably the worst matchup in the NCAAs they could have had.  Amherst on their narrow grass field.  I would have given SLU a great shot against any other team in the NCAAs and truly believed, with a little luck, that they could have gone to the final weekend.  Once SLU realized that their talent and technical stills can outplay the size and physicality of Amherst, they were able to outplay them but were not able to put enough goals in the net.  The shorter defender came in and played a great game.  Miles Levy eventually came in and got an assist on a beautiful SLU goal that involved about 6 link up passes until finally a beautiful finish by their Dutch striker.
I'm curious what others think about a style that seems to work for Amherst.  Take a narrow grass field.  Keep the grass long.  Foul constantly and physically intimidate as the refs won't give yellows for accumulation. I believe Amherst leads the county in fouls with 332.  The average for the rest of Nescac teams is just under 200. Of course this ends up in ugly soccer but the name of the game is winning right?  Is this a problem?  Is this a problem with soccer?  Is this a problem with how soccer is refereed?  Is this not a problem at all?  The Amherst coach plays within the rules and wins games.  He is rewarded with winning for using this style of play.  He uses his home field to his advantage.  So why wouldn't he continue?   
How I would have loved to watch the game on their turf field, or any wider field, with a faster whistle.  I actually thought the refs were ok. But with so many fouls and then walking over and kicking a player on the ground, there should be red. 
I hope I don't sound like a sore loser, as SLU knew what they were up against and the coach and players needed to be confident that their talent, toughness and style of play was good enough to beat a bigger, kick, run, and foul team.  Believe me, Amherst is very talented and could easily play a game that shows it off. 
Would love to hear some thoughts?




nescac1

I'm laughing Saint_Dad, because you've summed up about a decade worth of complaints (and both sides of the debate) about Amherst's soccer program, if you scroll through the archives of the NESCAC board.  On the one hand, the coach's personality, the rough / ugly style of play, and the field all receive, to put it mildly, very little love throughout NESCAC (and broader D3 circles, when they are exposed).  But on the other, Amherst wins big and does so consistently, brings in great players consistently, and the players seem (unlike the rest of the league) to enjoy playing for him.  Part of it can be attributed to the fact that it's never fun to lose consistently to any team, but on the other hand, Williams, Midd, Conn and especially Tufts have all had championship eras lead by HOF-caliber coaches over the past 30 years, and there was never the same sort of animosity directed towards any of those programs.  In short, it works for Amherst, but doesn't make a lot of friends outside of Amherst. 

Hopkins92

#507
Every sport will have an organization that decides to lean into the villain status. When you play, it's your team versus the universe, and you see them get increasingly bought into that model as they continue to see good results. It's difficult to maintain, because EVERYONE wants to take you down, but, again all of that hatred and envy makes people play their (Amherst's) match.

The Centennial has a team that is in the Amherst zone, but primarily through their "energetic" bench, applying a lot of pressure, and being unafraid to foul a lot to slow the other team down. It's interesting to note, they don't always play this way. But they sure do crank things up against Hopkins.

As an aside, I went to go watch Hop and F&M play in the CC semis at Haverford some years back (2018?) and remarked on these boards that the Hopkins bench was incredibly flat/quiet. Everyone was sitting, including the coaches. At the time I found it very odd behavior. Hopkins lost, I think 2-1, but it kind of never felt like the boys were in it. Watching them play each other this year, it occurred to me... I think the Hopkins coaches made a very purposeful decision back in 2018 to just not engage with F&M's energy. Don't try to play their game, including all the stuff going on with their bench. I think it resulted in a bit of a flat demeanor in 2018, but this year the Hop bench was livelier, but still... Coaches sitting quietly for long stretches sends a message.

I say all of that to say this: If I'm the opposing coach when playing Amherst, I'm in the refs ear BEFORE the game, pointing out this team (Am.) leads the nation in fouls and be ready with the cards. And I'm reminding him early on during the match. I know sometimes that can backfire, but I think it's worth it against Amherst. And you just have to get your players ready... There just can't be a surprise that they are gonna play like that... I know... Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth... But you have to walk into that game ready for nonsense.

OldNed

Quote from: Saint_Dad on November 14, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
Quote from: LL_Alum on November 13, 2022, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: EnmoreCat on November 13, 2022, 06:22:48 PM
St Lawrence 2 Amherst 4

Sadly work interfered with my viewing in part, but I came away with nothing but respect for the way Saints play and the pro-Saints posters have every reason to be proud of their team. Nevertheless, it's not the first time Amherst has started hot and on the first goal, there were two other players who were ready to score.  The 3-0 scoreline was as much about momentum and Saints really took over about 30 minutes in and at 3-1, I felt nervous, knowing the potency of their attack. The 4th Amherst goal calmed the nerves, but everyone knew it wasn't going to finish 4-1.

4-2 not long into the second half and the Saints' tails were up and the Mammoths were pushed back.  It wasn't always pretty, but ultimately in my clearly biased view it felt like there wasn't lots of dangerous play in Amherst's area.  But of course, it only takes a moment to change that and Saints clearly have players who can unlock that particular door.  Amherst did create chances too and ultimately were rewarded for the ones they did take

Not sure what comes next and it's hard to believe we have seen the last of the upsets. 

Foul count was 26/12 and 4/3 in yellows, well above pace for Amherst.


I was on the RPI team that played Amherst in the Elite 8 in 2019 and had an eerily similar experience. I had never really seen anything like the intensity that Amherst brought to every aspect of the game. My impression of Serpone was that he was kind of an a-hole but that he had his guys firing on all cylinders and operating at their most intimidating. When we played them it was like 40 degees, pouring down rain, their grass field as essentially an unplayable mudpit, but these guys were fired up and swaggering. They had this palpable arrogance about them, like they knew they were the #2 team in the country and they were going to put us down, it was unreal. They scored their first goal and the kid did like a 15 foot knee slide right in front of our bench, and it was just over at that point.

They actually moved the game to the turf at halftime (don't get me started) and we got a goal back and arguably had the run of play in our favor the last 55 minutes or so, but I've got firsthand experience of seeing how their mentality, reputation, and intensity can catch teams off guard and get you boat-raced before you even know what hit you, even in a massively important match. I'm assuming it's a NESCAC thing, that the rivalries there are so intense and the conference is so high-quality that a) the intensity is just at peak levels and b) the top NESCAC teams come out of that conference with a certainty that they're better than anything else in the country has to offer.

Yes LL_Alum. 
Very similar situation.  SLU seemed to be intimidated from the start (even the coach), with two starters from Saturday's game sitting, most likely because of their size, or lack of.  A tall freshman defender who had only played in 7 games all year, was sent to the wolves (mammoths)  because of his 6'3" frame.  The poor kid immediately got beat and made a desperate slide tackle and yellow card foul right outside the box which led to first goal just 1:20 seconds into the game.  His NCAA game lasted all of 80 seconds as he seemed to pull his hamstring (was on crutches from the sidelines the rest of the game) and was helped off the field by the fouled player and good sportsman Ada Okorogheye.
The intimidation, physical size, and constant fouling and some dirty play was not something that SLU was used to.  It took 30 minutes and a 3-0 scoreline to wake the SLU players, who could have been very sleepy from being woken up, and made to go outside from the 4am fire alarm at their hotel.  Amherst also led in fouls, 26-12.  They led 1-0 in kicking a player when on the ground (Laurens ten Cate).  The refs let them play and they still got 26 fouls, to SLU's 12.  A quicker whistle would certainly have helped SLU.  Multiple fouls by players don't seem to give yellow cards either.  When SLU finally did wake up it was a great game to watch.  SLU played their hearts out.  This was probably the worst matchup in the NCAAs they could have had.  Amherst on their narrow grass field.  I would have given SLU a great shot against any other team in the NCAAs and truly believed, with a little luck, that they could have gone to the final weekend.  Once SLU realized that their talent and technical stills can outplay the size and physicality of Amherst, they were able to outplay them but were not able to put enough goals in the net.  The shorter defender came in and played a great game.  Miles Levy eventually came in and got an assist on a beautiful SLU goal that involved about 6 link up passes until finally a beautiful finish by their Dutch striker.
I'm curious what others think about a style that seems to work for Amherst.  Take a narrow grass field.  Keep the grass long.  Foul constantly and physically intimidate as the refs won't give yellows for accumulation. I believe Amherst leads the county in fouls with 332.  The average for the rest of Nescac teams is just under 200. Of course this ends up in ugly soccer but the name of the game is winning right?  Is this a problem?  Is this a problem with soccer?  Is this a problem with how soccer is refereed?  Is this not a problem at all?  The Amherst coach plays within the rules and wins games.  He is rewarded with winning for using this style of play.  He uses his home field to his advantage.  So why wouldn't he continue?   
How I would have loved to watch the game on their turf field, or any wider field, with a faster whistle.  I actually thought the refs were ok. But with so many fouls and then walking over and kicking a player on the ground, there should be red. 
I hope I don't sound like a sore loser, as SLU knew what they were up against and the coach and players needed to be confident that their talent, toughness and style of play was good enough to beat a bigger, kick, run, and foul team.  Believe me, Amherst is very talented and could easily play a game that shows it off. 
Would love to hear some thoughts?

I have to say I didn't see the kick, so I can't comment on that.  I was also surprised that the grass field wasn't in the really bad shape that I assumed it would be, although there was some amount of slipping and sliding by players on both teams.  The fouling and the general antagonistic play by Amherst, though - makes me respect that team and coach less.

Case in point is a play from Saturday I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet - the yellow card on Amherst #17.  #17 got the ball on the wing and controlled it with his hand, the sideline ref immediately signaled a hand ball and the whistle blew and a good 3-4 seconds after the whistle #17 absolutely blasted a shot at the Husson goalie.  And then #17 ran into the goalie and roughed him up - yellow card for #17.  Complete bush league play, but that kind of play seems to be almost accepted by the Amherst coach. 

Hopkins92

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 13, 2022, 07:17:25 PM
Obviously the fans are on the video side but it's an odd look and a little disconcerting to be staring at a pretty large football stadium that looks empty while a NCAA tourney game is being played.

It's built to fill up with lax fans. :D

It is an odd look. I also don't know why more people don't sit over there, especially during day games. Sun hits that sit wonderfully and as you saw, lots of room to spread out.