Official Scoring Consistency

Started by soccerpapa, December 26, 2022, 04:01:59 PM

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soccerpapa

Looking back at the year from a statistical standpoint why is there so much variability in crediting assist(s)?  Why does the NCAA rules give credit for up to 2 assist(s) (ie the hockey assist) yet a good number of schools/conferences do not complete the official scoring this way and only look at the traditional one assist way of scoring.

The inconsistency with the way assists are credited make it difficult to compare scoring leaders, post season awards etc.


NoSuchThingAsOffsides

The variability comes from the fact there are how many different SIDs using an even greater number of rotating student workers assisting. It is also subjective per the manual.

"An assist should not be credited on a play when the goal scorer makes a move on a defensive player after receiving the pass before shooting unless, in the opinion of the statistician, it was the pass itself and not the maneuver that led directly to the shot"

some coaches will go back after the fact and look to add the 2nd assist (or 1st if they somehow missed it - though I think most schools default to giving the assist to the passing player even if the scorer takes on 5 players to score). 

I would wager with the way most soccer is played at the collegiate level there are not as many 2 assist goals per the rulebook as one might think.

soccerpapa

I agree and that was my point.   It's hard enough to have consistency with 1 assist let alone trying to score 2 assists accurately/consistently across the board.   

This also leads, in my opinion, to some coaches looking to add assists to pad the stats with the thinking that more assists equals more recognition for player, which leads to more recognition for coaching staff, for the school and ultimately recruiting.  Not to say they are going outside the rules but as we have noted the rules are open to interpretation.

Hard to compare when so much variability. 

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

The fact two assists are allowed is something that bugs the hell out of me ... but ... anyway ...

The ability to have two assists is restricted to specific instances, though I have seen some fudge that WAY too much. Great example of a two-assist goal would be a corner or some set piece where after the ball is kicked a player goes up and flicks it on with his head directly to the goal scorer who immediately shoots and scores. The guy who kicked it and the guy who flicked it on get assists because it was bang-bang in terms of how it played out.

Too many times I've seen a second assist given to someone like a defender who boots it downfield to a midfield, perhaps, who takes a few dribbles, then decides they have a teammate they can get it to ahead and they then boot it to them - and a goal results. That should be one assist.

Too many are given out in that circumstance and as a former player, it bugs the hell out of me. And I have questioned it with the person doing the stats. More times than not the coaches are putting pressure on SIDs to aware extra assists to try and inflate resumes of players for post-season (or even in-season) awards - which is pathetic in my opinion.

FYI - there is a hockey-style way of getting an assist that is mind blowing to me. If a person shoots on goal and the goalie makes a save, but gives up the rebound and another person comes in and scores ... technically the shooter gets the assist ... even though that was clearly NOT the intent.

As for why the NCAA allows such things ... that's based on the sport and the committees that make up the groups that decide such things. Coaching associations are known to put pressure to keep such things.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 17, 2023, 04:29:20 PM
FYI - there is a hockey-style way of getting an assist that is mind blowing to me. If a person shoots on goal and the goalie makes a save, but gives up the rebound and another person comes in and scores ... technically the shooter gets the assist ... even though that was clearly NOT the intent.

It's not a matter of intent. It's a matter of causation. The idea is that the goal scorer only scored in the first place because: a) the ball had rebounded to him, courtesy of a shot that led to a difficult save that forced the goalkeeper to spill the rebound; and b) the goalkeeper was incapacitated or moved out of position by making that save.

Intent does not determine scoring credit. F'rinstance, I've seen plenty of balls that were clearly sent into the box as service bounce unstopped into the goal. They're credited just as much as goals for the inadvertent goal scorer as are the ones that he obviously was deliberate about striking on goal.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

soccerpapa

I tend to agree with what has been said.  Stats/assists are open to interpretation and some schools intentionally inflate, others unknowingly may inflate, and yet others don't give credit where credit is due. 

It will never happen in D3 soccer but until there is standardization in awarding assists it is very difficult to compare players across 400+ teams for awards.  Unfortunately goals/assists are a large part of offensive awards but that is another topic.   

Regarding causation versus intent.   
Greg:  Based on what you said do you think a player that gets fouled in penalty box should get an assist if a teammate scores on the ensuing PK?

Gregory Sager

No, for two reasons:

* There is no direct physical connection within the run of play from foul to goal scored. The awarding of a penalty kick, while obviously an offensive advantage in its own right, creates an entirely different set of circumstances vis-a-vis what the goalkeeper does and what the penalty kicker does than the run-of-play incident that precipitated it. IOW, the causation link is broken when the referee whistles the play dead.

* Assists are based upon positive plays by the assister (i.e., setup passes), rather than negative plays by an opposing player. In other words, credit has to be earned by the offensive player, not given away by the defensive player. That's why 5.1 of the NCAA soccer statisticians' manual says:

QuoteA player is credited with an assist when he makes, in
the opinion of the statistician, a pass contributing directly to a goal.

The same principle is at work in 5.7:

QuoteA player is not credited with an assist if that player's
possession is terminated by an opposing defender's tackle.
A.R. 5. Adams dribbles down the middle. Bartlett's slide
tackle knocks the ball toward Aristotle, who then scores.
RULING: No assist is given. It was not Adams' intent to pass
the ball, nor to score. Rather, the ball was simply knocked
away by the defender.

Referring back to Dave McHugh's earlier post, 5.7 is about intent and causation. And in this case, the causation leading to the goal was a defensive mistake (or an accident of physics, if you prefer) rather than a positive play by the attacker that should be statistically rewarded with an assist.

"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

soccerpapa

Greg:  Agreed - you just brought the reasoning/clarification to it.

I guess my reasoning for bringing scoring up in a post (hit a nerve) is when I hear ....

"so and so should have been an all american they had x goals and y assists this year" and as we have all agreed assists are somewhat subjectively assigned in the current system.

Gregory Sager

I sometimes wonder if everybody who works as a D3 soccer game scorer is conversant with the rules for assigning assists.

Our SID at North Park does most of our game scorer work, and he's pretty much memorized Section 5 of the soccer statisticians' manual.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell