Mid-Atlantic Region

Started by Mid-Atlantic Fan, August 29, 2017, 02:44:32 PM

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blooter442

Quote from: Falconer on September 03, 2018, 05:06:50 PM
A few days ago, I expressed my concerns about moving West to target from the wing, underscoring the obvious drawbacks of removing from the outside a guy who really can't be guarded there by a D3 defender. However, I also noted one possible benefit: putting him as target suggests that the Falcons might now start playing some dump and run--which, historically, they just never do.

Assuming Messiah continues to play 4-3-3 as I've observed them do, could it also be that his move to "target," which I call Center Forward or CF, is being done to keep the opposition on their toes?

It may sound illogical, but let me explain: I've seen a number of three-man forward lines have one designated CF. However, said CF will consistently overlap and change positions with his fellow forwards as to drag defenders out of position and make it more difficult to track and mark attackers. Of course, in soccer, positions are relative (you can look at a heat map or "average position" map of a given professional team and see a given player's average position(s) on a field can be far different from what you might imagine). However, as commonly mentioned, West has unreal speed and has been traditionally deployed on the wing, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he could still play a role out wide. Either way, while Messiah has certainly been a possession-based team in the past, it certainly doesn't hurt to have a more direct strategy to be able to pull out of the bag of tricks.

lastguyoffthebench

#451
Quote from: Falconer on September 02, 2018, 08:51:28 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on September 02, 2018, 07:37:48 PM
He's not getting a card there unless the shot is not a goal.  If the foul is called, card comes out...

Actually great discipline by the ref to keep with the slow whistle and not blow for the foul immediately as some do.

That's interesting, if correct. I don't know soccer rules in minute detail, and I'd like to know more about this type of situation, in which a goal is scored despite an apparently cardable offense. It sounds wrong to me, that a player wouldn't be carded simply b/c an opponent scored anyway. For instance, if a player receives a red card for a foul in the penalty area, the fouled man gets a PK, which usually results in a goal. So--in a situation (say) in which a man is flat pulled down in front of the goal, and he manages to score despite the manhandling, isn't the defender still sent off? If not, why not? What made his totally unacceptable behavior suddenly acceptable?

If there is a specific rule you have in mind here, lastguy, please quote the rule for the benefit of ignorant guy (me). I would be obliged to you for the education.

Incidentally, many years ago I saw a tournament game in which a GK came out of his goal, wrapped his arms around the other team's striker (who had the ball by himself in front of the goal, but wasn't moving toward the goal), and wrestle him to the ground. If memory serves, for some reason the keeper didn't get a straight red, although there was a PK awarded and I think also a YC. Maybe my memory is just worse than last month (it probably is, given my age), but shouldn't that type of play require a straight red?


If a player gets man-handled and still scores, unless serious foul play/violent conduct, you may see a card/you may not.   There are rules and there are laws.  Laws are for interpretation.  While it might be a cardable offense, it is a case by case basis, in the opinion of the referee.  In most scenarios, after the goal is scored where advantage is applied, the ref will talk to the player and acknowledge what happened.   In other situations, you may see a cardable offence, where the referee applies an advantage, but waits until a stoppage to caution the player.  If there is serious foul play or a violent conduct type situation, unless there is a TRUE goal scoring opportunity, play is stopped and RED issued immediately. 

The DOGSO (denial of obvious goal scoring opportunity) has changed with the landscape of soccer to avoid triple whammies (Red Card, PK, Suspension), not to mention a likely goal being scored.   The only time a Red Card is issued is if the defender is not making an attempt to play the ball, deliberate handling to stop a goal, pushing/pulling/holding, or if there is serious foul play/violent conduct.  Last defender doesn't even apply, as long as there is attempt to play the ball.  NOW, if the player was tackled OUTSIDE the box in a DOGSO situation, with the same criteria, you're going to see the Red Card come out, because there is no triple whammy.

You are correct with your assumption regarding the play with the GK wrapping up the player and bringing him to the ground.  Should have been a red card then as well as now... NO attempt to play the ball. 

Mid-Atlantic Fan

Very very early assessment after the opening weekend of play for this region...

1. Hopkins 2-0-0---We will know more when tested with a stretch of MW, Drew, @York, @Fords, and Getty. Also have Messiah later in the year which could be a crucial game for both teams
2. Messiah 1-0-1---Injury plagued to start the year but showed resilience in game 1 to fight back for a tie vs a national contender in Cortland. The Falcons will be just fine. 
3. F&M 2-0-0---Two very impressive wins for the Diplomats. They have lost just once in their last 11 games dating back to last season. 
4. Scranton 2-0-0---Two solid wins to open the year with plenty of goals. Look for the Royals to push Drew in the Landmark this year.
5. Lycoming 1-0-1---Solid start for the Warriors as they earn two shutouts on the road and remain unbeaten. An early test with Carnegie Mellon will tell us more.
6. Dickinson 1-0-1---Solid start for the Red Devils as they battled Babson to a 1-1 draw. The next 3 prove difficult and we will see how they handle the early challenges.
7. Eastern 2-0-0---Two wins for the Eagles but were outplayed vs York and survived thanks to a PK. They won't be tested until early October so we will circle back then.
8. Haverford 1-0-0---A nice start for the new head coach but the real tests will be next week with a 4 game stretch of @Stevens,, JHU, @Rowan, and @F&M.   
9. Drew 1-1-0---A shocking loss to Centenary could prove costly this early in the year. An early season clash with  JHU becomes that much more crucial for the Rangers.
10. Keystone 1-1-0---A big win over Etown and a hard fought battle with Dickinson has the Giants cracking the top 10 after the opening weekend games.

Mid-Atlantic Fan

http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/men-atlantic-spotlight/2018/altantic-spotlight_wk1

Nice summary from the D3Soccer website which includes multiple teams from the region. Well done!

Falconer

+K for you, lastguy, as my thanks for that explanation.

Ejay

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 04, 2018, 12:20:47 PM
http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/men-atlantic-spotlight/2018/altantic-spotlight_wk1

Nice summary from the D3Soccer website which includes multiple teams from the region. Well done!


Indeed.  And I love the upcoming games of interest.  So many big match-ups early in the season

Emory challenges the NJAC squaring off against Rutgers-Camden on the 8th and Rowan on the 9th.
Drew journeys to Johns Hopkins
Stevens visits Oneonta
Lycoming visits Carnegie Mellon
Lynchburg visits Christopher Newport
Oglethorpe entertains Mary Hardin-Baylor
Messiah travels to Montclair State

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Falconer on September 02, 2018, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 02, 2018, 02:00:36 PM
Quote from: Falconer on September 02, 2018, 08:57:36 AM
Video of Joe King's outstanding run and shoot goal vs Cortland is here: https://www.facebook.com/MessiahMensSoccer/videos/2176501185930932/

Also note the cardable tackle as he shot--which wasn't even called a foul. This one is in addition to the ones I specifically mentioned in my beef. The Cortland player who did this (who appears to be wearing number 4) shouldn't be allowed to play his next game. I invite other opinions, but I content this is yet one more example of incompetent officiating that night, with dangerous consequences for the players on the receiving end of unpenalized illegal plays.

I don't necessarily agree with that being cardable. The player made an attempt at the ball and block the shot well in advance and was committed before the shot was even taken. He is well in front of the player and half his body has slide past before there is even contact. It is all in front and it isn't like he drove through the shooter's legs with a cleat. I think that is a clean play and see it all of the time. I think you may be watching the game through particular colored glasses and maybe no Falcon player should ever be touched? I kid, I honestly am kidding, but I don't agree with your assessment on this play.

Thank you for offering a second opinion, Dave. I left +K for making the case well for an alternative view.

This may be a matter of interpretation, and as someone (apparently) in the college sports business you are in general more qualified than me to render an opinion. However, in this instance, we probably agree on the crucial detail--if not, please (again) express dissent. The defender did not make contact with the ball, and he did make a lot of contact with the shooter. According to Jim Allen, a well known instructor of soccer officials, the play should have been penalized. (Allen is identified here: https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/03/17/11/26/u-s-soccer-national-referee-instructor-and-national-assessor-jim-allen-named-2004-eddie-pearson-awar.)

Allen made the comments below about legal and illegal slide tackles on this site: http://www.askasoccerreferee.com/when-is-a-slide-tackle-legal-or-illegal/. The boldface type is my editorial addition.

"The referee must judge whether the tackle of an opponent is fair or whether it is careless, reckless, or involves the use of excessive force. Making contact with the opponent before the ball when making a tackle is unfair and should be penalized. On the other hand, the fact that contact with the ball was made first does not automatically mean that the tackle is fair. The declaration by a player that he or she "got the ball first" is irrelevant if, while tackling for the ball, the player carelessly, recklessly, or with excessive force commits any of the prohibited actions. Remember that it is not a foul if a sliding tackle is successful and the player whose ball was tackled away then falls over the tackler's foot.

"How can tackles become illegal? There are many ways but two of the most common are by making contact with the opponent first (before contacting the ball) and by striking the opponent with a raised upper leg before, during, or after contacting the ball with the lower leg. Referees must be vigilant and firm in assessing any tackle, because the likely point of contact is the lower legs of the opponent and this is a particularly vulnerable area. We must not be swayed by protests of "But I got the ball, ref" and we must be prepared to assess the proper penalty for misconduct where that is warranted."

On this basis, Dave, I think that tackle was illegal. I see no evidence in that (admittedly low quality) video that the defender ever touched the ball at all, let alone before he made contact with the shooter. If this is accurate conclusion, then it's a card, in which case you've made the argument for yellow rather than red.

I take your joke about thinking that Falcons should never be touched in the spirit offered. I certainly don't believe such a silly idea. I simply take umbrage when officials consistently fail to call cardable offenses--the types of plays that can and do injure players, whether those players are Falcons, Blue Jays, Eagles, or Robins. Now, I admit, I might show less umbrage if they happen to be Bears or Wolverines or Vikings or Pirates or Raiders. I do have a certain preference for birds. Just sayin'.   :o

Responding just so you (or anyone) doesn't think I've disappeared or something. I've just been pretty busy. Had a few soccer games to call, plus other sports, plus other responsibilities. I will read through this in more detail in the future, but just to reaffirm, I just didn't see the play in the same manner. However, I will go back and confirm what I saw again when things slow down ... for a few days. LOL
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Mid-Atlantic Fan

A big game for two teams facing off this weekend is Etown traveling to Rutgers-Newark. The Bluejays come in to the contest 0-1-1 with a full week of rest under their belts and really need any kind of result. Meanwhile, the Raiders also are in a spot where a result is necessary after dropping 2 of their 3 games and a challenging NJAC schedule awaits. If either of these teams wants a shot at an at-large bid they need to take care of business in this one. A tie does harm both but would still keep both alive, but a loss can be devastating for either side. We are less than 5 matches in and some contests are already going to have a lasting impact on what we see at the season's end.

Mid-Atlantic Fan

Must Watch Weekend Games
Catholic @ Buffalo State
Lycoming @ Carnegie Mellon
Dickinson @ Lynchburg
Wesleyan @ Haverford
Mary Washington @ Hopkins
Washington & Lee @ Franklin & Marshall
Keystone @ Lebanon Valley
Catholic @ Fredonia State
Cortland St @ Scranton
Etown @ Newark
Dickinson @ Roanoke
Messiah @ Montclair
William Patterson @ Haverford
Drew at Hopkins
Stockton at Franklin & Marshall
Gettysburg @ Newark


Ejay

Wow! These are some great early season match-ups!

rudy

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 06, 2018, 01:22:17 PM
Must Watch Weekend Games
Catholic @ Buffalo State
Lycoming @ Carnegie Mellon
Dickinson @ Lynchburg
Wesleyan @ Haverford
Mary Washington @ Hopkins
Washington & Lee @ Franklin & Marshall
Keystone @ Lebanon Valley
Catholic @ Fredonia State
Cortland St @ Scranton
Etown @ Newark
Dickinson @ Roanoke
Messiah @ Montclair
William Patterson @ Haverford
Drew at Hopkins
Stockton at Franklin & Marshall
Gettysburg @ Newark

Lycoming looks like they will fall to CMU 2-0 with a few minutes to go. Good result for CMU.

Falconer

Messiah leads Montclair, 3-0, midway through the second half. The first half was back and forth, with both teams possessing well and generating some scoring chances, but the Falcons got the only goal. the quality of the stream is poor, such that I can tell who the players are only by already knowing what they usually look like as moving blobs, not b/c I can clearly see anything more than that. I think they said Luis Plaza had that goal, which appeared to be a rocket on the run outside the box.

Falcons dominating the second half. The official has it all well under control, so although the game is physical it doesn't appear to be a slugfest. Hard to tell for sure given the images.

Montclair was well organized earlier, but now they seem to be tiring and breaking down as the Falcons have substituted very liberally in both halves.

Falconer

Montclair gets new wind and scores with numbers in the box, then Nick West gets a goal (might be his second today, but it's just to hard to tell) when he beats a defender and goes through the keeper on a counterattack. 4-1 Falcons with unknown time left--no clock visible on the video.

Falconer

Falcons get one more--unclear who, when they prevent Montclair from clearing out of their own end. Game over now, 5-1 final. Huge win for the Falcons over a very good team on the road.

Mid-Atlantic Fan

Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 06, 2018, 01:22:17 PM
Must Watch Weekend Games
Friday:
Catholic @ Buffalo State-----Buff St wins 2-1
Lycoming @ Carnegie Mellon----CMU wins 2-1
Dickinson @ Lynchburg----Lynchburg wins 4-3 in a thriller!
Saturday:
Wesleyan @ Haverford---Fords survive 2-1 in OT
Mary Washington @ Hopkins---MW upsets JHU 2-1 in OT
Washington & Lee @ Franklin & Marshall---F&M storms back for a 2-1 win
Keystone @ Lebanon Valley---Leb Val wins a shootout 4-2
Catholic @ Fredonia State---Catholic rebounds with a 2-0 win
Cortland St @ Scranton---Scranton loses a nail biter 1-0
Etown @ Newark---Newark trounces Etown 3-0
Dickinson @ Roanoke---Dickinson captures a nice 1-0 win
Messiah @ Montclair---Messiah destroys MSU 5-1
Sunday:
William Patterson @ Haverford
Drew at Hopkins
Stockton at Franklin & Marshall
Gettysburg @ Newark

Other games of significance that weren't listed was Eastern losing 2-1 vs William Patterson and Gettysburg losing 2-1 vs TCNJ.