FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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jamtod

Quote from: bleedpurple on November 18, 2018, 11:09:21 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 PM
Quote from: Marmac on November 18, 2018, 10:26:43 PM

Surprising that UST and Bethel are a combined 10-0 but SJU is 1-4. Noteworthy that, among these top conferences, only UWW has more 2nd round appearances than NCC. I suspect only 3 or 4 schools have more wins than NCC since 2006: Mount Union, UWW, MHB, and ...?
UST would have to be also, given the round 2 wins and a few championship appearances. I wonder where Linfield falls given the frequency of facing UMHB.
Wesley?

Probably. That independent record on the regional articles was pretty solid, and mostly tied to Wesley I believe. I'm assuming we are talking playoff wins here, not just total wins.

thewaterboy

Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 18, 2018, 11:14:06 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on November 18, 2018, 11:09:21 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 PM
Quote from: Marmac on November 18, 2018, 10:26:43 PM

Surprising that UST and Bethel are a combined 10-0 but SJU is 1-4. Noteworthy that, among these top conferences, only UWW has more 2nd round appearances than NCC. I suspect only 3 or 4 schools have more wins than NCC since 2006: Mount Union, UWW, MHB, and ...?
UST would have to be also, given the round 2 wins and a few championship appearances. I wonder where Linfield falls given the frequency of facing UMHB.
Wesley?

Probably. That independent record on the regional articles was pretty solid, and mostly tied to Wesley I believe. I'm assuming we are talking playoff wins here, not just total wins.
Wesley had a pretty nice streak going from 2005-17. The only teams that had maintained longer consecutive playoff runs were Mount and UMHB. In that span, Wesley had gone 13-0 in the first round. 10-3 in the second round. 6-4 in the quarterfinals, and a disappointing 0-6 in semifinal games.

kiko

Quote from: Marmac on November 18, 2018, 10:26:43 PM
Quote from: ncc_fan on November 18, 2018, 09:51:12 PM
Quote from: kiko on November 18, 2018, 05:43:42 PM
Quote from: Marmac on November 18, 2018, 04:45:22 PM
Quote from: kiko on November 18, 2018, 02:18:37 PM
Quote from: CardinalAlum on November 18, 2018, 01:40:38 PM
NCC will officially host Bethel at Noon on Saturday.

From my POV, this will be the most important game the Cardinals play all season, irrespective of how far they do/don't advance in the playoffs.  (No disrespect intended to the folks in Wheaton or Bloomington.)

North Central is 10-1 in opening round games in the Thorne era, but only 2-7 in the second round:

2006, Away - Capital 41, North Central 13
2007, Away - Whitewater 59, North Central 28
2008, Home - Franklin 38, North Central 28
2010, Home - North Central 28, Ohio Northern 9
2011, Away - Wabash 29, North Central 28
2012, Away - Linfield 30, North Central 14
2013, Home - North Central 52, Platteville 24
2016, Home - Wheaton 31, North Central 14
2017, Away - Oshkosh 42, North Central 21

The Cardinals have proven they can consistently win in the opening round... the competition clearly gets better in a hurry in round two in this part of the country, but it's not always purple in quality.  The program has come so far in this era from what it once was, and there is more talent up and down the roster than even 5-6 years ago.  Bethel will be a handful, but this is a great opportunity for the program to start taking that next step up the ladder on a consistent basis.

The 2-7 record is disappointing -- particularly the losses to Franklin, Wabash, and Wheaton. But given that NCC never made the playoffs pre-Thorne, I tip my hat to the father and son for getting NCC to the 2nd round of the playoffs 10 times the past 13 seasons. That's a tremendous accomplishment.

No doubt.  The program is unrecognizable from what it once was, and that is a mammoth accomplishment.  There are a few levels above where they are today, though, and I would love to see them take that next step.

Five of the second round losses have been on the road, where the Cardinals were underdogs.  (There were losses in winnable regular season games a few times that pushed the Cardinals into tougher playoff path assignments.)  The home losses in 2008 and 2016 are games I look at as the biggest missed opportunities, albeit against very good non-purple opponents.  This one is also at home, which is why I regard it as such a critical test of progress for the program.
For comparison, here are the 2nd round records of other MIAC, ARC, CCIW, and WIAC teams over the same time period (2006-2017).  I've included only teams with more than one result.

Bethel       3-0
SJU          1-4
UST          7-0
Coe           0-2
Wartburg   3-1
Wheaton   2-4
UWO         4-0
UWW       10-0

Surprising that UST and Bethel are a combined 10-0 but SJU is 1-4. Noteworthy that, among these top conferences, only UWW has more 2nd round appearances than NCC. I suspect only 3 or 4 schools have more wins than NCC since 2006: Mount Union, UWW, MHB, and ...?

Oshkosh has 12 playoff wins since 2012.

Linfield has 17 playoff wins since 2006, and another 8 in the four years immediately preceding this window.

I don't pay enough attention to anything East of Mount Union, so idk if anyone there other than Wesley has had sustained success.

New Tradition

How much do you guys think NCC's second round woes have to do with the complete disruption of their rhythm as a result of the trimester schedule, making it coincide with finals week? Also, throw in Thanksgiving for good measure. When they do make it past the second round, they have had decent success in the third round, stomping Bethel in MN in 2013 and leading Whitewater going into the 4th quarter in 2010. Furthermore, do you guys think the switch to semesters next year might alleviate this situation?
I am a NATIONAL Champion, and I refuse to lose!

2015 CCIW Pickem Champ
2015 WIAC Playoff Pickem Champ

Marmac

Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 18, 2018, 11:14:06 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on November 18, 2018, 11:09:21 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 PM
Quote from: Marmac on November 18, 2018, 10:26:43 PM

Surprising that UST and Bethel are a combined 10-0 but SJU is 1-4. Noteworthy that, among these top conferences, only UWW has more 2nd round appearances than NCC. I suspect only 3 or 4 schools have more wins than NCC since 2006: Mount Union, UWW, MHB, and ...?
UST would have to be also, given the round 2 wins and a few championship appearances. I wonder where Linfield falls given the frequency of facing UMHB.
Wesley?

Probably. That independent record on the regional articles was pretty solid, and mostly tied to Wesley I believe. I'm assuming we are talking playoff wins here, not just total wins.

Apologies, I meant total wins, not playoff wins. Rereading what I wrote, I can see that it's unclear.

formerd3db

#36485
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on November 18, 2018, 09:36:25 PM
I don't really follow EMU much at all - my memories are too mixed, and that's my son's job (son #2 is an EMU grad, and current grad student there).  But I do know they've become bowl-eligible again.  Chris Creighton seems to be just what the doctor ordered!  I never thought it possible, with the Big House just 8 miles away!  (I do know they try to avoid competing head-to-head with UM games - either not schedule home game vs. home games, or at least do day vs. night or vice-versa.)

I'm not sure that EMU football is an appropriate topic on the CCIW page! ::)

Come on, Mr. Y, my friend, there are a lot of topics that are not appropriate for all these boards!😀 Besides, it is the one way I know how to get your attention quicker in asking your opinions on various questions!☺ IMO, all football topics for all divisions (despite this being a DIII site) are relevant on these boards!

In all seriousness, though, I know your past opinions as to what may or may not have been possible at Eastern. You are one of the person's in a position to know better than the rest of us, obviously. That said, I am glad to see they are having some better success now, although I must admit that I was slightly a skeptic about that as you were when Coach C was hired. Moreover, I have always been one to root for underdogs and programs (Eastern,Wayne State, etc.) that have had a tough time, especially like those that are bashed by other people and opponents and opponents' fans. Specifically, I remember back when other MAC schools were calling for Eastern to be kicked out of the league in the mid-1980s. It became quite nasty, particularly from the Central Michigan people, including their football staff and school administration. So I was very elated that year as all of this was going on, when Eastern kicked Central's arse in their game and went on to win the league AND the California Bowl that same year. Of course, you and others here are well awareof Eastern's trials and tribulations since then. But, again, it is good to see that there is some marked improvement and hope/enthusiasm there, including with fans. Their innovative ways, as you have mentioned, have certainly helped.

Okay, so my apologies for this digression on your board!😀 We have had a rather paltry year on ours, so I jumped over here occasionally of recent! Anyway, I will now return to the normal DIII programming of topics!

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to you and all the CCIW colleagues here on this board.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Stagg Again!!

Quote from: kiko on November 18, 2018, 02:18:37 PM
Quote from: CardinalAlum on November 18, 2018, 01:40:38 PM
NCC will officially host Bethel at Noon on Saturday.

From my POV, this will be the most important game the Cardinals play all season, irrespective of how far they do/don't advance in the playoffs.  (No disrespect intended to the folks in Wheaton or Bloomington.)

North Central is 10-1 in opening round games in the Thorne era, but only 2-7 in the second round:

2006, Away - Capital 41, North Central 13
2007, Away - Whitewater 59, North Central 28
2008, Home - Franklin 38, North Central 28
2010, Home - North Central 28, Ohio Northern 9
2011, Away - Wabash 29, North Central 28
2012, Away - Linfield 30, North Central 14
2013, Home - North Central 52, Platteville 24
2016, Home - Wheaton 31, North Central 14
2017, Away - Oshkosh 42, North Central 21

The Cardinals have proven they can consistently win in the opening round... the competition clearly gets better in a hurry in round two in this part of the country, but it's not always purple in quality.  The program has come so far in this era from what it once was, and there is more talent up and down the roster than even 5-6 years ago.  Bethel will be a handful, but this is a great opportunity for the program to start taking that next step up the ladder on a consistent basis.

Kiko, this is a great listing.  I have a few comments and a question.  I was either at or received first had information in relation to all of these games.  First, IMO, the Capital, UWW and Oshkosh games were games where NCC was a significant underdog to a highly ranked team on the road.  I believe that those were stretch games for the Cardinals, and the outcome shows that.  Second, the games against Franklin and Wabash were definitely winnable, but were impacted by in-game injuries (Fanthorpe in the Franklin game and Dierking in the Wabash game) and phenomenal QB play by the opponent (Rupp... damn, he was good, and Burke).  Those are two games that I am sure the Cards would like back.  The Linfield game got out of control in the 2Q and 3Q and was over and the Wheaton game... well we don't need to talk about that.  If things broke NCC's way in every game, the best they would have been is 6-3 or 5-4 during the second round. 

Have you analyzed the third round games that the Cardinals have played in and compared their record to other top teams?  I think it would be interesting to see.  I don't see a ton of value in looking too deeply at the first round in detail as North Central and the other top 10 teams in the country have generally taken care of business... as they should have!  The only comment I have on that front is that the first round record includes victories over #6 St. Johns in 2017 and #8 Cal Lutheran (on the road) in 2012.  Both of these had the look and feel of second round opponents and could be factored into the second round analysis.

hazzben

Below is my rundown of BU from the ARC before Rd 1.

Quote from: hazzben on November 12, 2018, 02:55:38 PM
Here's my take on Bethel:

  • D is really legit. Kilgore at DE is a beast, but the whole line is physical. Linebackers make a lot of plays and are athletic. [Edit: 10 sacks vs. Wart]
  • Secondary is probably the best unit on the team. #7 SS Dawson Brown is our MVP imo. They are a really big, fast, physical unit. I think this is the best secondary we've ever had.
  • OLine is physical and did very well against UST's speed up front last week. Best line we've had in several years.
  • WR corp doesn't have any AA type guys, but 3-4 different weapons that can all take the top off a D and are capable of making big catches. And they have surprising length. RB Gilach is very solid. [Edit: #22 is a Gopher transfer that plays at both LB and RB, had several TD's against Wart]
  • Roste at QB has come a long ways. Gophers transfer who is a load at 6'3" 235, but also fast for his size. They can get really creative going empty since he's still a run threat, but doesn't need a lead blocker. His passing (and confidence throwing and in the offense) has improved every week. He's gonna be really good by the time it's all said and done.
  • Very physical team playing with a lot of confidence. They've got an identity and play really good, complimentary football. Built to play in the cold.
  • Kicking game has been inconsistent. New guy did PAT's vs. Augsburg and we might have finally turned a corner. Roste also does a quick kick on 4th down that can be effective flipping the field.

Love to hear a similar breakdown of NCC from the CCIW braintrust.

One interesting note, Wart's QB and NCC's were both sitting atop the national stats for Completion % and Passing Efficiency. My assumption is that NCC will be much better up front than Wart was, and that you'll have a stronger running game to complement this. But I'd love the juicy details  ;D

I won't be able to make it in person (family Thanksgiving in NW Iowa), but I did get my first ever look at NCC's campus this summer. Beautiful place.

Also, fun smack talk with a buddy from work who won a few National Titles as a Pole Vaulter for NCC a few years back (his little bro hopes to bring home another this Spring I believe, but my buddy says the vault coach isn't worth his salt  ;) 8-) [this is an inside joke in case you don't know the NCC Vaulting history, fyi]).

USee

NCC preview for Hazzbeen:

Offense is legit. QB is one of the best in the country. Study's the game and knows the opponent as well as anyone. Gets the ball out and knows where to go with it. Offensive line has protected him well. They are still (and always have been) run first (65/35 run pass). If their running game is going (Greenberg is a quick RB (freshman) and Mogalu is a physical downhill type runner behind an athletic online) they will score a lot. NCC's left guard, Sharmore, is the best I have seen in many years as a sophomore. Physical, explosive player and when they need a yard they go behind him.  Very hard to defend. You have to move Rutter off his spot and make him hold the ball as he likes to get it out quick. WR's have great chemistry with Rutter. And he does not make many mistakes.

Defense has a great DT (Hyland) and a great LB in Warkenthein. Secondary has been suspect but much better since the return from injury of Pat Cravens (fifth year all conference Safety). Jake Beasley is a converted WR at corner. He is tall and fast and still learning the position but talented as any DB in the country. Wheaton took advantage of him but he played great against IWU and Millikin (both have great QBs). Their kicker is an all American and special teams are top notch.

If you can control the LOS and keep Rutter off the field, they are beatable. WR's are skilled and have great chemistry with Rutter. If you get a few stops, control their running game and get a lead, they will become one dimensional and that hasn't worked out well for them.

Marmac

Quote from: USee on November 19, 2018, 02:34:37 PM
NCC preview for Hazzbeen:

Offense is legit. QB is one of the best in the country. Study's the game and knows the opponent as well as anyone. Gets the ball out and knows where to go with it. Offensive line has protected him well. They are still (and always have been) run first (65/35 run pass). If their running game is going (Greenberg is a quick RB (freshman) and Mogalu is a physical downhill type runner behind an athletic online) they will score a lot. NCC's left guard, Sharmore, is the best I have seen in many years as a sophomore. Physical, explosive player and when they need a yard they go behind him.  Very hard to defend. You have to move Rutter off his spot and make him hold the ball as he likes to get it out quick. WR's have great chemistry with Rutter. And he does not make many mistakes.

Defense has a great DT (Hyland) and a great LB in Warkenthein. Secondary has been suspect but much better since the return from injury of Pat Cravens (fifth year all conference Safety). Jake Beasley is a converted WR at corner. He is tall and fast and still learning the position but talented as any DB in the country. Wheaton took advantage of him but he played great against IWU and Millikin (both have great QBs). Their kicker is an all American and special teams are top notch.

If you can control the LOS and keep Rutter off the field, they are beatable. WR's are skilled and have great chemistry with Rutter. If you get a few stops, control their running game and get a lead, they will become one dimensional and that hasn't worked out well for them.

Hyland got hurt on a play in the second half against Hanover. He limped off the field, and I don't think he returned. Hope he's okay and ready to go against Bethel.

robertgoulet

Quote from: Marmac on November 19, 2018, 03:30:27 PM
Quote from: USee on November 19, 2018, 02:34:37 PM
NCC preview for Hazzbeen:

Offense is legit. QB is one of the best in the country. Study's the game and knows the opponent as well as anyone. Gets the ball out and knows where to go with it. Offensive line has protected him well. They are still (and always have been) run first (65/35 run pass). If their running game is going (Greenberg is a quick RB (freshman) and Mogalu is a physical downhill type runner behind an athletic online) they will score a lot. NCC's left guard, Sharmore, is the best I have seen in many years as a sophomore. Physical, explosive player and when they need a yard they go behind him.  Very hard to defend. You have to move Rutter off his spot and make him hold the ball as he likes to get it out quick. WR's have great chemistry with Rutter. And he does not make many mistakes.

Defense has a great DT (Hyland) and a great LB in Warkenthein. Secondary has been suspect but much better since the return from injury of Pat Cravens (fifth year all conference Safety). Jake Beasley is a converted WR at corner. He is tall and fast and still learning the position but talented as any DB in the country. Wheaton took advantage of him but he played great against IWU and Millikin (both have great QBs). Their kicker is an all American and special teams are top notch.

If you can control the LOS and keep Rutter off the field, they are beatable. WR's are skilled and have great chemistry with Rutter. If you get a few stops, control their running game and get a lead, they will become one dimensional and that hasn't worked out well for them.

Hyland got hurt on a play in the second half against Hanover. He limped off the field, and I don't think he returned. Hope he's okay and ready to go against Bethel.

Man, seems like every year NCC loses a key player in a playoff game and he's unable to play the next round. Hopefully it's no big deal and he's ready to go!
You win! You always do!

kiko

Quote from: USee on November 19, 2018, 02:34:37 PM
NCC preview for Hazzbeen:

Offense is legit. QB is one of the best in the country. Study's the game and knows the opponent as well as anyone. Gets the ball out and knows where to go with it. Offensive line has protected him well. They are still (and always have been) run first (65/35 run pass). If their running game is going (Greenberg is a quick RB (freshman) and Mogalu is a physical downhill type runner behind an athletic online) they will score a lot. NCC's left guard, Sharmore, is the best I have seen in many years as a sophomore. Physical, explosive player and when they need a yard they go behind him.  Very hard to defend. You have to move Rutter off his spot and make him hold the ball as he likes to get it out quick. WR's have great chemistry with Rutter. And he does not make many mistakes.

Defense has a great DT (Hyland) and a great LB in Warkenthein. Secondary has been suspect but much better since the return from injury of Pat Cravens (fifth year all conference Safety). Jake Beasley is a converted WR at corner. He is tall and fast and still learning the position but talented as any DB in the country. Wheaton took advantage of him but he played great against IWU and Millikin (both have great QBs). Their kicker is an all American and special teams are top notch.

If you can control the LOS and keep Rutter off the field, they are beatable. WR's are skilled and have great chemistry with Rutter. If you get a few stops, control their running game and get a lead, they will become one dimensional and that hasn't worked out well for them.

One thing to add to this:  the Cardinals are young.  Just one starter on offense and three on defense versus Hanover are seniors (I thought it was two on defense but the box shows three), and there are freshmen and sophomores starting and getting meaningful snaps.  This is notable given that they commanded playing time in a program that wasn't short on talent when they arrived.

I don't expect 'young' necessarily means 'inexperienced' at this point in the year given the quality of some of the Cardinals' opponents as well as the team's second round playoff finish last year.

CardinalAlum

Quote from: hazzben on November 19, 2018, 02:19:55 PM
Below is my rundown of BU from the ARC before Rd 1.

Quote from: hazzben on November 12, 2018, 02:55:38 PM
Here's my take on Bethel:

  • D is really legit. Kilgore at DE is a beast, but the whole line is physical. Linebackers make a lot of plays and are athletic. [Edit: 10 sacks vs. Wart]
  • Secondary is probably the best unit on the team. #7 SS Dawson Brown is our MVP imo. They are a really big, fast, physical unit. I think this is the best secondary we've ever had.
  • OLine is physical and did very well against UST's speed up front last week. Best line we've had in several years.
  • WR corp doesn't have any AA type guys, but 3-4 different weapons that can all take the top off a D and are capable of making big catches. And they have surprising length. RB Gilach is very solid. [Edit: #22 is a Gopher transfer that plays at both LB and RB, had several TD's against Wart]
  • Roste at QB has come a long ways. Gophers transfer who is a load at 6'3" 235, but also fast for his size. They can get really creative going empty since he's still a run threat, but doesn't need a lead blocker. His passing (and confidence throwing and in the offense) has improved every week. He's gonna be really good by the time it's all said and done.
  • Very physical team playing with a lot of confidence. They've got an identity and play really good, complimentary football. Built to play in the cold.
  • Kicking game has been inconsistent. New guy did PAT's vs. Augsburg and we might have finally turned a corner. Roste also does a quick kick on 4th down that can be effective flipping the field.

Love to hear a similar breakdown of NCC from the CCIW braintrust.

One interesting note, Wart's QB and NCC's were both sitting atop the national stats for Completion % and Passing Efficiency. My assumption is that NCC will be much better up front than Wart was, and that you'll have a stronger running game to complement this. But I'd love the juicy details  ;D

I won't be able to make it in person (family Thanksgiving in NW Iowa), but I did get my first ever look at NCC's campus this summer. Beautiful place.

Also, fun smack talk with a buddy from work who won a few National Titles as a Pole Vaulter for NCC a few years back (his little bro hopes to bring home another this Spring I believe, but my buddy says the vault coach isn't worth his salt  ;) 8-) [this is an inside joke in case you don't know the NCC Vaulting history, fyi]).

Father knows best?   :D

USee is spot on with his breakdown of NCC.   Kilgore scares me.  His size on the outside will be an issue and will need to be accounted for.   We have to be able to run the ball some to keep the defense honest.  Clarke is every bit the beast described above.  The offensive line is young but has played well.  Looking forward to a great game.   
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hazzben


art76

Quote from: ncc_fan on November 18, 2018, 09:51:12 PM
Quote from: kiko on November 18, 2018, 02:18:37 PM

North Central is 10-1 in opening round games in the Thorne era, but only 2-7 in the second round:

2006, Away - Capital 41, North Central 13
2007, Away - Whitewater 59, North Central 28
2008, Home - Franklin 38, North Central 28
2010, Home - North Central 28, Ohio Northern 9
2011, Away - Wabash 29, North Central 28
2012, Away - Linfield 30, North Central 14
2013, Home - North Central 52, Platteville 24
2016, Home - Wheaton 31, North Central 14
2017, Away - Oshkosh 42, North Central 21

The Cardinals have proven they can consistently win in the opening round... the competition clearly gets better in a hurry in round two in this part of the country, but it's not always purple in quality.  The program has come so far in this era from what it once was, and there is more talent up and down the roster than even 5-6 years ago.  Bethel will be a handful, but this is a great opportunity for the program to start taking that next step up the ladder on a consistent basis.

For comparison, here are the 2nd round records of other MIAC, ARC, CCIW, and WIAC teams over the same time period (2006-2017).  I've included only teams with more than one result.

Bethel       3-0
SJU          1-4
UST          7-0
Coe           0-2
Wartburg   3-1
Wheaton   2-4
UWO         4-0
UWW       10-0

NCC_fan and kiko, thanx for the historical input on the team records for the past decade or so. As a Bethel backer, I hope they can continue their run of wins. This coming weekend's game against the Cardinals will be a veritable dog fight. Both teams like to control the line of scrimmage and both have high caliber players on both sides of the ball. Without sounding like a cliche', turnovers will most likely be the deciders of the game. I am looking forward to this game a lot, mostly because of the intrigue of how similar the current iterations of these two teams are. Might become a classic game for both programs, regardless of who wins the game.
You don't have a soul. You are a soul.
You have a body. - C.S. Lewis