Future of Division III

[jknezek]

I have to admit, this lawsuit makes me laugh. If they had free ride offers, but chose the Ivy League instead... Isn't that on them? Frankly, any D3 school could get sued the same way if they make any money off commercializing athletics (t-shirt sales, radio contracts, fundraising), which I assume most do with limited results.

 But still, this smacks of choosing to buy a house under an airline flight path and then sueing about it when you could have afforded a similar house not under the flight path.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I have to admit, this lawsuit makes me laugh. If they had free ride offers, but chose the Ivy League instead... Isn't that on them? Frankly, any D3 school could get sued the same way if they make any money off commercializing athletics (t-shirt sales, radio contracts, fundraising), which I assume most do with limited results.

 But still, this smacks of choosing to buy a house under an airline flight path and then sueing about it when you could have afforded a similar house not under the flight path.

It's not about the athletes - it's about overturning the entire Ivy financial aid system.

[jknezek]

Not DIII, but it's interesting that they didn't drop to DIII. I've long said there is little financial point in DII and small school DI. Mid-Majors and up? Maybe, depending on how you run your athletics outside of football and basketball. But everyone else, it just has to be a money pit.

When the P5 take their money and run, which I think they will do within the next 10-15 years, I bet we are going to see more and more schools dropping scholarship athletics. Of course, we are also going to see a massive change in DIII as it is going to get real expensive to do those national tournaments.

But I'm shocked St. Francis (NY) did not follow U of Hartford to DIII. At least you can convert your athletic facilities, which they have a few that are on campus and not rented space, to tuition paying student slots.

and edited because I forgot the stupid link:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2023/03/20/st-francis-college-brooklyn-eliminates-entire-athletic-program/11510364002/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0QcNdAhU1ws2jVzp17iLDgjpJcY3dKyvpt-1mouClXfmBT_9c5KkII2p8

[Pat Coleman]

What I have been told is that the Board of Trustees at St. Francis did not want to consider having Division III athletics.

[jknezek]

What I have been told is that the Board of Trustees at St. Francis did not want to consider having Division III athletics.

Interesting. I'd love to know the "why" of that thought. It does look like they are the only tenant of the Generoso Pope Athletic Complex on campus, but it doesn't say if the school owns it or not. No other athletic facilities are listed, so I don't know where the soccer teams play. But if they don't own the Athletic Complex, or they have an operating agreement coming to a close on it, or it's about to fall apart and needs massive renovations (it is 50 years old),  I could see why going DIII wouldn't make much sense. If they do own it, I'm sure it will still be used for intramurals, but hard to imagine that going DIII wouldn't have helped bring in tuition dollars to the school.

Always so interesting when this stuff happens.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I wonder if it has to do with cost? Dropping to D3 essentially means continuing to run a D1 program for 2-3 years, costwise.

[Ron Boerger]

I wonder if it has to do with cost? Dropping to D3 essentially means continuing to run a D1 program for 2-3 years, costwise.

Not to mention that the only significant ongoing cost, that of continuing to provide athletic/academic/financial aid to remaining former athletes for a few years at most, will be cut back even further as many will seek to continue their playing careers elsewhere.

I posted this somewhere else; in the audit ending June 30, 2021 St. Francis' endowment was a miserly $40M, which isn't much for a college of roughly 2,300 in a high-cost spot like the NYC area.  Unless they had substantial fundraising since then the vagaries of the market (combined with operational withdrawals from the endowment) have probably reduced that further - which may have contributed to their decision. 

But I still agree with jknezek; was the possibility even looked at, or was it the loss of "prestige" associated with going to D3?  Or did they look at B-SC, struggling mightily after their journey from D1 to D3, and say it wasn't worth considering?

[jknezek]

I wonder if it has to do with cost? Dropping to D3 essentially means continuing to run a D1 program for 2-3 years, costwise.

Not to mention that the only significant ongoing cost, that of continuing to provide athletic/academic/financial aid to remaining former athletes for a few years at most, will be cut back even further as many will seek to continue their playing careers elsewhere.

I posted this somewhere else; in the audit ending June 30, 2021 St. Francis' endowment was a miserly $40M, which isn't much for a college of roughly 2,300 in a high-cost spot like the NYC area.  Unless they had substantial fundraising since then the vagaries of the market (combined with operational withdrawals from the endowment) have probably reduced that further - which may have contributed to their decision. 

But I still agree with jknezek; was the possibility even looked at, or was it the loss of "prestige" associated with going to D3?  Or did they look at B-SC, struggling mightily after their journey from D1 to D3, and say it wasn't worth considering?

I doubt B-SC sets an example for anyone. That's just a case of significant mismanagement and mistakes on the part of multiple administrations over 20 years, with only one significant exception. It had little to do with dropping to D3 and everything to do with an early "build it and they will come" added to 20 years of accounting errors, and a failure to earn the trust of donors.

I bet most B-SC alumni have spent more on Alabama and Auburn football tickets than they have donated to their alma mater over the years.

[Gregory Sager]

I wonder if it has to do with cost? Dropping to D3 essentially means continuing to run a D1 program for 2-3 years, costwise.

Not to mention that the only significant ongoing cost, that of continuing to provide athletic/academic/financial aid to remaining former athletes for a few years at most, will be cut back even further as many will seek to continue their playing careers elsewhere.

I posted this somewhere else; in the audit ending June 30, 2021 St. Francis' endowment was a miserly $40M, which isn't much for a college of roughly 2,300 in a high-cost spot like the NYC area.  Unless they had substantial fundraising since then the vagaries of the market (combined with operational withdrawals from the endowment) have probably reduced that further - which may have contributed to their decision. 

But I still agree with jknezek; was the possibility even looked at, or was it the loss of "prestige" associated with going to D3?  Or did they look at B-SC, struggling mightily after their journey from D1 to D3, and say it wasn't worth considering?

It's been seventeen years since Birmingham-Southern transitioned from D1 to D3. It's awfully hard to pin a school's financial misfortune upon something that happened a freshman's entire lifetime ago.

[Pat Coleman]

I wonder if it has to do with cost? Dropping to D3 essentially means continuing to run a D1 program for 2-3 years, costwise.

Not to mention that the only significant ongoing cost, that of continuing to provide athletic/academic/financial aid to remaining former athletes for a few years at most, will be cut back even further as many will seek to continue their playing careers elsewhere.

I posted this somewhere else; in the audit ending June 30, 2021 St. Francis' endowment was a miserly $40M, which isn't much for a college of roughly 2,300 in a high-cost spot like the NYC area.  Unless they had substantial fundraising since then the vagaries of the market (combined with operational withdrawals from the endowment) have probably reduced that further - which may have contributed to their decision. 

But I still agree with jknezek; was the possibility even looked at, or was it the loss of "prestige" associated with going to D3?  Or did they look at B-SC, struggling mightily after their journey from D1 to D3, and say it wasn't worth considering?

It's been seventeen years since Birmingham-Southern transitioned from D1 to D3. It's awfully hard to pin a school's financial misfortune upon something that happened a freshman's entire lifetime ago.

I've seen administrations do worse things.

Hartford being the most recent, I wonder if that's what they were trying to avoid -- a large backlash and a lawsuit and all that.

[Ron Boerger]

The Hartford scenario is much more likely, especially given the geographic proximity of the two schools (120 miles) and recency of that change. 

But make no mistake, when looking for a reason not to do something, some will latch on to even far-fetched examples to buttress their case.