FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

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emma17

Quote from: jamtoTommie on May 22, 2019, 06:01:39 PM
Quote from: emma17 on May 22, 2019, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: DuffMan on May 22, 2019, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: hazzben on May 22, 2019, 05:06:25 PM
It's not just some anonymous source cited in the Strib. This is our conference Greg, we are actually pretty tied in to what's going on.

What he said.

Greg, I've find it a little odd that you'd never made a MIAC post prior to this TomToss debacle, yet now you are staking claims as an authority on it.


If St. Thomas' greatest margin of victory over the last five years in-conference was 40 points, even with all their All-Sports titles, would this conversation be happening?

Out of curiosity, and I'm not suggesting it is necessary, but who was the last team to make a nationally competitive playoff run (let's say semifinals) without winning a single game by 40 points or more?

We can debate all day (and have for years) the finer points about the unwritten rules of what sportsmanship entails. We can also agree that there is a certain point at which taking your foot off the gas, benching starters after the first quarter, not letting your guys put it all out on the field (regardless of what the competition is giving to you) hurts you, especially if the aim is national competitiveness.

I need a mulligan on this last post.
I initially meant to joke with Duff that Greg, the ultimate fact checker, might challenge his claim about never posting on this board.

Regarding the 40 points, I'm not suggesting St. T scores too many points. I'm wondering if this issue would have even come up with the MIAC if St. T's greatest margin of victory in-conference was 40 or whatever number is deemed reasonable?



Gregory Sager

Quote from: emma17 on May 22, 2019, 06:14:43 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on May 22, 2019, 06:01:39 PM
Quote from: emma17 on May 22, 2019, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: DuffMan on May 22, 2019, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: hazzben on May 22, 2019, 05:06:25 PM
It's not just some anonymous source cited in the Strib. This is our conference Greg, we are actually pretty tied in to what's going on.

What he said.

Greg, I've find it a little odd that you'd never made a MIAC post prior to this TomToss debacle, yet now you are staking claims as an authority on it.


If St. Thomas' greatest margin of victory over the last five years in-conference was 40 points, even with all their All-Sports titles, would this conversation be happening?

Out of curiosity, and I'm not suggesting it is necessary, but who was the last team to make a nationally competitive playoff run (let's say semifinals) without winning a single game by 40 points or more?

We can debate all day (and have for years) the finer points about the unwritten rules of what sportsmanship entails. We can also agree that there is a certain point at which taking your foot off the gas, benching starters after the first quarter, not letting your guys put it all out on the field (regardless of what the competition is giving to you) hurts you, especially if the aim is national competitiveness.

I need a mulligan on this last post.
I initially meant to joke with Duff that Greg, the ultimate fact checker, might challenge his claim about never posting on this board.

I'm certain that I have.  But when you've made 22,397 posts, there are certain things that you just have to let slide. ;)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

jamtod

Quote from: emma17 on May 22, 2019, 06:14:43 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on May 22, 2019, 06:01:39 PM
Quote from: emma17 on May 22, 2019, 05:57:36 PM
Quote from: DuffMan on May 22, 2019, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: hazzben on May 22, 2019, 05:06:25 PM
It's not just some anonymous source cited in the Strib. This is our conference Greg, we are actually pretty tied in to what's going on.

What he said.

Greg, I've find it a little odd that you'd never made a MIAC post prior to this TomToss debacle, yet now you are staking claims as an authority on it.


If St. Thomas' greatest margin of victory over the last five years in-conference was 40 points, even with all their All-Sports titles, would this conversation be happening?

Out of curiosity, and I'm not suggesting it is necessary, but who was the last team to make a nationally competitive playoff run (let's say semifinals) without winning a single game by 40 points or more?

We can debate all day (and have for years) the finer points about the unwritten rules of what sportsmanship entails. We can also agree that there is a certain point at which taking your foot off the gas, benching starters after the first quarter, not letting your guys put it all out on the field (regardless of what the competition is giving to you) hurts you, especially if the aim is national competitiveness.

I need a mulligan on this last post.
I initially meant to joke with Duff that Greg, the ultimate fact checker, might challenge his claim about never posting on this board.

Regarding the 40 points, I'm not suggesting St. T scores too many points. I'm wondering if this issue would have even come up with the MIAC if St. T's greatest margin of victory in-conference was 40 or whatever number is deemed reasonable?

I'm not suggesting you are suggesting that. Just merely considering if it's even possible for that to be the case AND to have a nationally competitive program at the same time.

miac952

Concordia is the puzzling one here, since it sounds like SJU, CSB, and Bethel held ground. Horan is very good friends with Caruso by all accounts. Caruso has been in Herzog's hospital room recently. Not that FB coaches speak for institutions, but given the school's competitiveness it is somewhat surprising to me. I'm guessing there are a lot of emotions and disagreements within many MIAC member schools athletic offices today.

In the months ahead 3 current Presidents will leave their roles at MAC, St Johns, and Bethel. The conference will look very different. This is St Olaf's world now; everyone else is just living in it. Margin of victory gets too large, AD will get called to Principal Anderson's office. #1 in your logo, too ambitious...no soup for you

wm4

So how did this actual vote go down?  Meaning, if they presidents didn't ultimately have to change the by laws to get this done, what did the presidents actually vote on today/this week?


jamtod

Quote from: miac952 on May 22, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
Concordia is the puzzling one here, since it sounds like SJU, CSB, and Bethel held ground. Horan is very good friends with Caruso by all accounts. Caruso has been in Herzog's hospital room recently. Not that FB coaches speak for institutions, but given the school's competitiveness it is somewhat surprising to me. I'm guessing there are a lot of emotions and disagreements within many MIAC member schools athletic offices today.

In the months ahead 3 current Presidents will leave their roles at MAC, St Johns, and Bethel. The conference will look very different. This is St Olaf's world now; everyone else is just living in it. Margin of victory gets too large, AD will get called to Principal Anderson's office. #1 in your logo, too ambitious...no soup for you

I think it's clear that there was a divide between FB coaches/AD/Presidents. I believe our pal redtooth has given the indication that Concordia President/Board may not have been a slam dunk on this and that's apparently how it shook out.

I actually would be curious to be a fly on the wall down in Northfield. 97-0 or not, I'd be surprised if Kilian was actually in favor of #TomToss (from a football perspective) but other parties and other interests obviously drove the Ole boat.

OzJohnnie

Quote from: DuffMan on May 22, 2019, 05:18:08 PM
Quote from: OzJohnnie on May 22, 2019, 04:18:45 PM
I bet the game is really tame. UST will be showing themselves to whomever their new conference partners will be. And they will want to show themselves as good sports who don't do petty revenge, particularly if they are moving up divisions. My guess is STO don't score but UST win by less than 60.

Part of me agrees with you, but the other part of me says that St. Glenn has never cared what anyone thinks of him, so why start now?

Well if St Glenn cost UST it's spot in the MIAC (albeit just a few years early, let's be real) then he's got a little contrition to do.  I'm sure that UST would have preferred to exit on their own terms rather than be forced by the antics of the coach of the blue ribbon sport.  Undoubtedly it's their football program that will lead them to a larger division conference.  The last thing they need is a lot of unsolicited to potential conference partners like, "Good luck working with that guy."

In fact, I could see that as a reason the MIAC presidents are so quiet and taking the big hit.  I'm sure that finite issues aside, the presidents work well together and respect each other.  I don't imagine this was an easy business or personal decision to make.  Perhaps the rest of the MIAC has agree not to white-ant (Aussie slang for a whispers campaign to undermine someone else, like termites eating the foundation of a house) UST's ambitions for division 2 or higher.
[  

5 Words or Less

I found this on Wikipedia

Quote from: Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_100-point_games_in_college_football
"The most lopsided game in college football history occurred in a 1916 contest when Georgia Tech beat Cumberland 222–0."



DuffMan

There goes the near-lock that the MIAC had on pool C bids.

A tradition unrivaled...
MIAC Champions: 1932, 1935, 1936, 1938, 1953, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1982, 1985, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022
National Champions: 1963, 1965, 1976, 2003

OzJohnnie

Quote from: wm4 on May 22, 2019, 06:30:46 PM
So how did this actual vote go down?  Meaning, if they presidents didn't ultimately have to change the by laws to get this done, what did the presidents actually vote on today/this week?



I don't think they did vote.  I think UST saw they had the numbers and agreed to leave without the vote.
[  

'95 Blugold

I'd be curious to know if the offer was ever floated out that in Caruso goes St. Thomas and the MIAC stays intact.

OzJohnnie

Quote from: Andy W on May 22, 2019, 07:00:43 PM
I'd be curious to know if the offer was ever floated out that in Caruso goes St. Thomas and the MIAC stays intact.

I've wondered this myself.  I'm inclined to think, however, that this is ultimately driven by issues larger than football or Caruso.  Caruso just provided the spark that lit the fire, and once lit you can't put a fire out by stepping on the spark.  So I tend to think that it likely wasn't offered as it wouldn't have made a difference.  The genie was out of the bottle.

Plus, Caruso is a great coach and would definitely be part of upper division plans.  You toss him aside and the whole larger goal is ruined.  A catch-22, as it were.
[  

Texas Ole

Quote from: miac952 on May 22, 2019, 06:20:35 PM
Concordia is the puzzling one here, since it sounds like SJU, CSB, and Bethel held ground. Horan is very good friends with Caruso by all accounts. Caruso has been in Herzog's hospital room recently. Not that FB coaches speak for institutions, but given the school's competitiveness it is somewhat surprising to me. I'm guessing there are a lot of emotions and disagreements within many MIAC member schools athletic offices today.

In the months ahead 3 current Presidents will leave their roles at MAC, St Johns, and Bethel. The conference will look very different. This is St Olaf's world now; everyone else is just living in it. Margin of victory gets too large, AD will get called to Principal Anderson's office. #1 in your logo, too ambitious...no soup for you

It is my guess that Concordia could have been a school without a conference if the MIAC died.  I am thinking Carleton and Mac probably had firm offers to leave which really wouldn't have cost the MIAC much.  You are talking about one football team and no hockey.  St. Olaf, Hamline, and 1 other school (guessing Gustavus or Augsburg) also had opportunities to leave.  Losing 3 football and hockey schools ends the AQ status.  There wouldn't be many adds that could bring that status back.

sfury

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 22, 2019, 05:49:17 PM
Quote from: hazzben on May 22, 2019, 05:06:25 PM
It's not just some anonymous source cited in the Strib. This is our conference Greg, we are actually pretty tied in to what's going on.

I sent a message to Duffman back in February (??) telling him this was brewing, that Anderson was driving it, and that 97-0 was the spark. There are plenty of people tied into Olaf, the administration, and the athletics office who, off the record, have straight up said how pissed Anderson was.

No one loved UST dominating all the sports. But when football was added, it got more visible (just the way the world works, the Strib is much more likely to cover football playoffs than tennis). Add in the way Caruso was winning, and that's definitely what is driving this. Or at least took it to the point where people suddenly cared about the broader dominance.

Quote from: DuffMan on May 22, 2019, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: hazzben on May 22, 2019, 05:06:25 PM
It's not just some anonymous source cited in the Strib. This is our conference Greg, we are actually pretty tied in to what's going on.

What he said.

Greg, I've find it a little odd that you'd never made a MIAC post prior to this TomToss debacle, yet now you are staking claims as an authority on it.

I'm not staking any claims to authority at all. Just the opposite, in fact. I'm simply trying to piece together all of the information that has been presented, keeping in mind that the people presenting the information from various sides have biases, agendas, and ulterior motives behind what they're saying (and, perhaps more importantly, what they aren't). And, no, I'm not pointing the finger any anybody in particular on this board. I simply don't know enough about any of you -- or about the situation itself -- to do that, even if I wanted to. I'm just talking about basic human nature here.

I've followed all of the football-based comments very carefully. I'm not discounting that there is a strong possibility that there is some truth behind them -- particularly since they do appear to be coming from independent sources rather than from an echo chamber. But at the same time, the presidents appear to be saying something different (although, again, they aren't really spelling out their reasoning in detail). And, yes, I'm aware that college presidents are as capable of spinning a narrative as is anybody else.

In short, I have no basis to make any declarative statements at all regarding this situation, other than:

1) D3 doesn't operate like D1, in that administrations on this level dictate policy to football, rather than the other way around;
2) The MIAC presidents have hinted very strongly, without actually putting a fixed timetable to it, that at some level the crisis predates that 97-0 game;
3) The MIAC presidents are hurting themselves in terms of public relations by not being more forthcoming; and
4) This severance does take place within: a) a larger national context of a collegiate enrollment crisis, particularly among small liberal arts colleges; and b) a local context that involves a shift in comparative size (and possibly enrollment and financial-aid policies) between UST and its erstwhile sister schools in the MIAC. How much these contexts affect the issue remains sheer speculation, again given the absence of any further commentary from the MIAC presidents.

Again, I'm just an outside observer trying to sift through a lot of second-hand info, hearsay, and utter silence.

But that's what we keep saying. There are people on this board with firsthand knowledge about this situation. Not secondhand, not hearsay, not 9 free articles left on the Star Tribune's website. People with real insider info about what the presidents said behind closed doors (it's about football; and 100 percent, no one should dismiss Andy's question about Tommies possibly being blackmailed into getting rid of Caruso in order to get a reprieve, which just makes the whole thing even more of a joke). In addition, there are numerous posters here who are still very close with the players involved in this whole decision. There are also posters here from the origins of the board back in 1999 or whatever, much less the 2005 restart, who know the ins and outs and where the bodies are buried in the MIAC. So some of the tidbits you're talking about are going to cause some eyerolls, like being surprised by the Tommies' all-around dominance. Everyone associated with the MIAC is well aware. So the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer naivete, last-honest-man-in-room bit is going to possibly cause some annoyance.

That said, everyone's welcome here on the MIAC board, and now that we'll be losing many of our Tommie brothers, we can use all the new blood we can get. So bone up on your beer knowledge and Aussie Rules football, since that's about all we'll have to talk about after 2021.

miac952

Quote from: OzJohnnie on May 22, 2019, 07:05:02 PM
Quote from: Andy W on May 22, 2019, 07:00:43 PM
I'd be curious to know if the offer was ever floated out that in Caruso goes St. Thomas and the MIAC stays intact.

I've wondered this myself.  I'm inclined to think, however, that this is ultimately driven by issues larger than football or Caruso.  Caruso just provided the spark that lit the fire, and once lit you can't put a fire out by stepping on the spark.  So I tend to think that it likely wasn't offered as it wouldn't have made a difference.  The genie was out of the bottle.

Plus, Caruso is a great coach and would definitely be part of upper division plans.  You toss him aside and the whole larger goal is ruined.  A catch-22, as it were.

Blame it on MAC. They were the ones that brought Glenn to the MIAC.  ;D And, St. Olaf's Anderson despised Caruso's brand of football so much he hired Glenn's staff. I would guess this idea wasn't floated, given that slippery slope. And if they were to ban membership for coaches, I think they would have used their cards on Meidt with St Olaf. There was more suspicion and disdain for that program than any other in recent history.