Pool B

Started by Ralph Turner, October 01, 2005, 02:12:36 PM

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Ralph Turner

Quote from: Bob.Gregg on October 24, 2006, 11:32:47 AM
Quote from: Bill McCabe on October 24, 2006, 10:12:54 AM
What if Whitworth beats Linfield?

Good question, Bill.

If Whitworth beats Linfield, I think Linfield is out.

Wesley, Whitworth, W&J, & CMU get the "B"s.

Rockford? With THAT schedule?  and a loss on it...?


No "C" for a "B" this year if Whitworth beats Linfield.

Rockford's in-region record is 7-0 and the QOWI is #25 at 10.000.

I think that they are still on the bubble at #6.

K-Mack

Quote from: cwru70 on October 24, 2006, 10:17:05 AM
[Can't get my comment out of the "quote" box]

You had one too many people posting in there. Get rid of Foss and it would look like you posted it.

Linfield/Willamette is an interesting comparison, and certainly some Bs could lose unexpectedly and open the door for Linfield to get in even with a loss, although it would probably be a road game and maybe a similar result to Willamette in '04.

Bs have only been eligible to get Cs in the 32-team bracket, so for one year, and I don't think it happened last year.

But it's good that there's flexibility in the pool system so that everyone has access to a bid, and a deserving B isn't left out just because it is a B. The Cs, of course, had their shot at the AQ so the logic goes, and leaving them out is not as exclusionary.

Ralph, I'm getting ready to look this up ... how much will Carnegie-Mellon's non-region games affect their chances?

With a Linfield loss to Whitworth, do they remain a viable candidate with a loss to someone other than Thiel? What about if it is Thiel?
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
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Foss

Quote from: Bill McCabe on October 22, 2006, 10:06:24 PM
Bob.Gregg,  What would a Linfield loss to Whitworth do to their chances?

Quote from: Bill McCabe on October 24, 2006, 10:12:54 AM
What if Whitworth beats Linfield?

Bill, this is an excellent question but I'm wondering if the second time you meant to ask it the other way around (What if Linfield beats Whitworth, what would that do to Whitworth?) Is that what you meant?

Bob, thanks for the reply. Sounds like there is a possibilty we may see the first Pool B get that Pool C this time around. I guess we'll see.

Ralph, yes - I had forgot about that. The fact the UMHB game for Willamette in '04 was not an in-region game was likely the biggest factor in them getting in. Per the primary criteria, they only had one in-region loss.

The loss would have been viewed in the secondary criteria, as in a sense do losses to non-D3 opponents since "Overall win-loss percentage" in also part of the secondary criteria, which I personally feel places teams who are forced to play more scholarship schools at an inherent disadvantage. Although margin of victory (or defeat) is not listed anywhere in the primary or secondary criteria, for some reason I can't help but think the committee takes a peak at this in certain cases. I may be totally wrong on this. If there are two teams competing for a playoff spot and everything is pretty equal between them (in regards to the primary and secondary criteria), but team A has a narrow loss and team B loses badly to someone rougly the same caliber as the squad team A lost to, which team "looks" better?

K-Mack - sorry, but there's no getting rid of me. I'm like a bad dream that keeps coming back.  :)
A packed student section behind an end zone cheering on guys they will actually see in class on Monday is almost as cool as The Streak.

Bill McCabe

oops.  If Linfield wins, does Whitworth still get a Pool B?

Bob.Gregg

Quote from: K-Mack on October 24, 2006, 02:48:16 PM
...Bs have only been eligible to get Cs in the 32-team bracket...

K-Mack, I believe the "B"s have been "C" eligible all along....
Been wrong before.  Will be wrong again.

K-Mack

Quote from: Bob.Gregg on October 24, 2006, 08:10:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 24, 2006, 02:48:16 PM
...Bs have only been eligible to get Cs in the 32-team bracket...

K-Mack, I believe the "B"s have been "C" eligible all along....

I don't remember that being the case, but maybe it was so impractical when there were just three Cs that we never considered it.

Still, I think it would have been possible to have five 10-0 Bs and Cs by definition have to have at least one loss, so you think I would have remembered considering it.

Foss,
I too believe the committee must leave itself room to finagle and interpret so they can get the teams they think are the best in there. I know they're supposed to go by the book, but I am a cynic in that sense. I don't think they can take major leaps of faith, but they can definitely break ties and help seeding with that extra info. Also, I imagine each committee is a bit different, maybe they run it a bit different year-to-year.

Bottom line, if you're one of the last teams in or out, you probably blew a chance to make it easier on yourself somewhere along the way, and can't complain, really.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
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Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
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and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Pat Coleman

No, the B's have not been C-eligible all along. That change took place a year or two before the expansion.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Foss

#157
Quote from: Bill McCabe on October 24, 2006, 07:57:57 PM
oops.  If Linfield wins, does Whitworth still get a Pool B?

Bill, I would think Whitworth would still be in pretty good shape if their only blemish was to Linfield. I would guess they would get the nod over one of the teams that Bob has listed, with the exception of Wesley (and probably Linfield since they would have lost the head to head). Worst case, maybe they become the first Pool B to get a Pool C.
A packed student section behind an end zone cheering on guys they will actually see in class on Monday is almost as cool as The Streak.

Pat Coleman

Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Sabretooth Tiger

So Pat, my reading of the criteria and quality of wins application tells me that Oxy's win over Colorado College and how Colorado College fairs as the season winds down will have no real impact on Oxy's regional seed assuming that the Tigers (Oxy, not CC) finish the regular season undefeated?  That Oxy's only real hope to move up in the regional rankings are losses by those currently ranked higher?

tooth

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Sabretooth Tiger on October 25, 2006, 04:52:20 PM
So Pat, my reading of the criteria and quality of wins application tells me that Oxy's win over Colorado College and how Colorado College fairs as the season winds down will have no real impact on Oxy's regional seed assuming that the Tigers (Oxy, not CC) finish the regular season undefeated?  That Oxy's only real hope to move up in the regional rankings are losses by those currently ranked higher?

tooth
tooth, as an ASC fan, I believe that the geographic proximity clause in the Handbook has a greater impact on the early round games than the seedings.

In 2002, South Region #3 and overall #5 UMHB went to South Region #2 and overall #4 Trinity.

I think that your best chance is for OXY to run the table, for Linfield to beat Whitworth and for Oxy to get the highest seed in the "West Coast subregional".  The committee would send the lower ranked team to Oxy.  Someone (St Norbert) would be flown to the higher ranked NWC team (and then Oxy would host the second round game.

I really don't see someone knocking SJU or UWW (if they defeat UMHB) from the top seed or two.

Bill McCabe

Ralph, are there any other areas that could be called a "sub-regional"?

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Bill McCabe on October 25, 2006, 07:38:59 PM
Ralph, are there any other areas that could be called a "sub-regional"?

Bill, I really don't consider any other areas sub-regionals, because they can get on a bus and drive 500 miles.  You know that it is 530 miles from UMHB to Miss Coll and www.mappoint.com and 351 miles (7 hrs 42 minutes) from Belton to Pineville thru College Station to Huntsville and thru Deep East Texas or 429 miles (7 hrs, 17 minutes) by the interstates.

Mr. Ypsi

Although I'm sure I'm exaggerating a bit, we in the CCIW feel like we've gotten into a 'de facto' sub-regional.  First round: someone we can usually beat.  Second round: off to Alliance, OH, for our annual butt-kicking! ;D

Oh, well, I imagine the OAC felt the same way about Augie 20 years ago.  We've just got to step it up to where our top teams are more than top 10%, but competitive with THE BEST.  MUC (and others) eventually surpassed the Viking machine; hopefully in my lifetime, our top teams can return the favor!

K-Mack

Ralph,
You're saying you don't consider Texas, the original sub-regional, a sub-regional?

I just posted on the "way too early" thread how UMHB could have two losses, but be ranked ahead of HSU by virtue of h2h and then in theory be ahead of Trinity, which lost to TLU, an upper-middle ASC finisher ... and there would still be the Texas sub-regional.

If the South were strong this year, with say an unbeaten Wesley, Bridgewater, W&J and CNU ... there's no way they would fly all three Texas teams out for road games ... Bridgewater would still play CNU, etc.

Basically the ASC champ or Trinity is guaranteed a home game.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.