TOP 25

Started by short, July 11, 2008, 10:56:29 PM

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altor

Quote from: redswarm81 on November 04, 2009, 11:41:31 PM
Oklahoma is 5-3, with a monkeystomp win over ranked Kansas, a one point loss to ranked BYU, a one point loss to ranked Miami, and a three point loss to No. 3 Texas.  Why is Oklahoma ranked behind 7-2 Ohio State, with its 8 point loss to unranked Purdue, and its 3 point loss to 6-2 USC?

I canceled two replies to other people because this isn't a BCS board, but since you replied directly to me...

I fail to see the problem.  None of the human polls has OK better than Ohio State either.  So what exactly is your beef?

OK has less wins than OSU.  They have one more loss than OSU.  Of their five wins, none of those teams has more than 5 wins themselves.  Kansas may have been ranked at the time, but three straight losses (one to 2-6 Colorado, and the other two by monkeystomps) kinda shows them to be pretenders.  Meanwhile, OSU has wins over 6-3 Navy and a ranked 6-2 Wisconsin.  They also have a monkeystomp+ over Minnesota, whose resume compares very well to Kansas.  (Although the monkeystomps are irrelevant because the humans decided to make them irrelevant.)

"It's not who you lost to, it's who you beat."  - I think I heard that somewhere.

jam40jeff

Quote from: altor on November 05, 2009, 12:46:12 PM
"It's not who you lost to, it's who you beat."  - I think I heard that somewhere.

That is the basis of the Harbin Compter Points Ranking System in Ohio.  I think it works very well.

redswarm81

Quote from: altor on November 05, 2009, 12:46:12 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 04, 2009, 11:41:31 PM
Oklahoma is 5-3, with a monkeystomp win over ranked Kansas, a one point loss to ranked BYU, a one point loss to ranked Miami, and a three point loss to No. 3 Texas.  Why is Oklahoma ranked behind 7-2 Ohio State, with its 8 point loss to unranked Purdue, and its 3 point loss to 6-2 USC?

I canceled two replies to other people because this isn't a BCS board, but since you replied directly to me...

I fail to see the problem.  None of the human polls has OK better than Ohio State either.  So what exactly is your beef?

OK has less wins than OSU.  They have one more loss than OSU.  Of their five wins, none of those teams has more than 5 wins themselves.  Kansas may have been ranked at the time, but three straight losses (one to 2-6 Colorado, and the other two by monkeystomps) kinda shows them to be pretenders.  Meanwhile, OSU has wins over 6-3 Navy and a ranked 6-2 Wisconsin.  They also have a monkeystomp+ over Minnesota, whose resume compares very well to Kansas.  (Although the monkeystomps are irrelevant because the humans decided to make them irrelevant.)

"It's not who you lost to, it's who you beat."  - I think I heard that somewhere.

Unless you beat Capital.   :D  ::)

I'm not making a "beef" per se, I'm trying to understand poll voter psychology.  In the example of Oklahoma, they've beaten every unranked team they've faced--Ohio State can't make that claim (neither can USC, to make a different comparison).  OK's beaten ranked Kansas, and their losses to 3 ranked teams were by a total of 5 points.
I think a poll voter could make a credible case that OK deserves to be ranked higher than they are.  But I wonder if such thoughts occur to poll voters.  I suspect many poll voters treat a 3 point win in 3OT the same as a win by two touchdowns in regulation.  I find that silly.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

K-Mack

Quote from: SaintsFAN on November 01, 2009, 02:26:40 PM
Quote from: redswarm81 on November 01, 2009, 09:06:58 AM
No. 11 W&J (an enigma all season long) lost to an undefeated Thomas More, a team that might legitimately claim it deserved to be ranked higher than No. 20.


Agreed... but I think Thomas More has stayed under the radar in 2009 by playing their reserves in the 4th Quarter consistently.  Had they kept their foot on the gas pedal, there would probably have been more awareness of them and the defense before this past Saturday.  They won't claim they should be ranked higher than 20th --- this team doesn't care about rankings... just making some noise in the playoffs.

That said --- I do think W&J deserved to be in the Top 25 ....just not as high.  As things are now (after yesterday's result) some in the W&J program (fans and alums) are really questioning whether the program is what they've been before. 

Quote from: PA_wesleyfan on November 01, 2009, 05:26:14 PM
IMHO It could be time for some teams to start stepping up their non- conference competition. If the only way teams are going to get bids is to win their conference then maybe they should toughen up the non-conference opponents. With the landscape of C bids  possibly changing in 2011 some of the East and South teams are going to have to get some better SOS numbers from outside the conferencs

In response to both of you, I don't think I ever had W&J higher than the low teens, and one of the reasons was they didn't challenge themselves non-conference. Even John Carroll for Thomas More was a better test. So I really couldn't move either team very high in the poll until I knew it was capable of beating someone good, which wasn't proved until Thomas More won Saturday.

Now (if I recall correctly) W&J is outside my top 25 and Thomas More is in the teens.

Moral of the story is play somebody good if you want top 25 recognition. But playing teams you can beat is a good way to guard against not winning your AQ, ensuring you'll have a shot at 9-1. So hard to knock W&Js methods. Hardin-Simmons might not be a great example of this, but I can't think of a better one right now ... I guess you can overschedule and then when you don't win your conference, you also don't have a Pool C shot.

I'm long on the record as preferring the big noncon games, but my livliehood isn't riding on it either.

That said, I respect a Del Val as much as anyone. Ohio Northern, on another hand, might have two losses, but their win over North Central is still more convincing than some unbeaten teams who haven't played anyone near the top 25. As Pat likes to say, it's not who you lost to, it's who you've beaten.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

K-Mack

Quote from: jam40jeff on November 05, 2009, 05:19:41 PM
"It's not who you lost to, it's who you beat."  - I think I heard that somewhere.

Posted the above before reading the posts above that, BTW.

I think it's catching on!
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Ralph Turner

In defense of my crosstown rival, those Hardened-Sinners Cowgirls   ;)  , this McMurry fan (also known a McDirty or McMurphy in neighborhoods on the north side of Abilene) has consistently sought tough non-conference opponents, each of which in the last decade has required a plane flight in the home-and-home series.

There are very few teams in D3 that want to sign a two-year contract to play a typical HSU team and fly to Abilene to do it.

The fact that this year's HSU team has numerous players out with early season injuries, including their starting QB Justin Feaster and WR and Draddy Finalist ZaVious Robinson, does not detract from the fact that reputable teams, Linfield and Whitworth, committed to playing one of the finest  teams in D3.

Thomas More found an OAC team. John Carroll which swept the "East Region" in 2002.  TMC also has their Bridge Bowl game with MSJ, no slouch of a program.

I also believe that the teams that schedule quality non-conference games should get the benefit of the doubt when something like a Top 25 ranking is involved.  (In a different context, the NCAA Regional Rankings use the word "results", which implies that three "results" is better than one "result".)

Thanks K-Mack for elaborating on this issue.   :)

SaintsFAN

KMack- thanks for your insight.  Btw, I'm very glad Thomas More didn't get into the HCAC.. The one drawback of playing in the PAC is only having 2 games non conference.  Ever since the program was founded in the early 90s, TMC has had problems scheduling teams within a 3 hour radius of Cincinnati.  I remember bus trips to Oshkosh, Brownwood TX, Alfred NY, Pittsburgh, Knoxville and a flight to Long Island. 

I just wish they had more than two opportunities per season to test themselves now.
AMC Champs: 1991-1992-1993-1994-1995
HCAC Champs: 2000, 2001
PAC Champs:  2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016
Bridge Bowl Champs:  1990-1991-1992-1993-1994-1995-2002-2003-2006-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013 (SERIES OVER)
Undefeated: 1991, 1995, 2001, 2009, 2010, 2015
Instances where MSJ quit the Bridge Bowl:  2

Ralph Turner

Quote from: SaintsFAN on November 08, 2009, 04:05:37 PM
KMack- thanks for your insight.  Btw, I'm very glad Thomas More didn't get into the HCAC.. The one drawback of playing in the PAC is only having 2 games non conference.  Ever since the program was founded in the early 90s, TMC has had problems scheduling teams within a 3 hour radius of Cincinnati.  I remember bus trips to Oshkosh, Brownwood TX, Alfred NY, Pittsburgh, Knoxville and a flight to Long Island.  

I just wish they had more than two opportunities per season to test themselves now.
Next year, both the HCAC and the PresAC will be 9-team conferences.

With the Bridge Bowl game, that leaves only 1 non-conference date for TMC to fill.

SaintsFAN

Quote from: Ralph Turner on November 08, 2009, 04:09:29 PM
Quote from: SaintsFAN on November 08, 2009, 04:05:37 PM
KMack- thanks for your insight.  Btw, I'm very glad Thomas More didn't get into the HCAC.. The one drawback of playing in the PAC is only having 2 games non conference.  Ever since the program was founded in the early 90s, TMC has had problems scheduling teams within a 3 hour radius of Cincinnati.  I remember bus trips to Oshkosh, Brownwood TX, Alfred NY, Pittsburgh, Knoxville and a flight to Long Island.  

I just wish they had more than two opportunities per season to test themselves now.
Next year, both the HCAC and the PresAC will be 9-team conferences.

With the Bridge Bowl game, that leaves only 1 non-conference date for TMC to fill.

You're right... I forgot about the Earlham juggernaut they added to the league ---- TMC needs to replace John Carroll on the schedule.
AMC Champs: 1991-1992-1993-1994-1995
HCAC Champs: 2000, 2001
PAC Champs:  2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016
Bridge Bowl Champs:  1990-1991-1992-1993-1994-1995-2002-2003-2006-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013 (SERIES OVER)
Undefeated: 1991, 1995, 2001, 2009, 2010, 2015
Instances where MSJ quit the Bridge Bowl:  2

short

When will the new 25 poll be out?

I'm guessing it will look like this at the top;

1) UW-WW
2) Linfield
3) Mount Union
4) St Thomas
5) Wesley

Mr. Ypsi

I'll bet that MUC will be unanimously #2.  Linfield will definitely be #3, perhaps even unanimously.  It should be a dog-fight for #4 among Wesley, Witt, and STU (and I'll guess they finish in that order).

usee

I would be shocked to see anything but UWW#1 and MUC #2. There is no justification for anything else. #3 is a a bit of a fight but I would make it

1-UWW
2-MUC
3-Linfield
4-Wesley
5-St Thomas/Witt

MonroviaCat

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 20, 2009, 04:11:43 PM
I'll bet that MUC will be unanimously #2.  Linfield will definitely be #3, perhaps even unanimously.  It should be a dog-fight for #4 among Wesley, Witt, and STU (and I'll guess they finish in that order).
You got the first two absolutely right but it looks like Linfield was not quite (short by 6 pts if I understand things correctly)  a Unanimous #3.  
Go Cats!

Mr. Ypsi

Anyone else notice that with the sole exception of MUC, all the top 10 teams played in the North/West half of the bracket?

MonroviaCat

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on December 21, 2009, 05:16:36 PM
Anyone else notice that with the sole exception of MUC, all the top 10 teams played in the North/West half of the bracket?
Uhm...Wesley?
Go Cats!