D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

Started by usee, October 20, 2010, 04:26:33 PM

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02 Warhawk

Quote from: Lever Street on October 26, 2010, 12:20:50 PM
sju......Linfield doesn't get beat soundly by UWW.  CATS take UWW to the wire each time they play.

same for Mount...but I think I see SJU's point though.

BearcatChatter

Little big of a stiff on Mark Speckman and the Willamette Bearcats. A close loss (and lets face it, that game was ours for the taking) to Hardin-Simmons and an unfortunate day against Linfield, (#s 8 and 10) leaves us out of the top 25? Hogwash, I say. Starting the season with four ranked teams in a row should speak for itself. With a few more challenging games coming up (PLU, Whitworth), expect the Bearcats to find their way back into the rankings.
Willamette Bearcats

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: BearcatChatter on October 26, 2010, 06:21:21 PM
Little big of a stiff on Mark Speckman and the Willamette Bearcats. A close loss (and lets face it, that game was ours for the taking) to Hardin-Simmons and an unfortunate day against Linfield, (#s 8 and 10) leaves us out of the top 25? Hogwash, I say. Starting the season with four ranked teams in a row should speak for itself. With a few more challenging games coming up (PLU, Whitworth), expect the Bearcats to find their way back into the rankings.

If it's any comfort, Willamette was probably my #26. ;)

Quite a brouhaha over on the E8 board about SJF being ranked ahead of Alfred!  (For the record, I had Alfred #22, SJF unranked.)

HScoach

Here's my 25:

1.   Whitewater
2.   North Central
3.   Mount Union
4.   Wesley
5.   St. Thomas
6.   Linfield
7.   Ohio Northern
8.   Mary Hardin Baylor
9.   Wartburg
10.   Central
11.   Wheaton
12.   Delaware Valley
13.   Hardin Simmons
14.   Coe
15.   Thomas More
16.   Montclair State
17.   Hampden Sydney
18.   Trine
19.   Rowan
20.   Cortland State
21.   Bethel
22.   Alfred
23.   Case Western Reserve
24.   Cal Lutheran
25.   Ursinus
I find easily offended people rather offensive!

Statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is interesting, what they hide is essential.

Old IC Voice

Here's my entry:

1) UW-Whitewater
2) Mount Union
3) Wesley
4) North Central
5) St. Thomas
6) Thomas More
7) Wartburg
8) Delaware Valley
9) Mary Hardin-Baylor
10) Wittenberg
11) Montclair State
12) Hardin-Simmons
13) Ohio Northern
14) Cal Lutheran
15) Linfield
16) Hampden-Sydney
17) Bethel
18) Trine
19) Wheaton
20) Coe
21) St. John Fisher
22) Pacific Lutheran
23) Rowan
24) Central
25) Ursinus

Pat Coleman

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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

wildcat11

Quote from: BearcatChatter on October 26, 2010, 06:21:21 PM
an unfortunate day against Linfield

Translation:  An absolute butt whipping by Linfield.  ;)

bleedpurple

Quote from: BearcatChatter on October 26, 2010, 06:21:21 PM
Little big of a stiff on Mark Speckman and the Willamette Bearcats. A close loss (and lets face it, that game was ours for the taking) to Hardin-Simmons and an unfortunate day against Linfield, (#s 8 and 10) leaves us out of the top 25? Hogwash, I say. Starting the season with four ranked teams in a row should speak for itself. With a few more challenging games coming up (PLU, Whitworth), expect the Bearcats to find their way back into the rankings.

Starting the season 2-2, with the fourth game being a 28 point loss creates a perception that takes awhile to overcome. I agree with you, though. If the Bearcats win out the rest of the way, they will likely be back in the top 25.

K-Mack

Quote from: retagent on October 25, 2010, 09:59:04 AM
K-Mack

Why do you think St John's is consistently over ranked. This year, they have lost three games by less than a TD, two to highly ranked teams, two in OT. The loss to UWEC was early in the season, when weird things happen, and some of those might have been in the officiating realm. (I know that they should not have been in the position where a "bad" call would hurt them, and you have to overcaome, yadda, yadda, yadda......).

Over the past few years, they have either gone deep in the playoffs, or lost relatively close games to the eventual #2 or Champion, in most instances. They were last blown out, when? Give your reasoning if you would. I think I made a fairly strong case for mine.

Quote from: sju56321 on October 26, 2010, 12:14:28 PM
I guess I would like my team to be overrated-a team that made the playoffs in 05, 06, 07, 08, and 09. Yes, got beat soundly by UWW twice-but who didn't? And, yes, a bad loss from SJU's point of view to Central in '07 in the second round. If the expectation is that SJU is going to the semi-finals or championship each year, then they have failed to perform. If the expectation is to win the conference and play in the playoffs, then not so much...

It would take a little digging for the actual facts for me to properly state my case, but it's not something I just noticed.

It mostly has to do with where St. John's tends to begin a season ranked relative to its peers; in years when they've lost to Bethel or Concordia-Moorhead, St. John's appears at a place in the polls either in the same year or the following year where Bethel or C-M never would. St. Thomas seems to have crossed the respect barrier in a way Bethel really has not been able to.

On one hand, St. John's has earned a degree of respect with Stagg Bowl trips and a championship.

On the other hand, the Johnnies lose conference games more than any other truly elite team. They lost 2 in '04, 1 each in '06 and '07, and 2 in '08, and in that time, I don't think they really ever lost the bump in the poll that comes with having won a championship, even in seasons where other MIAC teams had h2h wins and deserved to be ranked higher.

Long story short, if Bethel or Concordia had the exact same season as St. John's -- undefeated in the MIAC, it was taking them longer to get the respect in the rankings than it was taking SJU, and SJU seemed to get more rope with losses.

In the past two seasons, it seems to have corrected. St. John's deserved its high ranking last season, though it was upset by Coe, it earned its place with wins over other good teams in the regular season, and with three losses this year, they have dropped out of the poll. Also, St. Thomas seems to be getting the respect (perhaps because of playoff success last year) that it took other off-brand MIAC teams longer to earn.

I mentioned earlier somewhere -- it might have been on the podcast, and I don't expect everyone to listen to it in its entirety -- where St. John's might be as strong as it was last year, and just have three close games vs. UWEC, Bethel and STU that it happened to pull out last year and failed to pull out this year.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: K-Mack on October 28, 2010, 09:36:53 PM
Quote from: retagent on October 25, 2010, 09:59:04 AM
K-Mack

Why do you think St John's is consistently over ranked. This year, they have lost three games by less than a TD, two to highly ranked teams, two in OT. The loss to UWEC was early in the season, when weird things happen, and some of those might have been in the officiating realm. (I know that they should not have been in the position where a "bad" call would hurt them, and you have to overcaome, yadda, yadda, yadda......).

Over the past few years, they have either gone deep in the playoffs, or lost relatively close games to the eventual #2 or Champion, in most instances. They were last blown out, when? Give your reasoning if you would. I think I made a fairly strong case for mine.

Quote from: sju56321 on October 26, 2010, 12:14:28 PM
I guess I would like my team to be overrated-a team that made the playoffs in 05, 06, 07, 08, and 09. Yes, got beat soundly by UWW twice-but who didn't? And, yes, a bad loss from SJU's point of view to Central in '07 in the second round. If the expectation is that SJU is going to the semi-finals or championship each year, then they have failed to perform. If the expectation is to win the conference and play in the playoffs, then not so much...

It would take a little digging for the actual facts for me to properly state my case, but it's not something I just noticed.

It mostly has to do with where St. John's tends to begin a season ranked relative to its peers; in years when they've lost to Bethel or Concordia-Moorhead, St. John's appears at a place in the polls either in the same year or the following year where Bethel or C-M never would. St. Thomas seems to have crossed the respect barrier in a way Bethel really has not been able to.

On one hand, St. John's has earned a degree of respect with Stagg Bowl trips and a championship.

On the other hand, the Johnnies lose conference games more than any other truly elite team. They lost 2 in '04, 1 each in '06 and '07, and 2 in '08, and in that time, I don't think they really ever lost the bump in the poll that comes with having won a championship, even in seasons where other MIAC teams had h2h wins and deserved to be ranked higher.

Long story short, if Bethel or Concordia had the exact same season as St. John's -- undefeated in the MIAC, it was taking them longer to get the respect in the rankings than it was taking SJU, and SJU seemed to get more rope with losses.

In the past two seasons, it seems to have corrected. St. John's deserved its high ranking last season, though it was upset by Coe, it earned its place with wins over other good teams in the regular season, and with three losses this year, they have dropped out of the poll. Also, St. Thomas seems to be getting the respect (perhaps because of playoff success last year) that it took other off-brand MIAC teams longer to earn.

I mentioned earlier somewhere -- it might have been on the podcast, and I don't expect everyone to listen to it in its entirety -- where St. John's might be as strong as it was last year, and just have three close games vs. UWEC, Bethel and STU that it happened to pull out last year and failed to pull out this year.
I  think that is how close it is in D-III from #18 to #40.  The 40th best team is not getting the "noise" votes that allow a team to get 30 points on 12 ballots (and being omitted on 13 others.)

retagent

I don't do the rankings, and the fact that a win over SJU doesn't seem to carry a whole lot of water is puzzling to me. You also only looked at recent years. Their entire body of work over your lifetime maybe actually means something to some people.

K-Mack

Quote from: retagent on October 28, 2010, 11:10:14 PM
I don't do the rankings, and the fact that a win over SJU doesn't seem to carry a whole lot of water is puzzling to me. You also only looked at recent years. Their entire body of work over your lifetime maybe actually means something to some people.

Well first off, you asked me to clarify a statement I made, using a word I used. By 'consistently' I meant for several years in a row after the Johnnies came down off their championship high. I didn't mean since they were in NAIA.

Second, I would argue that the farther back you go in history, the less relevant it is to this year. St. John was national champion the year I was born, but I don't know what that has to do with whether they should've been ranked 10th or 20th during a particular week in 2007.

Third, I think a win over SJU does carry weight, and teams that beat them should get bumped up the poll accordingly, assuming the rest of their results also cooperate (unlike, say, a UWEC this year).
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

HScoach

In my opinion as a Mount guy, a win over St John's today carries about the same weight as beating Ohio Northern or Augustana.  Good, solid, well coached team with a good name that will beat you if you play poorly, but not a true threat to beat you if you play well.  The same of which could be said about 20 or 30 teams across the nation.

I find easily offended people rather offensive!

Statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is interesting, what they hide is essential.

bleedpurple

Quote from: HScoach on October 29, 2010, 07:55:51 AM
In my opinion as a Mount guy, a win over St John's today carries about the same weight as beating Ohio Northern or Augustana.  Good, solid, well coached team with a good name that will beat you if you play poorly, but not a true threat to beat you if you play well.  The same of which could be said about 20 or 30 teams across the nation.


Well, THAT won't go over so well HSCoach!  ;)

sju56321

I agree-I have sometimes wondered how SJU is ranked at the beginning of a year. I think all teams should be evaluated based on the players they lose to graduation-obviously, UWW and Mount are replacing those very well of late, or with Mount the last 15 years.
Unfortunately for us SJU backers, SJU is only a solid team this year, not an elite team.
As I posted earlier, not sure if SJU is one the consistently overrated teams if you look to winning the conference and making the playoffs. Now, if you are talking about the "ranking" in your poll, then you might have an argument, along with many other teams, except for UWW and Mount. Hasn't the thought always been that absent those two, any one of ten or so teams could win the championship? It is pretty much a guess, maybe educated, as to the remainder of the top ten, you could probably switch #3 for #10 and make a good argument.
After his second touchdown catch in a record-setting day, St. John's receiver Will Gillach pointed skyward. That, folks, was for former head coach John Gagilardi. The legendary coach of the Johnnies for 60 seasons and 64 in college overall died Sunday. He was 91. His 489 victories are most in college football history in any division.