FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 04:58:09 AM

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jumpshot

amH 63's life-long obsession with Williams never ceases to amaze me .... I love the fact his cumulative mentions of all things Ephs exceed his comments on all other NESCAC schools combined ....

Trin9-0

Quote from: lumbercat on March 26, 2021, 01:53:15 PM
Very nice.... but UGH, no visiting side.
Hope the Bantam faithful will enjoy sitting next to visiting fans. Did Lord Jeffrey sign off on this layout?

Was any information released about beefing up Stadium security for the confrontations that will arise when the Cardinals or other visitors get a little feisty sitting on the Bantam's "home" side.

It may be hard to see in the renderings, but I do believe there will be some seating behind the visiting team bench. Those crowds typically aren't considerable, so I'd imagine that bleacher seating built into the natural hill that exists there would be enough.


On an unrelated note... are we expecting the 2021 NESCAC football schedule to be what the 2020 schedule was supposed to be? That would certainly be my guess but I don't believe it has been confirmed yet, presumably due to the uncertainty of the pandemic.


Finally, with so many NESCAC teams currently participating in intercollegiate contests (even in some cases, winter and fall teams) what is stopping football from scheduling one or two contests? How great would a Williams-Amherst, Trinity-Wesleyan, or CBB game be for these seniors who missed their final seasons?! What's stopping this from happening?
NESCAC CHAMPIONS: 1974, 1978, 1980, 1983, 1987, 1991, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2022, 2023
UNDEFEATED SEASONS: 1911, 1915, 1934, 1949, 1954, 1955, 1993, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2022

lumbercat

Quote from: jumpshot on March 29, 2021, 11:10:01 PM
amH 63's life-long obsession with Williams never ceases to amaze me .... I love the fact his cumulative mentions of all things Ephs exceed his comments on all other NESCAC schools combined ....


Rabbit ears

Trin9-0

I'm curious what impact not having a 2020 season will have on the NESCAC coaching situations. Will it help or hurt B.J. Hammer at Bowdoin, who was winless in 2019, or Malik Hall at Bates, who has one win at Bates in two seasons? Should expectations be raised/lowered based on how unconventional the past year has been, or will it be status quo?

The data supports the notion that consistency is a good thing. Three of the top four coaches in the NESCAC by winning percentage have been in their roles for 15+ seasons (the fourth, DiCenzo at Wesleyan, has been on staff there for a decade and was groomed to take over).

I suppose it's a bit of a chicken vs. egg situation; are coaches winning because the administration keeps them around or does the administration keep them around because they win? Likewise, are coaches losing because the administration doesn't give them time or does the administration not give them time because they lose?

Civetti rewarded Tufts by sticking with him after going winless in his first three seasons by compiling a .647 winning percentage since. J.B. Wells had just 3 wins in 4 years before Hammer arrived in Lewiston but Dave Caputi averaged just 2 wins per season over 15 years, while Mark Harriman averaged only 2 wins per season over 20 years.

I guess my point is that years three and four appear to be a tipping point and therefore are critically important when deciding whether or not to stick with a coach. All of the CBB programs have coaches in that window without the benefit of a measuring stick from 2020. Cosgrove is likely safe, but who knows how much longer he wants to coach (he'll be 65 this fall). The jury is still out for Hammer and Hall... for now.


Here are the NESCAC Head Coaches by length of tenure along with current winning percentages:

Amherst, E.J. Mills - Entering 25th year as Head Coach, winning %: .748
Middlebury, Bob Ritter - Entering 21st year as Head Coach, winning %: 658
Trinity, Jeff Devanney - Entering 16th year as Head Coach, winning %: .835
Tufts, Jay Civetti - Entering 11th year as Head Coach, winning %: .440
Hamilton, Dave Murray - Entering 8th year as Head Coach, winning %: .294
Wesleyan, Dan DiCenzo - Entering 7th year as Head Coach, winning %: .698
Williams, Mark Raymond - Entering 6th year as Head Coach, winning %: .514
Colby, Jack Cosgrove - Entering 4th year as Head Coach, winning %: .278
Bates, Malik Hall - Entering 4th year as Head Coach, winning %: .111
Bowdoin, B.J. Hammer - Entering 3rd year as Head Coach, winning %: .000
NESCAC CHAMPIONS: 1974, 1978, 1980, 1983, 1987, 1991, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2022, 2023
UNDEFEATED SEASONS: 1911, 1915, 1934, 1949, 1954, 1955, 1993, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2022

Trin9-0

Trinity announced a new hire, Drew Jacobs who graduated from Middlebury in 2018 and played running back for the Panthers, is now cornerbacks coach and will handle recruiting the Southeast for the Bants.
NESCAC CHAMPIONS: 1974, 1978, 1980, 1983, 1987, 1991, 1993, 1996, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2022, 2023
UNDEFEATED SEASONS: 1911, 1915, 1934, 1949, 1954, 1955, 1993, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2022

The Mole

Consistency and support is critical. I will add to this, go back to 1992 and see program winning percentages (I included below) and you can compare them to current coach winning percentages based on tenure and get an idea of who is doing a good job. When I look at it, its a clear cut top 5 and bottom five. It has not changed much in the close to 30 year period. Coaching matters but without admissions/athletics support, you're going nowhere.

Trinity 180-47 .792
Williams 160-65-2 .704
Amherst 160-66-1 .704
Middlebury 144-83 .634
Wesleyan 124-103 .546
Colby 100-126-1 .427
Tufts 94-132-1 .414
Bowdoin 61-165-1 .268
Hamilton 59-168 .260
Bates 50-177 .220

Quote from: Trin8-0 on April 09, 2021, 10:50:41 AM
I'm curious what impact not having a 2020 season will have on the NESCAC coaching situations. Will it help or hurt B.J. Hammer at Bowdoin, who was winless in 2019, or Malik Hall at Bates, who has one win at Bates in two seasons? Should expectations be raised/lowered based on how unconventional the past year has been, or will it be status quo?

The data supports the notion that consistency is a good thing. Three of the top four coaches in the NESCAC by winning percentage have been in their roles for 15+ seasons (the fourth, DiCenzo at Wesleyan, has been on staff there for a decade and was groomed to take over).

I suppose it's a bit of a chicken vs. egg situation; are coaches winning because the administration keeps them around or does the administration keep them around because they win? Likewise, are coaches losing because the administration doesn't give them time or does the administration not give them time because they lose?

Civetti rewarded Tufts by sticking with him after going winless in his first three seasons by compiling a .647 winning percentage since. J.B. Wells had just 3 wins in 4 years before Hammer arrived in Lewiston but Dave Caputi averaged just 2 wins per season over 15 years, while Mark Harriman averaged only 2 wins per season over 20 years.

I guess my point is that years three and four appear to be a tipping point and therefore are critically important when deciding whether or not to stick with a coach. All of the CBB programs have coaches in that window without the benefit of a measuring stick from 2020. Cosgrove is likely safe, but who knows how much longer he wants to coach (he'll be 65 this fall). The jury is still out for Hammer and Hall... for now.


Here are the NESCAC Head Coaches by length of tenure along with current winning percentages:

Amherst, E.J. Mills - Entering 25th year as Head Coach, winning %: .748
Middlebury, Bob Ritter - Entering 21st year as Head Coach, winning %: 658
Trinity, Jeff Devanney - Entering 16th year as Head Coach, winning %: .835
Tufts, Jay Civetti - Entering 11th year as Head Coach, winning %: .440
Hamilton, Dave Murray - Entering 8th year as Head Coach, winning %: .294
Wesleyan, Dan DiCenzo - Entering 7th year as Head Coach, winning %: .698
Williams, Mark Raymond - Entering 6th year as Head Coach, winning %: .514
Colby, Jack Cosgrove - Entering 4th year as Head Coach, winning %: .278
Bates, Malik Hall - Entering 4th year as Head Coach, winning %: .111
Bowdoin, B.J. Hammer - Entering 3rd year as Head Coach, winning %: .000
TAKE THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED

lumbercat

#17346
Colby full squad on practice field today in full pads.
Full scale spring practice commencing on Mayflower Hill.
Cosgrove and the Mules mean business up in Waterville.


amh63

Lumbercat....thanks for the post wrt Colby football.  Most interesting.....Spring practice!   Colby builds a new sports complex....now football Spring  Practice.  Maybe Colby is thinking about moving up to another football division ;).

lumbercat

#17348
No chance of that but this Colby athletic program is clearly committed to winning NESCAC championships.
They won one recently in hockey.......(or as the Nescac COMMUNITY likes to say "Ice Hockey") and they contended for the Hoops title as well.

The Colby president and the AD are unified in a strong institutional commitment to athletics, health and wellness and competing to win in all sports in NESCAC athletics.

NO COINCIDENCE THAT APPLICATIONS BROKE THE ALL TIME RECORD THIS YEAR AND FUNDRAISING RESULTS SET ANOTHER ALL TIME RECORD.

Having A state of the art athletic, health and wellness complex has been the pivot point and the Colby administration has incorporated this into a number of positives for Colby.......they get it in Waterville--- the large financial contributions they have enjoyed at Colby have been a catalyst for all the growth initiatives.

They've made a commitment to winning Athletics and coupled that with a larger commitment to health and wellness......other NESCAC schools will follow that model soon.


God bless the Harold Alfond foundation and the great benefits that it has yielded to Colby. Those on Mayflower hill are most fortunate for those donations and they have managed them well.

nescac1

I'd actually disagree with The Mole about a top five and a bottom five.  I think there are basically three tiers of programs in NESCAC. 

Trinity, Amherst, Williams* and to a lesser extent Middlebury (kind of a tier 1A) will always be good unless there is an absolute coaching disaster.   Trinity has never had one, hence its dominant position in the W-L records.  Amherst and Williams have been roughly on par with Trinity other than when Osterdarp was basically not all there at the very end of his coaching career and then an interim coach went 0-8 in 1992, and of course in 2009 Williams made, to put it kindly, a hiring misjudgment.  Give or take four brutal years for each, they've otherwise, like Trinity, had a very consistent record of excellence.  I'm not sure Midd would necessarily stay in that top tier with a different coach, but clearly, especially in recent years, it has earned its place.

*Had Kelton performed at the same level of his predecessor and successor, basically averaging a 6-2 season every year, Williams would have won 20 more games over his tenure (I'm including Raymond's first season since he inherited an absolute disaster).  That would have put the Ephs exactly on par with Trinity.

Bates, Bowdoin and Hamilton seemingly will always struggle.  The very best coaches (and they've had some very good ones among them) might be able to get to around .500 every now and again.  But it just seems like for some reasons that have been discussed and others that are not entirely clear to me, it's nearly impossible for those schools to have sustained football success, no matter who is at the helm. 

The middle tier is where things get interesting: Colby, Tufts and Wesleyan have been both at the very bottom and the very top of NESCAC.  Those schools have shown the ability to compete for NESCAC titles with the right leadership and the right institutional support, but they can also slide pretty quickly into irrelevance and get stuck there for a long period of time if there is not strong institutional support (and I'm not even talking about a Kelton-level disaster).  Right now, all three seem to have that leadership and support, and I think it's clear that Colby is going to start winning more games, and probably very soon. 

That leads to a pretty big logjam of perennial contenders and a more balanced league that we've seen for awhile.  In any given year, I think that Trinity, Amherst, Williams, Midd, Colby, Tufts and Wesleyan all have the infrastructure, institutional support, and coaching staff in place to build championship teams.  Certainly, all attract (at this point) some elite recruits.  Unfortunately, that makes it all the tougher for Hamilton, Bates, and Bowdoin to break out, since they aren't catching any of those mid-tier teams in a down cycle and none are likely to enter one unless they lose their head coaches.  But I think we are going to see fewer and fewer 8-1 or 9-0 type seasons now that there are seven very strong programs in the league, and certainly fewer blowouts than we used to back when, say, Amherst, Williams or Trinity were running roughshod over the competition. 

The Mole

Nescac1, while I can see your points about the tiers, I politely disagree about Tufts and Colby having time at the very top. Colby has one shared title in its history in 2000 and has not been above 500 since 2005 and they have 15 losing slates since 1992. Tufts has zero titles (atta boy to the undefeated 1979 team before titles were formalized) and also 15 losing campaigns since 1992. Civetti has gotten near the top and has the Jumbos moving in the right direction, but until they can grab a title, you have to consider the entire body of work. Agreed there is more balance overall, and its gonna be tough to run the table. Midd went 9-0 with a lot of close calls. Wesleyan was 8-1 with a few OT wins and down to the wire games. Makes for great Saturdays in Autumn.  Love the discussion

Quote from: nescac1 on April 13, 2021, 07:26:19 PM
I'd actually disagree with The Mole about a top five and a bottom five.  I think there are basically three tiers of programs in NESCAC. 

Trinity, Amherst, Williams* and to a lesser extent Middlebury (kind of a tier 1A) will always be good unless there is an absolute coaching disaster.   Trinity has never had one, hence its dominant position in the W-L records.  Amherst and Williams have been roughly on par with Trinity other than when Osterdarp was basically not all there at the very end of his coaching career and then an interim coach went 0-8 in 1992, and of course in 2009 Williams made, to put it kindly, a hiring misjudgment.  Give or take four brutal years for each, they've otherwise, like Trinity, had a very consistent record of excellence.  I'm not sure Midd would necessarily stay in that top tier with a different coach, but clearly, especially in recent years, it has earned its place.

*Had Kelton performed at the same level of his predecessor and successor, basically averaging a 6-2 season every year, Williams would have won 20 more games over his tenure (I'm including Raymond's first season since he inherited an absolute disaster).  That would have put the Ephs exactly on par with Trinity.

Bates, Bowdoin and Hamilton seemingly will always struggle.  The very best coaches (and they've had some very good ones among them) might be able to get to around .500 every now and again.  But it just seems like for some reasons that have been discussed and others that are not entirely clear to me, it's nearly impossible for those schools to have sustained football success, no matter who is at the helm. 

The middle tier is where things get interesting: Colby, Tufts and Wesleyan have been both at the very bottom and the very top of NESCAC.  Those schools have shown the ability to compete for NESCAC titles with the right leadership and the right institutional support, but they can also slide pretty quickly into irrelevance and get stuck there for a long period of time if there is not strong institutional support (and I'm not even talking about a Kelton-level disaster).  Right now, all three seem to have that leadership and support, and I think it's clear that Colby is going to start winning more games, and probably very soon. 

That leads to a pretty big logjam of perennial contenders and a more balanced league that we've seen for awhile.  In any given year, I think that Trinity, Amherst, Williams, Midd, Colby, Tufts and Wesleyan all have the infrastructure, institutional support, and coaching staff in place to build championship teams.  Certainly, all attract (at this point) some elite recruits.  Unfortunately, that makes it all the tougher for Hamilton, Bates, and Bowdoin to break out, since they aren't catching any of those mid-tier teams in a down cycle and none are likely to enter one unless they lose their head coaches.  But I think we are going to see fewer and fewer 8-1 or 9-0 type seasons now that there are seven very strong programs in the league, and certainly fewer blowouts than we used to back when, say, Amherst, Williams or Trinity were running roughshod over the competition.
TAKE THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED

nescac1

Fair enough that Colby and Tufts in particular have more to prove, especially Colby.  I do feel that Colby will get there with the facilities and coaching staff on hand, but only one title followed by so many down years is probably not enough at this point.  So I may have been just a bit overcome by lumbercat's (justifiable I'd say) optimism for the program. 

Tufts, while it hasn't won, has been a solid contender for around 5 years, including 6-2, 7-2 and 7-1 seasons.   That clearly puts it in the top echelon of the league right now (or at the very least, in a different tier than Hamilton, Bates and Bowdoin, which have never had any sort of run of success like that), even though Tufts has yet to break through with a NESCAC crown.  And while last year was a bit of a down season, Tufts had a very young squad and I expect we will see some other gaudy win records ahead ...  especially when you consider how dominant Tufts has been during the past decade in some other men's sports, like lacrosse and soccer. (and hoops too, last year)  Tufts can attract some players, due to its size and location, that most other NESCAC schools aren't going to be in the mix for.  At some point around ten years ago, it seems like Tufts made a decision to emphasize athletics in a much bigger way after years of being an also-ran in NESCAC, or perhaps it just got lucky with some amazing coaching hires ...

lumbercat

After a very difficult start at Tufts Civetti has done a fine job rebuilding the Tufts program. However, the recovery period is over and he needs to take a definitive forward step and win a Nescac championship or at least get firmly entrenched in that elite top layer.
He's got one of the best recruiting situations in the conference with a great venue and with an enrollment twice as large as most Nescac schools he's arguably got more admission influence and flexibility.
He's always rumored to be a future Ivy or Patriot HC but he needs to take that next step. He could have a fine career in Medford as the next Rocky Carzo but I don't think that's his plan.

lumbercat

Quote from: nescac1 on April 13, 2021, 08:02:46 PM
Fair enough that Colby and Tufts in particular have more to prove, especially Colby.  I do feel that Colby will get there with the facilities and coaching staff on hand, but only one title followed by so many down years is probably not enough at this point.  So I may have been just a bit overcome by lumbercat's (justifiable I'd say) optimism for the program. 

Tufts, while it hasn't won, has been a solid contender for around 5 years, including 6-2, 7-2 and 7-1 seasons.   That clearly puts it in the top echelon of the league right now (or at the very least, in a different tier than Hamilton, Bates and Bowdoin, which have never had any sort of run of success like that), even though Tufts has yet to break through with a NESCAC crown.  And while last year was a bit of a down season, Tufts had a very young squad and I expect we will see some other gaudy win records ahead ...  especially when you consider how dominant Tufts has been during the past decade in some other men's sports, like lacrosse and soccer. (and hoops too, last year)  Tufts can attract some players, due to its size and location, that most other NESCAC schools aren't going to be in the mix for.  At some point around ten years ago, it seems like Tufts made a decision to emphasize athletics in a much bigger way after years of being an also-ran in NESCAC, or perhaps it just got lucky with some amazing coaching hires ...


Nescac1

Good points, I agree with most.

The point in time you are referring to when Tufts shifted to a significantly stronger emphasis on winning in Athletics occurred when the new President and AD came on board in close proximity to one another.

They each professed a clear commitment to winning and placed a strong emphasis on sports.....the rest is history.

It was the best thing that ever happened for Civetti and the other programs you mention.

Hawk196

Quote from: lumbercat on April 13, 2021, 08:19:00 PM
Quote from: nescac1 on April 13, 2021, 08:02:46 PM
Fair enough that Colby and Tufts in particular have more to prove, especially Colby.  I do feel that Colby will get there with the facilities and coaching staff on hand, but only one title followed by so many down years is probably not enough at this point.  So I may have been just a bit overcome by lumbercat's (justifiable I'd say) optimism for the program. 

Tufts, while it hasn't won, has been a solid contender for around 5 years, including 6-2, 7-2 and 7-1 seasons.   That clearly puts it in the top echelon of the league right now (or at the very least, in a different tier than Hamilton, Bates and Bowdoin, which have never had any sort of run of success like that), even though Tufts has yet to break through with a NESCAC crown.  And while last year was a bit of a down season, Tufts had a very young squad and I expect we will see some other gaudy win records ahead ...  especially when you consider how dominant Tufts has been during the past decade in some other men's sports, like lacrosse and soccer. (and hoops too, last year)  Tufts can attract some players, due to its size and location, that most other NESCAC schools aren't going to be in the mix for.  At some point around ten years ago, it seems like Tufts made a decision to emphasize athletics in a much bigger way after years of being an also-ran in NESCAC, or perhaps it just got lucky with some amazing coaching hires ...


Nescac1

Good points, I agree with most.

The point in time you are referring to when Tufts shifted to a significantly stronger emphasis on winning in Athletics occurred when the new President and AD came on board in close proximity to one another.

They each professed a clear commitment to winning and placed a strong emphasis on sports.....the rest is history.

It was the best thing that ever happened for Civetti and the other programs you mention.

I like Civetti, good guy, very intense/emotional, I met him at a Brown's camp, my son was being recruited, but after years and years they changed the coaching staff. We didn't wait and he committed to Tufts