MBB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

Started by miac newbie, February 17, 2005, 03:57:25 PM

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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: miacmaniac on February 27, 2018, 05:55:20 PM
Awards for the season are out....no major surprises"
http://www.miacathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2017-18/releases/20180223w7srmo 

I am perplexed how five forwards & one post constitutes an All-Conference "team" and the 2nd team has four guards and one forward but it is far better than 18 "first team" and a handful of Honorable mentions

St. John's got six players onto those four teams.  I can't imagine there are too many conferences where a sixth man makes All-Conference, especially with as many teams as the MIAC has.
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Gregory Sager

#19321
Quote from: bball1122 on February 27, 2018, 05:40:40 PM
I'm well aware that national recruiting isn't poor recruiting.  Nor would I tell Williams or WashU to change a thing.   They've been very successful doing what they're doing.   But since Mac hired Coach Whittle, they've clearly moved to a more national recruiting strategy.  And how did that work for them? I'm not saying it would be impossible for the right person to do it,  but I am saying it's not likely.

All I'm saying is that it's not apparent to me that the issue is local vs. national recruiting. I think that the problem might be more a matter of the institution itself. How much does the administration back the program (especially in terms of budget, if the recruiting is done on a national level), and how far is it willing to go in terms of giving the program the resources that it needs?

Macalester doesn't do well overall in terms of MIAC sports, and that's not news to anyone who follows D3. But there's at least a couple of sports in which the Scots have had some success, and that's men's and women's soccer -- and those sports recruit nationally. There are more Illinoisians than Minnesotans on the current men's roster (only five of the 31 players listed are from the Land of 10,000 Lakes), and only three Minnesotans (as opposed to four Californians, f'rinstance) on the women's roster. So it can be done.

The other possibility is that to which you alluded -- "the right person" wasn't in the job. No offense to Coach Whittle, but his W-L record speaks for itself.

Quote from: miacmaniac on February 27, 2018, 07:00:17 PM
I think the problem at Mac is far deeper than the coach or recruiting. Other than a handful of seasons in the 2000-2007 era, the Scots have rarely finished higher than ninth in the 11-team era and eighth in the "old days" of fewer MIAC members. They have won a grand total of two MIAC regular season titles in nearly 100 years of play-- outright in 1937 and shared in 1981 (which I seem to recall was a year eligibility issues at several MIAC programs). Heck, they lost nearly 60 MIAC games in a row about a decade ago! 

A new coach isn't going to change the cultural at Mac, no matter how good his recruiting plan.  And this culture extends beyond men's hoops. With the exception of baseball in recent years and soccer (both genders) in the 1990-early 2000s, Mac has been inept in every sport for as long as I've followed the MIAC. No one coach or even a new AD or even a complete overhaul of the Athletic Dept is going to change that. IMO the recent fiascoes with their football program and the women's hoops show an administration that doesn't value athletics. Unlike their academic "cousins" (Williams, Amherst, Wash U to name a few), it seems the Mac administration has no desire for success in any athletic field.

I don't profess to have an answer but it seems the Administration doesn't care if they are the butt of jokes or the punchline on ESPN. Without support from the top, the new coach can recruit only MN kids, or can recruit only non-MN kids or only recruit kids from outside the US, and the result will remain the same-- 4-16 as a very good season, 2-18 as the norm.

You're basically saying the same thing that I am, although I would add that Macalester's success in men's and women's soccer has continued into the present. The Scots' men's team has won two MIAC titles in this decade, and it's finished second in the league behind national power St. Thomas in each of the past two seasons; as recently as 2015 the Scots went 8-0-2 in MIAC play. Meanwhile, the Macalester women's team has a pair of second-place MIAC finishes in this decade and never drops below the middle of the pack.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Drake Palmer

#19322
Quote from: miacmaniac on February 27, 2018, 05:55:20 PM
Awards for the season are out....no major surprises"
http://www.miacathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2017-18/releases/20180223w7srmo 

I am perplexed how five forwards & one post constitutes an All-Conference "team" and the 2nd team has four guards and one forward but it is far better than 18 "first team" and a handful of Honorable mentions   

Mose, you must keep in mind this is only the second year the MIAC has broken down the All Conference Awards by first, second, and third place teams.  As you know, in previous years, 30+ players would be named All Conference, and another 15 or so would be named honorable mention.  It's called progress, not perfection.  ;D

However, it does seem a little unusual to so see 5 forwards and one post player named to the First team.  Although I like Carleton's Kent Hanson a lot, and think he'll be the go-guy next year, I don't think it would have been a terrible slight to have named him second team, and perhaps move SJU's David Stokman or Hamline's Zach Smith to the first team. But it's hard to discount third in the conference in scoring, and 5th in rebound average.

But, for the sake of argument, I would go with an All MIAC first team of the following:

Kevin Grow – Carleton, P
Collin Olmscheid – Augsburg, SF
Robert Tobroxen – St. Olaf, W
Zach Smith – Hamline, PG
David Stokman – St. Johns, 2G
Tyler Weiss - -  St. Johns, PF


Nice to see STO's Dominic Bledsoe recognized for his outstanding FY year, and to also be named to the All Defensive Team as a first year. I think the All Defense team is right on the money. If this was the NBA, STO's Robert Tobroxen would be the San Antonio Spurs' healthy Kawhi Leonard.  :)

***
Regarding Macalester. Mose, I think you and Greg are both right in terms of a general lack of institutional focus and commitment to athletics, along with a bad coaching fit. At the time, Eric Whittle looked like a great hire. BB1122 is also right about the quirky player losses he referenced.
"If anything here offends, I beg your pardon. I come in peace, I depart in gratitude." ;)

OldAuggie

Quote from: Drake Palmer on February 27, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
But, for the sake of argument, I would go with an All MIAC first team of the following:
Kevin Grow – Carleton, P
Collin Olmscheid – Augsburg
Robert Tobroxen – St. Olaf, W
Zach Smith – Hamline, PG
David Stokman – St. Johns, 2G
Tyler Weiss - -  St. Johns, PF

Fixed it for you! No need to give the Johnnies another reason to gloat.
MIAC champions 1928, 1997

Drake Palmer

"If anything here offends, I beg your pardon. I come in peace, I depart in gratitude." ;)

bball1122

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 27, 2018, 07:59:29 PM
Quote from: bball1122 on February 27, 2018, 05:40:40 PM
I'm well aware that national recruiting isn't poor recruiting.  Nor would I tell Williams or WashU to change a thing.   They've been very successful doing what they're doing.   But since Mac hired Coach Whittle, they've clearly moved to a more national recruiting strategy.  And how did that work for them? I'm not saying it would be impossible for the right person to do it,  but I am saying it's not likely.

All I'm saying is that it's not apparent to me that the issue is local vs. national recruiting. I think that the problem might be more a matter of the institution itself. How much does the administration back the program (especially in terms of budget, if the recruiting is done on a national level), and how far is it willing to go in terms of giving the program the resources that it needs?

Macalester doesn't do well overall in terms of MIAC sports, and that's not news to anyone who follows D3. But there's at least a couple of sports in which the Scots have had some success, and that's men's and women's soccer -- and those sports recruit nationally. There are more Illinoisians than Minnesotans on the current men's roster (only five of the 31 players listed are from the Land of 10,000 Lakes), and only three Minnesotans (as opposed to four Californians, f'rinstance) on the women's roster. So it can be done.

The other possibility is that to which you alluded -- "the right person" wasn't in the job. No offense to Coach Whittle, but his W-L record speaks for itself.

Quote from: miacmaniac on February 27, 2018, 07:00:17 PM
I think the problem at Mac is far deeper than the coach or recruiting. Other than a handful of seasons in the 2000-2007 era, the Scots have rarely finished higher than ninth in the 11-team era and eighth in the "old days" of fewer MIAC members. They have won a grand total of two MIAC regular season titles in nearly 100 years of play-- outright in 1937 and shared in 1981 (which I seem to recall was a year eligibility issues at several MIAC programs). Heck, they lost nearly 60 MIAC games in a row about a decade ago! 

A new coach isn't going to change the cultural at Mac, no matter how good his recruiting plan.  And this culture extends beyond men's hoops. With the exception of baseball in recent years and soccer (both genders) in the 1990-early 2000s, Mac has been inept in every sport for as long as I've followed the MIAC. No one coach or even a new AD or even a complete overhaul of the Athletic Dept is going to change that. IMO the recent fiascoes with their football program and the women's hoops show an administration that doesn't value athletics. Unlike their academic "cousins" (Williams, Amherst, Wash U to name a few), it seems the Mac administration has no desire for success in any athletic field.

I don't profess to have an answer but it seems the Administration doesn't care if they are the butt of jokes or the punchline on ESPN. Without support from the top, the new coach can recruit only MN kids, or can recruit only non-MN kids or only recruit kids from outside the US, and the result will remain the same-- 4-16 as a very good season, 2-18 as the norm.

You're basically saying the same thing that I am, although I would add that Macalester's success in men's and women's soccer has continued into the present. The Scots' men's team has won two MIAC titles in this decade, and it's finished second in the league behind national power St. Thomas in each of the past two seasons; as recently as 2015 the Scots went 8-0-2 in MIAC play. Meanwhile, the Macalester women's team has a pair of second-place MIAC finishes in this decade and never drops below the middle of the pack.

I think we're in agreement here - I do think it's a school-wide issue, a lack of investment in athletics, a general malaise about sports at Mac.  And I guess what I was trying to say yesterday, but didn't articulate well, is that if nothing changes about the investment in athletics at Mac, it will be hard to build a program on national recruiting.  It's more expensive, takes more time, and will require a coach that has the connections to do it.  I'm not sure, given the recent lack of success at Mac, they will be able to find that person.

SUMMIT!!!!!

Quote from: Drake Palmer on February 27, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
Quote from: miacmaniac on February 27, 2018, 05:55:20 PM
Awards for the season are out....no major surprises"
http://www.miacathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2017-18/releases/20180223w7srmo 

I am perplexed how five forwards & one post constitutes an All-Conference "team" and the 2nd team has four guards and one forward but it is far better than 18 "first team" and a handful of Honorable mentions   

Mose, you must keep in mind this is only the second year the MIAC has broken down the All Conference Awards by first, second, and third place teams.  As you know, in previous years, 30+ players would be named All Conference, and another 15 or so would be named honorable mention.  It's called progress, not perfection.  ;D

Isn't my saying 'it is far better" than the old system essentially the same as you calling it "progress, not perfection"?
After the game, the king and pawn go into the same box.

Italian proverb

txg

MIAC dream scenario.  Johnnies (good chance) and Oles (decidedly less good chance) advance from their pods.  I think Johnnies would host the Sectionals, as Washington is over 500 miles from both SJU and STO.  A nice MIAC doubleheader on 3/9.  Let's call it a 15-to-1 shot.

Make it happen, universe.

WUPHF

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 27, 2018, 07:59:29 PM
All I'm saying is that it's not apparent to me that the issue is local vs. national recruiting. I think that the problem might be more a matter of the institution itself. How much does the administration back the program (especially in terms of budget, if the recruiting is done on a national level), and how far is it willing to go in terms of giving the program the resources that it needs?

This third-person anecdote is worth exactly what you all are paying for it, but one of my closest friends works at Macalester.  I asked him about the basketball program last year.  His take: the support was not there.

Smitty Oom

Quote from: txg on March 01, 2018, 12:43:04 PM
MIAC dream scenario.  Johnnies (good chance) and Oles (decidedly less good chance) advance from their pods.  I think Johnnies would host the Sectionals, as Washington is over 500 miles from both SJU and STO.  A nice MIAC doubleheader on 3/9.  Let's call it a 15-to-1 shot.

Make it happen, universe.

Another weekend of games to take in at Collegeville, where can I sign up?

Quote from: WUPHF on March 01, 2018, 12:55:09 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 27, 2018, 07:59:29 PM
All I'm saying is that it's not apparent to me that the issue is local vs. national recruiting. I think that the problem might be more a matter of the institution itself. How much does the administration back the program (especially in terms of budget, if the recruiting is done on a national level), and how far is it willing to go in terms of giving the program the resources that it needs?

This third-person anecdote is worth exactly what you all are paying for it, but one of my closest friends works at Macalester.  I asked him about the basketball program last year.  His take: the support was not there.

Yeah I think all of us on this board are dancing around the same thing... the MAC job, for many reasons, will be a very tough program to turnaround. The main such reason is the lack of support for athletics at the college.

Drake Palmer

Quote from: miacmaniac on March 01, 2018, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: Drake Palmer on February 27, 2018, 10:45:09 PM
Quote from: miacmaniac on February 27, 2018, 05:55:20 PM
Awards for the season are out....no major surprises"
http://www.miacathletics.com/sports/mbkb/2017-18/releases/20180223w7srmo 

I am perplexed how five forwards & one post constitutes an All-Conference "team" and the 2nd team has four guards and one forward but it is far better than 18 "first team" and a handful of Honorable mentions   

Mose, you must keep in mind this is only the second year the MIAC has broken down the All Conference Awards by first, second, and third place teams.  As you know, in previous years, 30+ players would be named All Conference, and another 15 or so would be named honorable mention.  It's called progress, not perfection.  ;D

Isn't my saying 'it is far better" than the old system essentially the same as you calling it "progress, not perfection"?

And what else did I go on to say?  However, it does seem a little unusual to so see 5 forwards and one post player named to the First team.

Why so testy bro? :) The lack of Tommie purple adorning the big dance?  I feel for you.  They'll be back. :)



"If anything here offends, I beg your pardon. I come in peace, I depart in gratitude." ;)

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: txg on March 01, 2018, 12:43:04 PM
MIAC dream scenario.  Johnnies (good chance) and Oles (decidedly less good chance) advance from their pods.  I think Johnnies would host the Sectionals, as Washington is over 500 miles from both SJU and STO.  A nice MIAC doubleheader on 3/9.  Let's call it a 15-to-1 shot.

Make it happen, universe.

It depends on all four teams. If there is someone in the middle, it will move. Not just one team (WashU) not getting to somewhere else. Granted, with Whitman, WashU, UWP (or St. Oles), and SJU.. it looks favorable for the Tommies..,. but still need to win. :)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

SUMMIT!!!!!

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 01, 2018, 08:36:52 PM
Quote from: txg on March 01, 2018, 12:43:04 PM
MIAC dream scenario.  Johnnies (good chance) and Oles (decidedly less good chance) advance from their pods.  I think Johnnies would host the Sectionals, as Washington is over 500 miles from both SJU and STO.  A nice MIAC doubleheader on 3/9.  Let's call it a 15-to-1 shot.

Make it happen, universe.

It depends on all four teams. If there is someone in the middle, it will move. Not just one team (WashU) not getting to somewhere else. Granted, with Whitman, WashU, UWP (or St. Oles), and SJU.. it looks favorable for the Tommies..,. but still need to win. :)
Are you saying that the NCAA would ask UST to host? Or that it would boot one of the 4 teams that advance in favor of the Tommies??  ;) ;D
After the game, the king and pawn go into the same box.

Italian proverb

Pat Coleman

Quote from: miacmaniac on March 01, 2018, 11:03:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 01, 2018, 08:36:52 PM
Quote from: txg on March 01, 2018, 12:43:04 PM
MIAC dream scenario.  Johnnies (good chance) and Oles (decidedly less good chance) advance from their pods.  I think Johnnies would host the Sectionals, as Washington is over 500 miles from both SJU and STO.  A nice MIAC doubleheader on 3/9.  Let's call it a 15-to-1 shot.

Make it happen, universe.

It depends on all four teams. If there is someone in the middle, it will move. Not just one team (WashU) not getting to somewhere else. Granted, with Whitman, WashU, UWP (or St. Oles), and SJU.. it looks favorable for the Tommies..,. but still need to win. :)
Are you saying that the NCAA would ask UST to host? Or that it would boot one of the 4 teams that advance in favor of the Tommies??  ;) ;D

I'm sure Dave means the Johnnies. But I'm guessing he hasn't checked the map. Wash U to SJU is 637 miles. With those four schools, Platteville is the only one where two schools can bus.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

SUMMIT!!!!!

Quote from: Pat Coleman on March 02, 2018, 01:38:02 AM
Quote from: miacmaniac on March 01, 2018, 11:03:32 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 01, 2018, 08:36:52 PM
Quote from: txg on March 01, 2018, 12:43:04 PM
MIAC dream scenario.  Johnnies (good chance) and Oles (decidedly less good chance) advance from their pods.  I think Johnnies would host the Sectionals, as Washington is over 500 miles from both SJU and STO.  A nice MIAC doubleheader on 3/9.  Let's call it a 15-to-1 shot.

Make it happen, universe.

It depends on all four teams. If there is someone in the middle, it will move. Not just one team (WashU) not getting to somewhere else. Granted, with Whitman, WashU, UWP (or St. Oles), and SJU.. it looks favorable for the Tommies..,. but still need to win. :)
Are you saying that the NCAA would ask UST to host? Or that it would boot one of the 4 teams that advance in favor of the Tommies??  ;) ;D

I'm sure Dave means the Johnnies. But I'm guessing he hasn't checked the map. Wash U to SJU is 637 miles. With those four schools, Platteville is the only one where two schools can bus.
I was pretty sure that's what he meat too....but it's a mix-up akin of calling a Hatfield "McCoy"  or saying "the Minnesota Packers" (which is awkward to even type!)  :)

No, DP, I wasn't being testy, and sorry if I came across that way.... and you didn't say "However, it does seem a little unusual to see 5 forwards and one post player named to the First team"-- I did  :)  I'm starting to worry about your Palmer-- first you call Olmscheid a Johnnie  and then you attribute my quote to yourself....what next?  Talking about Minneapolis Lakers in the present tense?  :D

Lastly--- Happy Tourney Tip Off Friday to everyone! May the MIAC go 3-0 tonight (or 6-0 if you include the ladies)
After the game, the king and pawn go into the same box.

Italian proverb