FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

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HSCTiger fan

Hscathletics - certainly no one wants a school that is known for tying to squash protests of racism and inequality.  I would also say no one wants a school that is unpatriotic and whose protests offends such a large number of people the way this protest does. I obviously have zero support for being disrespectful in this manner. If their cause is racial equality and social injustice- I whole heartedly support their cause just not the platform and manner in which their cause is being promoted.
Hampden Sydney College
ODAC Champions 77, 82, 83, 87, 07, 09, 11, 13, 14
NCAA Playoffs - 77, 07, 09, 10, 11, 13, 14
The "Game" 60 wins and counting...
11/18/2018 Wally referred to me as Chief and admitted "I don't know about that!"

tigerFanAlso2

donors could solve this issue easily and quickly, at any school

jknezek

#20147
Quote from: Birddawg79 on October 17, 2016, 01:35:19 AM
If you want legal standing then look up United States Code, 36 U.S.C. § 301.


Yes, we've all seen that quoted. For analysis of what it actually means please visit here:

http://www.usflag.org/us.code36.html

The flag code has no penalties for non-compliance on the Federal level. There are state codes that deal with penalties, but many, not all, have been tested and failed at the court level. So despite living on in the legal books, the law you quote is a guideline with no enforceable provisions. As it has been since the Flag Code was agreed to in 1924.

I would also say that one of the provisions in the Flag Code is that the Flag is never to be worn. Want to start arresting every U.S. Track and Field Olympian who wraps themselves in the flag to run a victory lap? Of course not. You couldn't anyway, since it's not something to be penalized, but it exists in the code. See §176

How about any article of clothing with the flag on it? Also not allowed by the Code. Can't be used for Advertising whatsoever. There goes every auto dealership in the U.S. in violation. And every July 4th advert you get.

No part can be used as part of a uniform. Quick, someone arrest the Patriots! And pretty much every sports team in the U.S. after 9-11.

You see what I'm getting at here? The Flag Code is law, it's just not useful law. And we can't pick and choose which of it we are going to enforce, since it's not enforceable, and let the rest of it slide.




Birddawg79

36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem
(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
(Pub. L. 105–225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1263; Pub. L. 110–417, [div. A], title V, § 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat. 4475.)

jknezek

Quote from: Birddawg79 on October 17, 2016, 09:46:16 AM
36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem
(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
(Pub. L. 105–225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1263; Pub. L. 110–417, [div. A], title V, § 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat. 4475.)


Yeah. I know. Notice the bolded portion. Wording is important in legal documentation. Should and must are different words. Also, there is no enforcement. And as I pointed out, this is one part of a large code that is routinely violated with no one complaining. Now we complain, but no one ever complains about the flag being used in other ways. See the bolded portions below:

"§176. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."


You are picking and choosing what you want enforced or what you are offended about. And it's been going on for decades. And since it isn't enforceable, there is nothing to actually follow. I agree with the code on what people SHOULD do. I agree the Guilford players SHOULD stand and respect the flag and anthem.

All quotes from: http://www.usflag.org/us.code36.html#176

hscathletics

Quote from: Birddawg79 on October 17, 2016, 09:46:16 AM
36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem
(a)Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
(Pub. L. 105–225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1263; Pub. L. 110–417, [div. A], title V, § 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat. 4475.)


Should just means it's the recommended, but not required, behavior unless the legal system says otherwise. If they wanted it to be legally required behavior, they would have used shall.

tigerFanAlso2

I think I have lived too long. this behavior is so against everything I'm been taught since grade school and this is why I've become a huge fan of Va. Tech basketball. coach brought military men/women to campus, gave his team a history lesson on why we enjoy freedom of speech, taught the team how to stand at attention while the anthem is being played. and yes, it is mandatory behavior. sounds pretty simple to me. you can protest all you want but you cannot do so while wearing the Va. Tech uniform, this was the standard last year, don't know for sure if this standard is still enforced, I hope it is. 

jknezek

I think most of us feel this way. But that is the point of protest isn't it? A protest won't work if no one notices. People don't notice things they are comfortable with. So you find a way that upsets people. I'm much more supportive of being upset by non-violent means than violent ones. I'll trade all these people disrespecting the anthem and the flag if it diverts one person from murdering police in Dallas or rampaging riots in Baltimore. If the anger needs an outlet, a protest, this is a benign one.

Non-violent protest is a good thing, at least compared to the alternative. Do I wish they found a different way? I do. Especially now that it is has become an issue about the "how" and not the "what".

hscathletics

Quote from: tigerFanAlso2 on October 17, 2016, 10:50:59 AM
I think I have lived too long. this behavior is so against everything I'm been taught since grade school and this is why I've become a huge fan of Va. Tech basketball. coach brought military men/women to campus, gave his team a history lesson on why we enjoy freedom of speech, taught the team how to stand at attention while the anthem is being played. and yes, it is mandatory behavior. sounds pretty simple to me. you can protest all you want but you cannot do so while wearing the Va. Tech uniform, this was the standard last year, don't know for sure if this standard is still enforced, I hope it is.
Since Virginia Tech is a state school, what Buzz Williams is doing is actually illegal. State organizations aren't allowed to forbid or punish people from protecting as long as it doesn't disrupt normal operation (and a few other things that aren't applicable here).

HSCTiger fan

It's got everyone's attention.  It is offensive to the 22 million veterans and 2.5 million active military.  And countless millions of patriotic Americans.  It has and will accomplish nothing more than strengthen the resolve of those standing against it. 

It's an ignorant protest - protesting the very flag that gave the protestors the right to play a game, go to college, be a student. The protesters don't seem that oppressed to me.

If they want to wear their uniforms and protest Coach R should encourage them wear them on a Monday and march up Friendly Ave. That would require effort to organize and plan. Bending to one knee is easy and takes little effort.
Hampden Sydney College
ODAC Champions 77, 82, 83, 87, 07, 09, 11, 13, 14
NCAA Playoffs - 77, 07, 09, 10, 11, 13, 14
The "Game" 60 wins and counting...
11/18/2018 Wally referred to me as Chief and admitted "I don't know about that!"

tigerFanAlso2

so coach Williams is breaking the law ?


Jk

yep, I rather have peaceful protest vs. violent ones for sure. still think I've lived too long. I can't watch this stuff much longer, would have left the game had I been there, my peaceful protest. don't watch NFL as a result, will stop watching/supporting college sports if this continues. fans can protest as well by simply not showing up and I hope they do. 

HSCTiger fan

Quote from: hscathletics on October 17, 2016, 11:35:15 AM
Quote from: tigerFanAlso2 on October 17, 2016, 10:50:59 AM
I think I have lived too long. this behavior is so against everything I'm been taught since grade school and this is why I've become a huge fan of Va. Tech basketball. coach brought military men/women to campus, gave his team a history lesson on why we enjoy freedom of speech, taught the team how to stand at attention while the anthem is being played. and yes, it is mandatory behavior. sounds pretty simple to me. you can protest all you want but you cannot do so while wearing the Va. Tech uniform, this was the standard last year, don't know for sure if this standard is still enforced, I hope it is.
Since Virginia Tech is a state school, what Buzz Williams is doing is actually illegal. State organizations aren't allowed to forbid or punish people from protecting as long as it doesn't disrupt normal operation (and a few other things that aren't applicable here).

What would they sue for?  What are their damages?  "Well judge he did not play me because I protested."  He would have to go to court with an American flag, take an oath to a US court to only tell the court he was protesting at voluntary participation event AS A PARTICIPANT and the coach did not play him.  Good luck with that argument.
Hampden Sydney College
ODAC Champions 77, 82, 83, 87, 07, 09, 11, 13, 14
NCAA Playoffs - 77, 07, 09, 10, 11, 13, 14
The "Game" 60 wins and counting...
11/18/2018 Wally referred to me as Chief and admitted "I don't know about that!"

HSCTiger fan

Quote from: tigerFanAlso2 on October 17, 2016, 11:59:02 AM
so coach Williams is breaking the law ?


Jk

yep, I rather have peaceful protest vs. violent ones for sure. still think I've lived too long. I can't watch this stuff much longer, would have left the game had I been there, my peaceful protest. don't watch NFL as a result, will stop watching/supporting college sports if this continues. fans can protest as well by simply not showing up and I hope they do.

Maybe they have. A whopping 1200 are listed as being at the GC game this past Saturday.
Hampden Sydney College
ODAC Champions 77, 82, 83, 87, 07, 09, 11, 13, 14
NCAA Playoffs - 77, 07, 09, 10, 11, 13, 14
The "Game" 60 wins and counting...
11/18/2018 Wally referred to me as Chief and admitted "I don't know about that!"

Ralph Turner

Quote from: tigerFanAlso2 on October 17, 2016, 11:59:02 AM
so coach Williams is breaking the law ?


Jk

yep, I rather have peaceful protest vs. violent ones for sure. still think I've lived too long. I can't watch this stuff much longer, would have left the game had I been there, my peaceful protest. don't watch NFL as a result, will stop watching/supporting college sports if this continues. fans can protest as well by simply not showing up and I hope they do.
Malcolm Gladwell wrote the book, The Tipping Point. That is the event, moment, situation when things change.

I  have noted on another (non-D3) forum that I believe that historians might look back at the Colin Kaepernick episode as the tipping point for NFL network televised football games and NFL support in general.

When does a disgruntled alum write the Vice President for Institutional Advancement at the alma mater and request to have his/her name removed from the mailing list?

jknezek

Quote from: tigerFanAlso2 on October 17, 2016, 11:59:02 AM
so coach Williams is breaking the law ?


Jk

yep, I rather have peaceful protest vs. violent ones for sure. still think I've lived too long. I can't watch this stuff much longer, would have left the game had I been there, my peaceful protest. don't watch NFL as a result, will stop watching/supporting college sports if this continues. fans can protest as well by simply not showing up and I hope they do.

Well I think you have the right of it tfa2. Just like I support their right to peaceful protest I fully support, and completely agree, with yours! I watch precious little of the NFL. I find it boring compared to college and I haven't been to an NFL game in over a decade. I'm unlikely to go any time soon. I won't go see a US Women's National Team Soccer game so long as Megan Rapinoe is kneeling while simultaneously representing our country. And yes, in the past I have taken my daughter to those games. But I think Rapinoe has the right, even if I think it is doubly offensive while playing for the national team and I won't help support the team financially while it is happening.