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Division III football (Post Patterns) => General football => Topic started by: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 05:37:21 PM

Title: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 05:37:21 PM
I wanted to avoid creating a new thread for this, but I couldn't find an appropriate place to post this....so here it is.

After watching a few Mount Union games this season it got me thinking of the level of talent Mount brings in, compared to other football programs. The difference is staggering. So staggering that I don't think it's matched in any other level of football...which is bad news for many D3 football teams.

D3 Talent Gap (http://www.wiacfootball.blogspot.com)
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 11, 2012, 05:54:03 PM
One way they get players from FL is they come to the Small College Recruiting Fairs held in the state in February (after the D1 National Signing day).

Mount Union, Heidelberg, Marietta, Ohio Northern, Franklin, Averett and UW-Plateville were at the Tampa one last year.

I think there are 3 or 4 of those Recruiting Fairs across FL in about a weeks time.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 06:34:53 PM
Those all the D3 schools there? I'm surprised no teams from the south step up shop there.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: AO on December 11, 2012, 06:34:59 PM
It would certainly be fun to see Mount be allowed to move up a division or two in football only and have the sorts of competitive games they had against Mary Hardin-Baylor more often. 
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 11, 2012, 06:37:14 PM
It's only bad news if you don't believe in the D3 ethos. Mt. Union still has a long way to go to match Kenyon's swimming dominance. (Now being pushed by Denison...)

They're D3. They stay. Period. Paragraph. Why do we keep having this discussion?
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 11, 2012, 06:48:50 PM
Given the number of consecutive national championships under the Raiders' belts ...

ooops, never mind.   :o
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 06:49:15 PM
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2012, 06:37:14 PM
It's only bad news if you don't believe in the D3 ethos. Mt. Union still has a long way to go to match Kenyon's swimming dominance. (Now being pushed by Denison...)

They're D3. They stay. Period. Paragraph. Why do we keep having this discussion?

Agreed. They aren't going anywhere...nor should they. I was hoping this topic would create a discussion other than Mount moving out of D3
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on December 11, 2012, 06:57:29 PM
In fairness to AO, he was not suggesting they could (or should) move up (and clearly recognized that the NCAA will not allow a single sport to do so).  I would agree with him that it would be fun to see what UMU could do against a steady diet of d2 or d1AA competition.  (Or for that matter, even just one game between them and Akron for area bragging rights!)

I realize there are some who keep beating that poor, dead horse, but AO was clearly not one of them, if the post is read the way I took it.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2012, 07:32:11 PM
I feel pretty comfortable in saying that Mount Union would get their hats handed to them by Akron or any similarly moribund FBS team.  Mount Union will have some players that could probably play at Akron.  Akron will have 100 players that could play at Mount Union.  Not to disrespect the Raiders in any way, but it's just a different ballgame in Division I. 
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2012, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 05:37:21 PM
I wanted to avoid creating a new thread for this, but I couldn't find an appropriate place to post this....so here it is.

After watching a few Mount Union games this season it got me thinking of the level of talent Mount brings in, compared to other football programs. The difference is staggering. So staggering that I don't think it's matched in any other level of football...which is bad news for many D3 football teams.

D3 Talent Gap (http://www.wiacfootball.blogspot.com)
No, not really. You have roughly 240 schools whose quality of talent reflects a Gaussian distribution, just like D1 FBS, D1 FCS and D-2.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 11, 2012, 08:01:59 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 06:34:53 PM
Those all the D3 schools there? I'm surprised no teams from the south step up shop there.
. Those are the ones I can remember.  There were some D2 and NAIA schools there also.  I'll keep better notes this spring.  Last year was my first year going and was trying to get some of my seniors to play ball in college.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2012, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 05:37:21 PM
I wanted to avoid creating a new thread for this, but I couldn't find an appropriate place to post this....so here it is.

After watching a few Mount Union games this season it got me thinking of the level of talent Mount brings in, compared to other football programs. The difference is staggering. So staggering that I don't think it's matched in any other level of football...which is bad news for many D3 football teams.

D3 Talent Gap (http://www.wiacfootball.blogspot.com)
No, not really. You have roughly 240 schools whose quality of talent reflects a Gaussian distribution, just like D1 FBS, D1 FCS and D-2.

Yea, but isn't D3 at least twice the size of any other division? Making the disparity that much greater. Realistically 200+ schools might never be Stagg Bowl contender.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2012, 08:10:30 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2012, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 05:37:21 PM
I wanted to avoid creating a new thread for this, but I couldn't find an appropriate place to post this....so here it is.

After watching a few Mount Union games this season it got me thinking of the level of talent Mount brings in, compared to other football programs. The difference is staggering. So staggering that I don't think it's matched in any other level of football...which is bad news for many D3 football teams.

D3 Talent Gap (http://www.wiacfootball.blogspot.com)
No, not really. You have roughly 240 schools whose quality of talent reflects a Gaussian distribution, just like D1 FBS, D1 FCS and D-2.

Yea, but isn't D3 at least twice the size of any other division? Making the disparity that much greater. Realistically 200+ schools might never be Stagg Bowl contender.
Over the last decade 230 schools have not been Stagg contenders!   ;)

However, we D3 fans remember that the focus on D3 athletics is regional/conference in nature. The playoffs are "gravy".
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 08:11:51 PM
Plus the All Americans in D1 all are at the same talent level. Where as in DIII,  I always think there are a few players each year that are light years ahead of their peers. Those players usually play for the same small grouping of schools.

You just don't see that gap in D1 typically like you do down here.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Desertraider on December 11, 2012, 09:09:51 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on December 11, 2012, 07:32:11 PM
I feel pretty comfortable in saying that Mount Union would get their hats handed to them by Akron or any similarly moribund FBS team.  Mount Union will have some players that could probably play at Akron.  Akron will have 100 players that could play at Mount Union.  Not to disrespect the Raiders in any way, but it's just a different ballgame in Division I.

They would also hand them their coats and bags after getting the crap kicked out of them. I went to Akron for grad school, I have seen Akron play - I feel extremely confident in saying that an Akron v. Mount game would result in more fans jumping on the "Mount should move up" bandwagon. As odd as it may sound - Mount won't play Akron because it would be a step down from the OAC.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 11, 2012, 09:23:42 PM
Of course, seeing the Arizona Cardinals this past Sunday would make you think Alabama or Oregon would beat them. Not gonna happen. Mt. Union's Massey is roughly equal of Akron, Southern Miss and New Mexico State (and U Mass) but there are so few data points to compare with limited non-conference and inter-divisional games.

I said on another board I didn't think Mt. Union could beat Akron or Southern Miss regularly - probably 3 times out of 10. Keith thinks it's even less. Sometimes when we see someone at a high level play poorly and another at a lower level play well we don't make the level transition in our minds. This happens to many in baseball - seeing someone who is a 'bum' in the big leagues and compare it to a phenom in A ball - the 'bum' is probably better at that juncture.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2012, 10:32:29 PM
Quote from: desertraider on December 11, 2012, 09:09:51 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on December 11, 2012, 07:32:11 PM
I feel pretty comfortable in saying that Mount Union would get their hats handed to them by Akron or any similarly moribund FBS team.  Mount Union will have some players that could probably play at Akron.  Akron will have 100 players that could play at Mount Union.  Not to disrespect the Raiders in any way, but it's just a different ballgame in Division I.

They would also hand them their coats and bags after getting the crap kicked out of them. I went to Akron for grad school, I have seen Akron play - I feel extremely confident in saying that an Akron v. Mount game would result in more fans jumping on the "Mount should move up" bandwagon. As odd as it may sound - Mount won't play Akron because it would be a step down from the OAC.

This is hyperbole, right?  I mean it has to be.  There wasn't a ton to crow about out of the OAC in 2012. 

Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2012, 09:23:42 PM
Of course, seeing the Arizona Cardinals this past Sunday would make you think Alabama or Oregon would beat them. Not gonna happen. Mt. Union's Massey is roughly equal of Akron, Southern Miss and New Mexico State (and U Mass) but there are so few data points to compare with limited non-conference and inter-divisional games.

I said on another board I didn't think Mt. Union could beat Akron or Southern Miss regularly - probably 3 times out of 10. Keith thinks it's even less. Sometimes when we see someone at a high level play poorly and another at a lower level play well we don't make the level transition in our minds. This happens to many in baseball - seeing someone who is a 'bum' in the big leagues and compare it to a phenom in A ball - the 'bum' is probably better at that juncture.

I would say less as well. 
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 12, 2012, 09:35:19 AM
It's not just football folks. When we had this same discussion last year, couched under the subject "Is the dominance of UWW and UMU bad for D3 football" I put together a list of dynasties across multiple sports in D3 as well as the comparable ones I could find in D1 and D2. As you move down from D1 to D2 to D3, you get more and greater dynasties in the sports.

This is easily explained by the lack of a leveller, allowing different schools to allocate resources and interest in a greater disparity. In my mind, the rules for D3 make it easier for dynasties to appear and to be sustained. That does not mean that creating a dynasty is EASY, just that the rules allow for it to happen more easily at the D3 level. I've stated many times I'm amazed by UMU and what LK has accomplished and listed some of the milestones over on the ODAC board two weeks or so ago just to emphasize the magnitude of UMU's dominance.

Just look at D1 and how we are talking about Alabama this year. They have won 2 of 3 with a possibility of going 3 of 4 and they are a dynasty. That is nothing compared to UMU or UWW recently. All that being said, what UMU has done is perfectly within the D3 rules and it is up to the rest of D3 to improve, not UMU to either weaken or move to a tougher division.

The talent gap is a byproduct of how D3 is set up and it applies to all sports. You will have to find a levelling mechanism if you don't like it. A bit off topic, but this is also the only way a D4 would make sense. D1, D2 and D3 are distinguished primarily by scholarships. Since D3 provides no scholarships, and it would be silly to offer negative scholarships, the only way a D4 would make sense is with the creation of a "new" leveller that only some parts of D3 would want to participate in. Otherwise, there would be no distinction between D3 and a possible D4 other than "we don't like those guys so we're going to make our own group."
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 12, 2012, 09:41:12 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 12, 2012, 09:35:19 AM
The talent gap is a byproduct of how D3 is set up and it applies to all sports. You will have to find a levelling mechanism if you don't like it. A bit off topic, but this is also the only way a D4 would make sense. D1, D2 and D3 are distinguished primarily by scholarships. Since D3 provides no scholarships, and it would be silly to offer negative scholarships, the only way a D4 would make sense is with the creation of a "new" leveller that only some parts of D3 would want to participate in. Otherwise, there would be no distinction between D3 and a possible D4 other than "we don't like those guys so we're going to make our own group."

The fact that Mount can bring in athletes that are head and shoulders above their competition is just mind boggling to me. They get some amazing athletes (on a regular basis) come through that football program
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 12, 2012, 10:45:59 AM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 12, 2012, 09:41:12 AM
The fact that Mount can bring in athletes that are head and shoulders above their competition is just mind boggling to me. They get some amazing athletes (on a regular basis) come through that football program

I loved dreaming up this posting. Coincidentally, I posted it exactly one year ago today:

""""
Winning breeds recruiting which breeds winning. UMU has been the best at that for a very long time. Lets say you could be a marginal D1 or decent D1A or D2 player. Then Coach Kehres comes to your house and sits you down and says,

"Listen Tom. I know there are some good schools out there looking for you. I know they can offer you a place to play and a chance to compete at a high level. I know some of them will even offer you an athletic scholarship. And that's great. But here is what I can offer you."

"We play for a national title every year. 15 of the last 17 national title games have featured UMU. Come here and play for a title. Heck, we haven't had a senior class not play for a National title since that Freshman class that hit campus in what, 1989? Heck, that was before you were born."

"So, top level, national championship tries when you hit campus. That's one. Two, how about money? They're offering you a partial athletic scholarship, and that's great. But we do in-depth needs analysis on all our incoming students. If you qualify, UMU can be just as affordable as any other school that is talking to you. And we're a great school. Number 10 in the U.S. News Regional Rankings. We're an affordable and very strong college."

"Three, lets talk about facilities. Some of the stadiums might be bigger, but our weight room, locker rooms, and practice fields are top notch. You may not play in front of 10K every week, but you'll play in front of your family who will have great seats and a supportive student section. And you'll be on TV. Our TV coverage is as good, or better counting the national title, than most 1A and 2 programs because we are a national name."

"Four, let's talk about the next step. UMU is a great school and you'll get a great education. But you won't be the first UMU player invited to the combine or drafted if you are good enough. It doesn't happen all the time, but we've got that kind of exposure. If you are good enough, you'll get a shot coming from UMU just as much as you would at D2 State. In fact, with our name recognition, it might just be better."

"So, we've got the program, we've got the history, we've got the academics, we've got the financials, we've got the facilities and we've got your future. 15 out of the last 17 national title games have featured us, and we want you to be a part of 19 of 21. You won't get better coaching, better exposure, better playing time, or a better shot at winning national titles anywhere but UMU."

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how a dynasty gets the players to stay on top. There is nothing underhanded going on. UMU has a sales pitch that can't be topped. They are first rate for a lot of reasons and the only way to break that up is to keep them out of the Stagg Bowl for more than a year or two at a time.
"""
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 12, 2012, 11:18:10 AM
Yea, yea, yea...I've heard all about this "winning breeds success" stuff.

However, there's been teams thats been successful longer than Mount. Like St. John's and Linfield to name a few, but they haven't been close to experiencing the same kind of success as Mount. Nor have they been able to bring in the kind of athletes that Mount has.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on December 12, 2012, 11:24:08 AM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2012, 08:10:30 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 08:04:42 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2012, 07:45:20 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 05:37:21 PM
I wanted to avoid creating a new thread for this, but I couldn't find an appropriate place to post this....so here it is.

After watching a few Mount Union games this season it got me thinking of the level of talent Mount brings in, compared to other football programs. The difference is staggering. So staggering that I don't think it's matched in any other level of football...which is bad news for many D3 football teams.

D3 Talent Gap (http://www.wiacfootball.blogspot.com)
No, not really. You have roughly 240 schools whose quality of talent reflects a Gaussian distribution, just like D1 FBS, D1 FCS and D-2.

Yea, but isn't D3 at least twice the size of any other division? Making the disparity that much greater. Realistically 200+ schools might never be Stagg Bowl contender.
Over the last decade 230 schools have not been Stagg contenders!   ;)

However, we D3 fans remember that the focus on D3 athletics is regional/conference in nature. The playoffs are "gravy".

Bolded for emphasis.

The playoffs and Stagg Bowl are fantastic, but the really great thing about Division III football, IMO, is the fact that thousands of young men from 230+ universities and colleges across the nation get to suit up and play ball against young men from their peer institutions on Saturdays throughout the fall.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 12, 2012, 11:31:04 AM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 12, 2012, 11:18:10 AM
Yea, yea, yea...I've heard all about this "winning breeds success" stuff.

However, there's been teams thats been successful longer than Mount. Like St. John's and Linfield to name a few, but they haven't been close to experiencing the same kind of success as Mount. Nor have they been able to bring in the kind of athletes that Mount has.

Success at a conference level is not the same as success at a national level. No one has been as successful as Mount in the last 20 years. Linfield and St. Johns are great programs. Both have had national and conference success. Both have had outstanding coaches. I highly doubt there is just one small factor that leads to 20 years of national success as compared to 40 years of regional success and occassional national breakthroughs. There is probably a bit of extra everything and a bit of luck as well.

Mount's success started just 2 or 3 years after LK arrived. It's not real hard to draw a simple conclusion that LK is just that good as a recruiter, as a coach, as a talent evaluator both on the field and with his coaches. His success also started at the right time, coinciding with an age of increased information dissemination (cable and the internet), making success even more of a weapon.

There are a lot of factors that went into Mount building a dynasty that probably started with the right coach at the right time. While success by itself does not guarantee continued success, it is a big leg up. I would say as long as LK is firmly in charge of that program, and is devoting a similar energy level to the job now as he devoted to it 10 years or so ago, Mount will be a very difficult program to dislodge.

Mount is in a football strong part of the country, it has a great coach, a great pedigree, and appears to have the institutional will to build facilities and send coaches on recruiting trips (FL) that will continue to help them get a shot at the best possible athletes. Put it all together with the sales pitch only they can provide and they probably will continue to get the pick of the litter.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on December 12, 2012, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2012, 09:23:42 PM
Of course, seeing the Arizona Cardinals this past Sunday would make you think Alabama or Oregon would beat them. Not gonna happen. Mt. Union's Massey is roughly equal of Akron, Southern Miss and New Mexico State (and U Mass) but there are so few data points to compare with limited non-conference and inter-divisional games.

I said on another board I didn't think Mt. Union could beat Akron or Southern Miss regularly - probably 3 times out of 10. Keith thinks it's even less. Sometimes when we see someone at a high level play poorly and another at a lower level play well we don't make the level transition in our minds.

Agreed completely.

Re: Akron vs. Mount Union, it is very easy for desertraider to armchair this and point out that Akron is awful, going 1-11 (with the lone win coming against an FCS team)...but I think you're vastly underestimating the difference in levels as smedindy mentions here.  Every opponent on Akron's schedule is not only better than anyone on Mount Union's schedule, but significantly better. 

I do think Mount Union and the rest of Division III's short list of "elites" could play some competitive games against the absolute dregs of FBS, but I'd stop well short of suggesting that they would be favored.  Some of the very best FCS teams have managed to knock off some of the dregs of FBS in the last few seasons, but they still lose just as often as they win...and those are teams with 63 more scholarship athletes than Mount Union.

A fascinating semi-related question: if you're a Big Ten team looking to fill out your nonconference schedule with a creampuff that's a guaranteed victory: would you rather schedule a struggling team from the lower echelon of FBS (i.e. the MAC or Conference USA), or a powerful FCS team like Appalachian State (University of Michigan jokes aside, please) or North Dakota State?  While the talent level is probably similar between the lower-echelon FBS teams compared to the quality FCS opponents, as the Big Ten coach, I'd be much more "scared" of the quality FCS opponent because they may be better coached and their players may be more "used to" winning than the doormats from the lower-echelon FBS conferences.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: hickory_cornhusker on December 12, 2012, 01:10:52 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on December 12, 2012, 11:49:14 AM
Quote from: smedindy on December 11, 2012, 09:23:42 PM
Of course, seeing the Arizona Cardinals this past Sunday would make you think Alabama or Oregon would beat them. Not gonna happen. Mt. Union's Massey is roughly equal of Akron, Southern Miss and New Mexico State (and U Mass) but there are so few data points to compare with limited non-conference and inter-divisional games.

I said on another board I didn't think Mt. Union could beat Akron or Southern Miss regularly - probably 3 times out of 10. Keith thinks it's even less. Sometimes when we see someone at a high level play poorly and another at a lower level play well we don't make the level transition in our minds.

Agreed completely.

Re: Akron vs. Mount Union, it is very easy for desertraider to armchair this and point out that Akron is awful, going 1-11 (with the lone win coming against an FCS team)...but I think you're vastly underestimating the difference in levels as smedindy mentions here.  Every opponent on Akron's schedule is not only better than anyone on Mount Union's schedule, but significantly better. 

I do think Mount Union and the rest of Division III's short list of "elites" could play some competitive games against the absolute dregs of FBS, but I'd stop well short of suggesting that they would be favored.  Some of the very best FCS teams have managed to knock off some of the dregs of FBS in the last few seasons, but they still lose just as often as they win...and those are teams with 63 more scholarship athletes than Mount Union.

A fascinating semi-related question: if you're a Big Ten team looking to fill out your nonconference schedule with a creampuff that's a guaranteed victory: would you rather schedule a struggling team from the lower echelon of FBS (i.e. the MAC or Conference USA), or a powerful FCS team like Appalachian State (University of Michigan jokes aside, please) or North Dakota State?  While the talent level is probably similar between the lower-echelon FBS teams compared to the quality FCS opponents, as the Big Ten coach, I'd be much more "scared" of the quality FCS opponent because they may be better coached and their players may be more "used to" winning than the doormats from the lower-echelon FBS conferences.

Since only one FCS game can be counted toward an FBS team's pursuit of bowl eligibility the FBS teams command a higher fee to leave in a body bag. I think it's something like around $450,000 for an FCS team to play and $900,000 for an FBS team to play. So sometimes the BCS teams don't want to pay the extra half a million. Since only about 20 athletic departments in the country are currently operating in the black some can't afford it.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 12, 2012, 02:55:32 PM
I also like to study successful programs for what they can teach one about management, leadership and organization of systems. Coach Kehres has a successful system that can be taught to his players for when they have positions of leadership.

I learned so much about organizational success from my high school coach Bob McQueen, who later won a state 5AAAAA championship at Temple High School, back when there was one champion for 200 schools in the classification.  The insights that I gained from how he ran practice, the way that all his ancillary personnel did their jobs, the delegation of power and authority... all of that stuff.

I am sure that we see much at that in D-III, Kehres, Coach Fred at UMHB, Gagliardi at St Johns, Mohr at Trinity, and that is just football.

My favorite is Barbara Crousen, the track coach at McMurry, and the only woman in the history of the NCAA to win one, and now 2, Men's National Championships.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: ITH radio on December 12, 2012, 03:39:13 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 11, 2012, 06:34:53 PM
Those all the D3 schools there? I'm surprised no teams from the south step up shop there.

No.  Hobart and other schools from the east and southern regions are there as well.  The Statesmen have more players on their roster from FL than the states of NJ and MA to name a few.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 12, 2012, 06:30:21 PM
Quote from: 02 Warhawk on December 12, 2012, 11:18:10 AM
Yea, yea, yea...I've heard all about this "winning breeds success" stuff.

However, there's been teams thats been successful longer than Mount. Like St. John's and Linfield to name a few, but they haven't been close to experiencing the same kind of success as Mount. Nor have they been able to bring in the kind of athletes that Mount has.

Again, come talk when the Kenyon level of success in swimming is reached. They continually bring in the depth needed to compete for championships. Now, Denison has joined them. This is D-3 and when you have a choice academically and athletically to go to "A" or "B", if "A" is the one winning championships many times you pick "A".

Kenyon's (and Denison's) swimming programs basically sell themselves - if you are recruited for them, and can hack it academically you know you're going to be part of a title-contending team. While Mt. Union isn't as academically rigorous as either Kenyon or Denison, it's not a diploma mill either - you have to do work to get your degree. So if you can do the work and LK says, come here, we want you, then it may not be that tough of a choice for a typical HS senior with decent grades and board scores (depending on the academic program he wants to follow, of course).

How many Mt. Union football players just GO there without being recruited?
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Desertraider on December 12, 2012, 09:22:31 PM
Smedindy- Most of the guys who go to Mount and are not recruited are locals that grew up watching and decided to give it a shot. I don't know of any non-locals that just show up on campus and head to the field.

Extartan - I get what you are saying. But I disagree in the case of Akron. I have seen Mount and Akron play ove the years (Mount more often). I get the speed and talent and all that - but I still say that not only would Mount win this year, they would win most of the previous 15. Akron has a few really good players, but no concept of team football. Watch a game and you see 11 guys looking for stats. With LK on the sidelines - I would take Mount and their tradition against Akron any day. Would it be a blow out - no way, no more than a 2 score victory.

As far as 'armchairing' - due it's a discussion board. We are ALL armchairing in here 8-).
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on December 13, 2012, 02:54:26 PM
Quote from: desertraider on December 12, 2012, 09:22:31 PM
Extartan - I get what you are saying. But I disagree in the case of Akron. I have seen Mount and Akron play ove the years (Mount more often). I get the speed and talent and all that - but I still say that not only would Mount win this year, they would win most of the previous 15. Akron has a few really good players, but no concept of team football. Watch a game and you see 11 guys looking for stats. With LK on the sidelines - I would take Mount and their tradition against Akron any day. Would it be a blow out - no way, no more than a 2 score victory.

As far as 'armchairing' - due it's a discussion board. We are ALL armchairing in here 8-).

Oh, I know it's all armchairing, don't take any offense. 

I do get your side of the coin, which is kinda why I posed the question above re: whether you'd be more scored of getting upset a bottom-dwelling FBS team like Akron or by a winning FCS program.  I think there's some element of team play, better coaching, and tradition in top programs from lower levels that might offset the talent gap between them and an Akron.  I think we both have similar views of the "issues" in play here, just differing opinions on what the actualy "outcome" of the hypothetical game would be.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: ExTartanPlayer on December 13, 2012, 03:04:20 PM
One pertinent side comment here:

My high school just won a playoff game in the state semifinals.  My high school is a long-time "local power" (ten double-digit wins in the last twenty-odd seasons under the same head coach; I played for two of those, but we never advanced beyond the state quarterfinals) that has never quite risen to the "state championship" level until this year.  But the program has a long tradition of winning, a stable coaching staff, and is in their third straight season with a deep playoff run: the 2010 and 2011 teams both won several playoff games with many underclassmen starting, all of whom are currently seniors, so it is a very experienced group.  They might not be the most talented squad of pure "athletes" but they're certainly a well-coached and deep squad with lots of playoff experience.

In the semifinals, they played a relative up-and-comer from Philadelphia that supposedly was going to eat our lunch because they blew out every opponent so far this season, they had so much more speed, they have more Division I recruits, their OL averaged 280 pounds, and they have no two-way players.  But they also were relative "noobs" (lost in the first round of the playoffs last year) with much less experience on the sideline in the playoff atmosphere.

We won going away, 35-13.  They absolutely had more talent in terms of pure speed and size, but our side was more disciplined, better coached, and just played better football.  They made some mistakes, and our guys capitalized.

So I can kinda see it happening.  The program with a tradition of winning and excellent coaching on the sideline (Mount) might be able to take the team with far more talent (Akron) with one great game of team play and better fundamentals.  I still think Akron would win more often than not in this hypothetical series, though.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: hazzben on December 14, 2012, 10:34:36 AM
I'll say this about the talent gap.

After watching the NAIA National Championship game last night, Morningside v. Marian I had a couple thoughts.

First, exciting game. Both teams scored TD's in the final 2 minutes and it went to OT.

Second, ugliest championship trophy in all of sports. Looks like something made in an 8th grade art project. Seriuosly, that's the best they could do  :o

Third, I think any team in the final Top 10 for D3 this year would have been favored to beat both teams. This was a drastic downgrade from the dominant Carroll and USF teams of the previous editions. NAIA has lost several prominent teams to DII the past few years, and the loss has affected the product. I was surprised by the lack of discipline, speed and relative lack of size on the O/D-Lines. We might have a talent gap. Although I don't think non-UWW or Mount All-America players aren't deserving, as some have argued. I definitely thing I'd rather had exceptional teams at the top that raise the level of play than see two very good but not great teams face off in the Stagg.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on December 14, 2012, 11:28:53 AM
Quote from: hazzben on December 14, 2012, 10:34:36 AM
Third, I think any team in the final Top 10 for D3 this year would have been favored to beat both teams. This was a drastic downgrade from the dominant Carroll and USF teams of the previous editions. NAIA has lost several prominent teams to DII the past few years, and the loss has affected the product. I was surprised by the lack of discipline, speed and relative lack of size on the O/D-Lines. We might have a talent gap. Although I don't think non-UWW or Mount All-America players aren't deserving, as some have argued. I definitely thing I'd rather had exceptional teams at the top that raise the level of play than see two very good but not great teams face off in the Stagg.

It just seems to me that the All-Americans on Mount (and sometimes Whitewater) seem to be playing at a different level then some of their peers on the All American team. I guess that explains why their best players from the past few seasons have gone on to play on Sundays (Garcon and Shorts).

I wonder who's next for them?? Collins has been great, but I don't think he's Garcon and Shorts great.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: K-Mack on April 03, 2013, 06:40:25 PM
Here's an angle on the talent gap that's frequently discussed, but hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.

Mount Union is in a football hotbed (Ohio), is taking advantage of the championships and exposure by recruiting Florida (Pierre, Dieuseul, Denton), California and Texas, and has a stable coaching staff and reputation so that HS coaches are comfortable sending their kids there.

But a major difference is that Mount Union is bringing in 200 players per year, or nearly 10 starting lineups, and is playing a JV program.

That's something that Wesley, St. John's, Linfield et. al. have in common, the competition within the program and the chance to let players play before they actually suit up in a varsity game.

Also 2-5 weeks of playoffs is significant extra practice for your top 58+
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: mattvsmith on April 03, 2013, 09:38:00 PM
If Hobart brought in200 players a year, the football team alone would be 20-25% of the school would be football players.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: jknezek on April 03, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Quote from: Rt Rev J.H. Hobart on April 03, 2013, 09:38:00 PM
If Hobart brought in200 players a year, the football team alone would be 20-25% of the school would be football players.

That doesn't really stop UMU. A football roster of 200 is approximately 9% of the student body according to US News which shows the enrollment just under 2200. UMU has found it be very beneficial to have a top tier football program. The school's exposure has increased, as has it's reputation (as I can measure it through the admittedly flawed US News rankings and other services). Sometimes devoting resources to an ancillary activity out of proportion to your student body is a very smart decision. I doubt UMU is the only one that has discovered this. Football, with it's large roster size, male involvement, and alumni identification, is a great sport to have an outsize impact on your school. Especially as males increasingly become the minority on college campuses.

Higher education in the U.S. is a very competitive market place. Only the truly elite schools don't worry about where and how strong their next class will be every year. So finding a way to differentiate, just like in any other crowded market, is important. Athletics can be a good way of doing it. That being said, it's certainly not guaranteed to work. For every UMU that seems to have successfully leveraged an athletic program there is probably a corresponding school that devoted the resources and got little to nothing in return.

So to answer the original question Keith asked, having a JV team, more players on campus, and a stronger recruiting network probably would help many teams. That being said, it probably works best when not everyone is doing it. Not to say UMU wouldn't still be the cream of the crop if everyone TRIED to copy their system, just that the relative performance changes among the copycats would be minimal.

But if a couple schools want to devote the resources, and have the correct people in place to make it happen, it could certainly make a difference. The question remains, is it worth it to the school to devote those resources in that direction?
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 10, 2013, 04:28:16 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on April 03, 2013, 06:40:25 PM
Here's an angle on the talent gap that's frequently discussed, but hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.

Mount Union is in a football hotbed (Ohio), is taking advantage of the championships and exposure by recruiting Florida (Pierre, Dieuseul, Denton), California and Texas, and has a stable coaching staff and reputation so that HS coaches are comfortable sending their kids there.

But a major difference is that Mount Union is bringing in 200 players per year, or nearly 10 starting lineups, and is playing a JV program.

That's something that Wesley, St. John's, Linfield et. al. have in common, the competition within the program and the chance to let players play before they actually suit up in a varsity game.

Also 2-5 weeks of playoffs is significant extra practice for your top 58+

Actually, everyone can practice, not just the top 58. The only practices that are limited to that number are the ones in Salem.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: frank uible on April 11, 2013, 08:21:09 AM
Is the talent gap between Mount Union and the top team in a typical d3 conference greater than the talent gap between that top team and the bottom team in that conference? I'd guess that the gap in both cases would typically amount to about 30-40 points per game.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: 02 Warhawk on April 11, 2013, 10:55:52 AM
Quote from: frank uible on April 11, 2013, 08:21:09 AM
Is the talent gap between Mount Union and the top team in a typical d3 conference greater than the talent gap between that top team and the bottom team in that conference? I'd guess that the gap in both cases would typically amount to about 30-40 points per game.

This would be a perfect example of what you're talking about (last season):

Mount Union beat Johns Hopkins (CC) 55-13
While JH beat McDaniel 49-7

Mount over Franklin (HCAC) 45-7
Franklin over Anderson 69-0

Mount over Widener (MAC) 72-17
Widener over Misericordia 67-0

Mount over MHB 48-35(ASC)
MHB over Howard Payne 68-6

Mount over St. Thomas (MIAC) 28-10
St. Thomas over Hamline 51-9

ATN Conference Ranks
CC #12
HCAC #25
MAC #11
ASC #6
MIAC #3

Seems like the gap between that top team and the bottom team is slighlty greater than Mount and most top conference teams. However, that gap significantly widens as the conferences get tougher (as seen with the ASC and MIAC).
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Bombers798891 on April 11, 2013, 12:13:56 PM
Quote from: frank uible on April 11, 2013, 08:21:09 AM
Is the talent gap between Mount Union and the top team in a typical d3 conference greater than the talent gap between that top team and the bottom team in that conference? I'd guess that the gap in both cases would typically amount to about 30-40 points per game.

Man, I really hope not.

If we ranked the teams in order from 1-239 (Is this the number?) Mount's 1, then I bet most of the teams that are the tops in a typical conference fall in the 10-35 range. But the bottom teams probably fall in the high 100s/200's. Even though there's not a standard amount of distance between the quality of all the teams (there may be no real difference between the litany of 6-4, 5-5, 4-6 teams for example) those top teams still fall a LOT closer to Mount on a scale than they do the bad ones. I'd hope the gap was closer at the top.

But is there a way to measure that, really? We've got way more data for one hypothetical gap than the other, and score differentials are always subject to odd quirkiness (garbage time TD's, for example)

I was thinking the "How many guys from ____ would start for _____," but that may be too subjective.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: frank uible on April 11, 2013, 02:06:09 PM
Someone who is terminally bored could provisionally define "typical" for each of the two purposes and then run the numbers, but your correspondent is not sufficiently bored - yet.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Bombers798891 on April 11, 2013, 04:19:28 PM
I'll run it, but I'm not defining "typical" conference. If Mount played a conference-winning team, it goes in the data, to be compared against that team's game that season against the last place team in the conference. If you want to argue the first/last place teams weren't the best/worst, that's your call. I'm not trying to make this subjective. Thus, Randolph-Macon may not have been the "top" team in the ODAC in 2008, but since they won the conference, made the NCAAs and played Mount and Catholic didn't...them's the breaks.

Independents and teams stripped of wins later (Ahem...Cortland) are excluded.

I'm going back 5 years. Nineteen games fit the criteria

Average margin of victory (Rounded)
Mount: 28 points
Conference Winners: 32

Median margin of victory
Mount: 30 points
Conference winners: 32 points

Games won by 30 or more
Mount: 10
Conference Winners: 10

Games won by 40 points or more
Mount: 7
Conference winners: 9

Games won by 50 points or more
Mount: 3
Conference winners: 4

Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Bombers798891 on April 11, 2013, 05:14:47 PM
I've always thought the nature of football is what makes the Mount dominance seem more dominant. It's not just the titles, it's the winning streaks—currently over 100 against non-Whitewater teams—, or the margins of victory, or going half a dozen games without allowing a single point. I mean, what's the swimming equivalent to scoring 356 straight points in football? Or the field hockey equivalent going an entire regular season without allowing a single point by your first-string defense?

But, maybe Mount's no more dominant than Kenyon swimming, and we just think they are because we follow football more closely than swimming, or wrestling, or field hockey. Maybe we care more because it is, if we're being honest, a more high-profile sport. I don't know.

Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Bishopleftiesdad on May 06, 2013, 04:17:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on April 03, 2013, 06:40:25 PM
Here's an angle on the talent gap that's frequently discussed, but hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.

Mount Union is in a football hotbed (Ohio), is taking advantage of the championships and exposure by recruiting Florida (Pierre, Dieuseul, Denton), California and Texas, and has a stable coaching staff and reputation so that HS coaches are comfortable sending their kids there.

But a major difference is that Mount Union is bringing in 200 players per year, or nearly 10 starting lineups, and is playing a JV program.

That's something that Wesley, St. John's, Linfield et. al. have in common, the competition within the program and the chance to let players play before they actually suit up in a varsity game.

Also 2-5 weeks of playoffs is significant extra practice for your top 58+
Does this mean that Mount brings in 200 freshmen every year, or their are 200 players on the team? Sorry but I am too lazy to look it up today.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Las Vegas Wildcards on May 06, 2013, 10:49:09 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on April 11, 2013, 05:14:47 PM
I've always thought the nature of football is what makes the Mount dominance seem more dominant. It's not just the titles, it's the winning streaks—currently over 100 against non-Whitewater teams—, or the margins of victory, or going half a dozen games without allowing a single point. I mean, what's the swimming equivalent to scoring 356 straight points in football? Or the field hockey equivalent going an entire regular season without allowing a single point by your first-string defense?

But, maybe Mount's no more dominant than Kenyon swimming, and we just think they are because we follow football more closely than swimming, or wrestling, or field hockey. Maybe we care more because it is, if we're being honest, a more high-profile sport. I don't know.

No, I think streaks in sports like football are more impressive than sports like swimming and wrestling for one clear reason. Scoring. In football, you either score offensively or defensively, or you don't. No staggered scoring system for second place and other places in swimming, or types of decisions in wrestling which factors in team results. The absolute nature of scoring for me is the more difficult aspect of football. You'll never see points awarded on the scoreboard for more offensive yards, for example.     
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 06, 2013, 11:47:59 PM
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on May 06, 2013, 04:17:35 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on April 03, 2013, 06:40:25 PM
Here's an angle on the talent gap that's frequently discussed, but hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.

Mount Union is in a football hotbed (Ohio), is taking advantage of the championships and exposure by recruiting Florida (Pierre, Dieuseul, Denton), California and Texas, and has a stable coaching staff and reputation so that HS coaches are comfortable sending their kids there.

But a major difference is that Mount Union is bringing in 200 players per year, or nearly 10 starting lineups, and is playing a JV program.

That's something that Wesley, St. John's, Linfield et. al. have in common, the competition within the program and the chance to let players play before they actually suit up in a varsity game.

Also 2-5 weeks of playoffs is significant extra practice for your top 58+
Does this mean that Mount brings in 200 freshmen every year, or their are 200 players on the team? Sorry but I am too lazy to look it up today.

Latter.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: Bishopleftiesdad on May 07, 2013, 02:09:03 PM
Thanks Pat.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: HScoach on May 08, 2013, 06:11:10 PM
The upper half of the OAC schools also bring in those kind of numbers too.   It's not just Mount that recruits depth.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: smedindy on May 19, 2013, 12:27:43 PM
Wabash has always had a JV program and it does help, especially when injuries hit and you have to dive deep into the depth chart. Hitting once a week against someone else can really prep you when you get 'the call'.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: pumkinattack on June 28, 2013, 08:58:21 AM
Interesting anecdote relating a KMack comment earlier.  I had an introductory call this week with a small bank CFO about ten minutes away from Salem.  I mentioned towards the end that I was hoping to have a reason to be up there in December (a guy can dream and I like to think Hobart's linear improvement will continue so I have no interest in hearing comments about how far off they are/were).  He told me that he knew about the Stagg Bowl and a number of local folks that have become MUC fans because they see them every year.  Speaks to the marketing potential of travelling and having a national audience.

Ironically, a few here have argued against me when I explain that Hobart has this great tradition and a national schedule/audience playin DI lacrosse (played 3 of the final four teams this year in DI, beat Nat'l finalist Syracuse in the Dome and was in a conference with Ohio State and Air Force amongst others) and that costs the football and other programs a certain amount of support in this contemporary interpretation by the courts of Title IX (fine with the original law, disagree with the current interpretation).  Others have asked why they stay in DI and are generally around .500, occasionally making the NCAA tournament vs. dropping down to D3 and killing it (again - they won the first 12 D3 titles), but the answer is the same reason why MUC can carry such concentration risk on their campus of male Football players.  It's a value add to do so and outweighs the negatives (and there are negatives to having 10% of your campus playing football no matter how much as I love the sport). 
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: mattvsmith on June 29, 2013, 12:06:11 AM
I don't think Hobart would kill it in D3 lacrosse any more. We lost two of my four years. Our star was starting to fade. And with the drastic rise in quality, too many schools have become much better. I reckon that if Hobart went back to D3, we would be constant contenders and occasional champions, but not the constant champs we used to be. I'd argue that the Hobart name had more cachet when we we D3 champs instead of D1 place holders.

However, beating SU this year was a delicious surprise.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: pumkinattack on June 29, 2013, 12:50:57 PM
I agree.  I'm utilizing an argument I've heard from others, both hobart alums and some other general lax fans, making the case for dropping back down.  Heard this multiple times recently, in fact. 

My point is that its completely blind to he benefit of being associated with Michigan and OSU and occasionally beating Syracuse, being on national television a couple of times a year (they've stopped even televising the D3 championship game a couple of years ago).  That's worth the associated costs to the school, the other athletics programs and everything else because there's no replicating that value.

While I'm envious of MUCs success and get that anti MUC feeling at times, I recognize that football is their path to institutional growth and success.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: mattvsmith on June 29, 2013, 09:18:24 PM
If the NCAA hasn't changed the rules that allowed D-3 Hobart to continue to play D1 SU and Cornell this wouldn't even be an issue. Bureaucrats. What I say?
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: pumkinattack on June 29, 2013, 10:19:40 PM
Sure, and moving up has come with costs (although while preserving those two century old rivalries in the birthplace of the game was critical, don't underestimate the fact ht hobart played basically a split DI/D3 schedule back then and really it was about competing with the very best while maintaining what little endowment we had at the time), but I've lived in DC, NYC and now Atlanta and have met people who know about Hobart because of their DI presence.  The marketing value is definitely worth the costs (and there's been a ton the past five or six years) and I wouldn't trade it for 6 more D3 titles.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: mattvsmith on June 30, 2013, 12:47:54 AM
At this point I'm more or less neutral about it. I preferred D3 with D1 team on the schedule, but now it's just water under the bridge nearly 20 years ago. It would be too disruptive to switch back, and there's no real benefit to switching back. Do people still discuss it? After the zhitstorm a few years ago when they brought it up, I thought it would never be discussed again.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: pumkinattack on June 30, 2013, 06:55:04 AM
Big deal because our conference blew up (bye, bye ECAC lacrosse) and our coach quit the same week basically.  I'm told by alums with more stroke that there's no shortage of awesome applicants including good current DI coaches, top DI assistants and many top ten-ish D3 coaches (if your a fan of some of the NESAC, CC teams or RIT you want Hobart to go he D3 route).  New conference will be announced next week, but not nearly as strong as the ECAC was or as prestigious as the patriot league is (who threw us out for being so successful in the early 2000s).

Sorry for he hijack of he thread.  My point was simply in defense of Mt Union over allocating resources to FB at he cost of other aspects of the school because when you can build a unique competitive advantage in anything the rewards often do outweigh the costs.
Title: Re: Is The Talent Gap in D3 Football Too Much Between Programs?
Post by: mattvsmith on June 30, 2013, 08:34:42 AM
Well I tell you what, if not for football I wouldn't know the difference between Mt Union and Mt Upton. So their investment in football must be worthwhile; it has single-handedly marketed the school to loads of potential students.
To tell the truth, I would never have heard of Hobart except my dad's boss's son was a star lacrosse player. He gave me a Hobart T-shirt when I was 11 or 12 and that's what made me want to go to Hobart.
Sports--the star sports--are a huge draw for young talent AND for alumni cash. Big win.