BB: Regionals (New York) Auburn NY '08, SUNY-Old Westbury '09, Cortland State '10, '11

Started by Ralph Turner, May 11, 2008, 11:48:23 PM

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scuba16

I also think not having a E-8 tournament actually hurts IC more than it helps. Yes they have a Pool b bid wrapped up with 3 weeks left to go but it helps them none when the regional comes because they haven't been through a win or go home scenario like every other team thats there!
Experience hepls alot in double elim tournaments and IC has none going into the regional every yr.! Couple that with the fact that Wolf their #2 didn't take the hill in the regional at all and you have a couple of good reasons why IC hasn't made too much noise in the postseason the past few years!
Still a very good program but when Val goes they need to get a very reputable guy in there or you might see IC baseball go down the tubes!
In sports it's not how you start, its how you finish!

John McGraw

Quote from: DTrain24 on May 18, 2008, 10:54:07 PM
In regards to Ithaca's tournament performance, I think the big issue with them is they didn't play a meaningful game for almost a month.  Their final conference weekend against Fisher was 3 weeks ago, and even though they had some non-league games in there against some good teams, they had the Pool B bid wrapped up, and since the E8 has no playoffs and they opt to not play in the ECAC, it seemed like they lost their edge.

It seems odd that the E8 doesn't have a tournament, as they are apparently the only baseball conference in any division of college baseball that doesn't have some sort of postseason.  And evidently the reason they don't is because Ithaca doesn't want one.  Take a look at RIT...their 1st weekend was rained out, they had a bye the next, and got swept 4 by Ithaca after a long layoff the following weekend.  After that they went on to win 11 out of the next 12 league games.  I'm sure they would have liked another shot at Ithaca in a conf. tourney...and it was a similar situation last year, with RIT finishing a game behind them in the standings after splitting 2 DH's on the final weekend.  You would think a playoff would be beneficial to the league, perhaps giving them an opportunity to get a B and a C since they have no automatic bid.

Should be interesting year next year, Ithaca and Fisher sustaining some key losses to graduation, RIT returning Dornes and Tosh and a good nucleus, and Stevens could be a factor, as well.  They had a brutal year but looks like they've had  some good teams in the past, and were mostly 1st year players and they faced a really tough non-conf. schedule (Eastern CT, Salisbury, Wooster, Kean, TCNJ, Hopkins) in addition to league play.  Saw them at Fisher and they played them tough, losing 3 1-run games.

Good luck to Cortland in Wisconsin...tough draw w/Trinity out of the gate!

I wouldn't necessarily say Ithaca lost its edge because they played hard throughout the tournament. And a postseason tournament doesn't benefit much because it throws out what happens in the regular season. And there's only five teams, does one not make the tournament? Or do you have a play-in game? The conference doesn't get an auto bid with five teams so why should the conference champion play in a tournament where it could lose and jeopardize it's NCAA chances. Plus, the fringe teams, if this is double elimination, will get two losses on to their record which may knock them out of the tournament discussion.

I believe earlier this season Bob had mentioned that he heard the SUNYAC was thinking about scrapping its conference tournament. Are we then going to yelp that Cortland is getting a free pass when they don't pound three teams into submission in the first week of May?

As for Ithaca losing its edge, I don't think that was the case. They played hard and were just caught by a good team that was hot in Ohio Wesleyan. I said it during the broadcast, OWU wasn't your typical 7-seed. I'd say more of a five or six though somehow Farmingdale State (no offense to the Rams mind you) was seeded higher. Sean Speed pitched a heck of a ball game and it should've ended up 5-1 but his defense let him down and he was clearly gassed in the ninth. Then OWU nearly beat a white-hit RPI team that was tearing the cover off the ball.

However, its' a disappointing end to the season I think and it's a shame that Raux, Sottung, Ferguson, Wolf and company couldn't get to the championship round. They played in the regional title round twice and finished third in 2006 behind ECSU and Cortland. There's no doubt that it will be a completely different look next season with Ahonen, Ash and Bryan Gardner leading the team. If Gardner can put together another season like this, I think he'll possibly be in line for a draft spot, mid-to-late 30s (round that is) I'm guessing.

On a side note, how did you just see Stevens playing at St. John Fisher when you have a Stevens e-mail account listed on your profile? Always remember to read the TOS :-)

DTrain24

Agreed, their senior class was legit and they were as good as anyone we saw all year, and Gardner should get a shot somewhere in the draft, hard throwing lefties with nasty offspeed stuff are always in demand...

In regards to the tournament, you make a good argument regarding throwing out the regular season.  But if you look at a similar league like the Capital (CAC), they don't have an automatic bid either but they do have a postseason tournament.  This year only Salisbury earned an NCAA bid, and they were the only one that deserved to go.  But in past years they've gotten in 2 and even 3 teams (York, Mary Washington) in as a result of one team winning the regular season and another winning the postseason tournament.  The E8 2nd and 3rd place teams would stack up favorably to those types of programs, so affording them the same opportunity might help the E8 get more than one team in.  The ECAC winner is not a lock to get a bid despite Fisher getting in last year via that route, and based on the 0 Pool C's out of NY this year, it might be worth looking into something along those lines.

Saw that with the SUNYAC moving away from the tournament as well, do you think it will help or hurt everyone else's chances of winning the league?   

BaseB13

John, I said all along IC got the shaft with the 2 seed.  Farmingdale plays in the Skyline, which after losing their top 3 teams to other conferneces, makes that conference horrible right now.  OWU should have been seeded 6th.  Farmingdale 7th.  This allowed RPI to save their #1 for Game 2 and forced IC to throw their #1 in Game 1.

A Post season tournament does not throw out what happens in the regular season.  The MLB World Series is decided by a 7 game series, does that throw out everything that happened in the regular season?  Granted the E8 only has 5 teams (Had Hartwick not dropped its program the E8 would be one team away from an automatic bid)  but they could still do a tournament of the top 4 teams.  This would crown a conference champion via tournament style play the same way Regionals and Appleton are decided.  I don't quite follow the logic you use to defend against not having a tournament.  The regular season winner would not be risking their NCAA tournament hopes by participating in the confernce tournament.  There is no rule that a Pool B bid has to be granted to an E8 team so its quite possible that some years (Especially if what some of you IC people say about the returning squad of IC) an E8 team will not be good enough to earn a Pool B bid.  Many conferences that do not receive an automatic bid have conference tournaments.  If anything a conference tournament could help Ithaca in the sense that they could play additional games, up to 5 more in a 4 team double elimination tournament.  At the end of the day D3 sports is about competing and playing, I don't think any student-athlete would be disappointed in getting to have more games in their career.  The only defense I see in not having a conference tournament in the E8 is that because no bid is at stake its a waste of time.  Not sure if I agree with that or not.

Although I do not agree with the SUNYAC elimintating its conference tournament (I can see Cortland pushing for this), no one would state Cortland was receiving a free pass because if they received the Pool A bid it would be because they had won the conference, albeit via a regular season championship.  This move hurts everyone but Cortland.  Ithaca does not need to win the E8 to earn its bid.  Infact I'd go as far as saying had RIT won all of its E8 games except for splitting 4 games with IC, and was crowned co-conference champion, IC would have still received the bid.  I might even be tempted to say that had RIT taken 3 of 4 from IC, and both teams won the rest of their E8 games, IC still would have received a bid. 





scuba16

I don't feel for IC in the least bit!
Shane Wolf was IC's #2 and some would argue their #1 and didn't pitch in the regional? Can someone explain this?
A senior, a big Lefty with good stuff and didn't throw 1 pitch!
Something is wrong with this picture!
I think wolf should have started the game vs OW. Good teams have trouble with lefties!
Most certainly he should have started game 2 or game 3. You can't save anyone in that losers bracket situation.
Looks like a total debacle for IC on paper!
In sports it's not how you start, its how you finish!

John McGraw

Quote from: scuba16 on May 19, 2008, 01:38:23 PM
I don't feel for IC in the least bit!
Shane Wolf was IC's #2 and some would argue their #1 and didn't pitch in the regional? Can someone explain this?
A senior, a big Lefty with good stuff and didn't throw 1 pitch!
Something is wrong with this picture!
I think wolf should have started the game vs OW. Good teams have trouble with lefties!
Most certainly he should have started game 2 or game 3. You can't save anyone in that losers bracket situation.
Looks like a total debacle for IC on paper!

I disagree that Wolf should have pitched against Ohio Wesleyan. Sottung has been Ithaca's number one for the last few years and he's the program's all-time wins and strikeouts leader. There's no reason not to throw him against a solid OWU team in the first game. Aside from one bad inning, I thought he had a solid performance. The big inning, combined with Ithaca's lack of offense was the difference.

And I have no problem either with Brown pitching against Farmingdale. If you use Wolf against them, he's probably going the distance and he'll be out for the rest of the tournament in games where he could be used like against Montclair, Cortland, RPI, etc etc. It was a slight gamble though Brown mowed through Farmingdale like nothing.

I'm a little surprised Wolf didn't pitch against Montclair. It was a calculated risk. If Ithaca wins that game, they go on to play Eastern and Wolf pitches that game. Obviously Wolf shut down Montclair earlier in the week but who's to say what happens in the re-match in the playoffs. Starting Fishback backfired but Ithaca still had a chance to win the game. I'd say the difference in the Montclair game was Ithaca's offensive lull against a poor Montclair pitching staff. And Gardner is usually lights out from the bullpen, he had a rare lapse and it came with the season on the line.

Certainly this wasn't a total debacle. In the end, the best team won the regional, Cortland State. Ithaca at some point would have run out of pitching. Seven guys ate up all of their innings this year with limited appearances from Sapp and Trevor Wolf.

After thinking about things, I'm sure Ithaca will be alright. Coach Val always find a way to keep a winner on the field no matter who graduates. Some teams have been more talented than others but they always find a way to win.

Besides, you're just bashing to bash since it's an IC-Cortland thing. And that's alright because we both know where the Cortaca Jug is right now  :)

JQV

Quote from: John McGraw on May 19, 2008, 02:58:14 PMBesides, you're just bashing to bash since it's an IC-Cortland thing. And that's alright because we both know where the Cortaca Jug is right now  :)

+k to John for reminding us what matters. 

(through gritted teeth) congrats to Cortland, sometimes the hardest titles to win are the ones that appear to be foregone conclusions.  They could have booked those hotel rooms in Appleton months ago.

Bob Maxwell

Is anyone going to Appleton?

Pat Coleman

Quote from: BaseB13 on May 19, 2008, 12:28:50 PM
If anything a conference tournament could help Ithaca in the sense that they could play additional games, up to 5 more in a 4 team double elimination tournament. 

Or a team on the bubble could lose two in a double-elimination tournament and fall out of the tournament.

For those suggesting the E8 is alone on this, the SCIAC and NWC also do not have conference tournaments.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

John McGraw

Quote from: Bob Maxwell on May 19, 2008, 04:00:15 PM
Is anyone going to Appleton?

I'll make it there eventually. It'd be easier if it wasn't Memorial Day weekend. Maybe next year.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 19, 2008, 04:01:42 PM
Quote from: BaseB13 on May 19, 2008, 12:28:50 PM
If anything a conference tournament could help Ithaca in the sense that they could play additional games, up to 5 more in a 4 team double elimination tournament. 

Or a team on the bubble could lose two in a double-elimination tournament and fall out of the tournament.

For those suggesting the E8 is alone on this, the SCIAC and NWC also do not have conference tournaments.
Nor does the Michigan IAA.  Note that two of those three conferences earned Pool C bids.

pudge27

Besides, you're just bashing to bash since it's an IC-Cortland thing. And that's alright because we both know where the Cortaca Jug is right now  :)
[/quote]

I know that you're still probably catching up on your sleep from the tourney, John, but isn't this a reach?  At least on the BB board? Why don't you just taunt us with the softball score?  We would of course have to bring up Lacrosse, and no one really wants that, right?

I think that if Scuba was looking to IC bash, he would have led off with.......Just kidding.  Not even necessary this year.  Tough call to make on the rotation either way, but the odds of coming out of the first day loser's bracket to win the whole thing is such a longshot either way.  Probably wouldn't have made a difference in the end.   

Baseball13 says..."Although I do not agree with the SUNYAC elimintating its conference tournament (I can see Cortland pushing for this)".  I've got to call out this comment.  Cortland's won the conference title 16 out of the last 18 years.  There doing just fine with a conference tournament and I don't see why they would need to push for that at all.  If anything, it hurts the conference.  Unless something changes drastically, the conference tourney is the best chance for the SUNYAC to get 2 teams in a Regional. 


Should be a great world series.  Top 3 are in and 6 teams in out of the top 11.  Looks like the pollsters knew what they were doing this year. 

BaseB13

My main rationale for the E8 to play a conference tournament is just to play more games and it gives each team tournament experience.  However, this would prevent some teams from playing in the ECAC's.  But it would also guarantee 4 of the teams the ability to play up to 45 games prior to NCAA's instead of 40.  As a player, I want to play as much as possible so I would be happy with that.  Again, it'd basically be a meaningless tournament but the more games the merrier. 

Pudge I was in no way knocking Cortland by saying that.  But the bottom line is, a conference tournament can only hurt Cortland at this stage of the game (See 2004 when a conference tournament did hurt Cortland).  Cortland is not going to have any problem winning the regular season title year after year.  However, it's always possible that a team gets hot in the confernce tournament and knocks off the 1 seed.  The chances of this happening are far greater than having a team knock off Cortland in the regular season for the top spot.  Therfore it is my opinion that the elimination of the conference tournament is most beneficial to Cortland.  I cannot imagine that teams like Plattsburgh and Oneonta are too thrilled about this (maybe they are it's simply speculation on my part).  And as for the bottom teams in the SUNYAC, they have lost just about anything to possibly play for.  Atleast before those teams could hope to sneak in to the 4 slot and make some noise.  Now their post season chances are non existent.  I guess I feel if Regionals are decided by a double elimintation tournament, and Appleton is decided by a double elimination tournament, it makes sense to determine the conference champion by this way as well.  Plus it makes things exciting.  3 weeks in to the season Cortland will have the SUNYAC championship locked up and we'll all be on the E8 and LL boards from now on. 

John McGraw

While Cortland did lose the '04 SUNYAC tournament, they still made the regionals as an at-large selection. It was a little bit of a down year and the best team in the region, Brockport State, went to the World Series.

BoomerIL

Sorry for sticking my two cents in here, but doesn't anyone have any contact with any of the players on IC to find out what really was the reason for not starting, or even having Wolf pitch?  Maybe there were other factors that kept him off of the mound/out of the rotation.  It's just my thoughts on the subject. 
"You observe alot by watching"  -  Yogi Berra