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Started by Pat Coleman, September 22, 2005, 03:16:50 PM

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Ralph Turner

http://www.ascsports.org/news/2009/7/28/asc_football_preseason09.aspx]HSU QB Justin Feaster was pre-season player of the year in the ASC.

He left the Linfield game with an injury, played sparingly in the Louisiana College game and is out for the season.

HSU also lost starting WR ZaVious Robbins, National Football Foundation Campbell Trophy nominee, in the Linfield game.

Looking at HSU in summer 2009, this was a team that lost in the last minute, twice, to UMHB in the 2008 season.

It made perfect sense to me.

golden_dome

Quote from: DutchFan2004 on October 04, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
You raise a great point Keith.  I do have a question about this though.  Not knowing and not following the other regions like you gurus in the know.  Does Hardin-Simmons being ranked so high for preseason really rate being a quality win with the record they now have?  At 1-4 with only a win over a 2-3 team can you call that a quality win this year.  I am not saying that HS is a slouch but when you talk of quality wins would a win over HS this year be a quality win.  I don't know the particulars on why HS is not playing up to the way they were expected to play.  Just curious on why or how you look at things.  To me a win against a quality program is not always a quality win as the program can have a down or rebuilding year.  Such as the Dutch experienced last year.  Just like to hear what your thoughts are. 

Hardin-Simmons has played one of the toughest schedules in the country and there are several top 25 teams who might have fared similiarly with an early stretch like that. HSU trailed #7 Linfield 20-14 at the half, and #3 UMHB 13-0 at the half. They lost in the last minute to Mississippi College (technically #30). HSU already plays in one of the nation's toughest conferences (the ASC was picked #3 in the kickoff preview) and still schedules two quality nonconference opponents.

I hope record isn't the only factor when we determine if a win is quality or not, there are plenty of other factors to consider.

But Ralph was correct, they have sustained several injuries including four guys who were legitimate all-america candidates. I had the opportunity to see them two weeks ago and they aren't the top 5 team they were in the preseason, but they were still talented. There are several top 25 teams who have won games over lesser competition who would not want to play HSU or their schedule.

K-Mack

Quote from: Chris Brooks on October 05, 2009, 12:02:50 AM
Quote from: DutchFan2004 on October 04, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
You raise a great point Keith.  I do have a question about this though.  Not knowing and not following the other regions like you gurus in the know.  Does Hardin-Simmons being ranked so high for preseason really rate being a quality win with the record they now have?  At 1-4 with only a win over a 2-3 team can you call that a quality win this year.  I am not saying that HS is a slouch but when you talk of quality wins would a win over HS this year be a quality win.  I don't know the particulars on why HS is not playing up to the way they were expected to play.  Just curious on why or how you look at things.  To me a win against a quality program is not always a quality win as the program can have a down or rebuilding year.  Such as the Dutch experienced last year.  Just like to hear what your thoughts are. 

Hardin-Simmons has played one of the toughest schedules in the country and there are several top 25 teams who might have fared similiarly with an early stretch like that. HSU trailed #7 Linfield 20-14 at the half, and #3 UMHB 13-0 at the half. They lost in the last minute to Mississippi College (technically #30). HSU already plays in one of the nation's toughest conferences (the ASC was picked #3 in the kickoff preview) and still schedules two quality nonconference opponents.

I hope record isn't the only factor when we determine if a win is quality or not, there are plenty of other factors to consider.

But Ralph was correct, they have sustained several injuries including four guys who were legitimate all-america candidates. I had the opportunity to see them two weeks ago and they aren't the top 5 team they were in the preseason, but they were still talented. There are several top 25 teams who have won games over lesser competition who would not want to play HSU or their schedule.

To answer the original question, briefly (I have to hit the road and record the podcast with Pat; we did it way late this week, busy Sundays on the homefronts) ... I think that's why you have to re-evaluate constantly. Because, let's say in the case of Linfield, beating Hardin-Simmons a week after they beat Whitworth looks like a strong victory. But now at 1-4, it doesn't look quite a powerful.

HSU might not be the best example because we knew from Day 1 their first five games would be killer ... but I think you have to think outside the box of "a loss equals a couple spots down in the standings" and "undefeated teams must automatically be highly ranked." At some point, of course, you have to value wins because that's what we play for, but Hardin-Simmons' first five opponents (or lets say two of Bethel's or three of ONU's) are going to be better than all 10 of some of the undefeated teams that are ranked.

And then there's the whole comparable teams from the same conference being miles apart in votes argument ... for another time though.

(more cc: top 25 thread to come I guess)
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

HSC85

Great podcast today Pat and Keith.  I think that you put into perspective that the Top 25 poll is not as easy as putting 25 teams on a list.  Bethel is a great example of a team that is 5 points away from being in the top 5.  It is great that they are not penalized for close losses to top 10 teams. 

Ralph Turner

Catching up on the ATN from two weeks ago...  Ten most changed conferences.

The first season of D3football.com caught the ASC in the midst of expansion.

TLU was re-classifying from D-II and added football in 1998, after discontinuing it in 1987.

The Bulldogs went 2-1 in their first three non- conference games that season before going 1-6 in the ASC.

http://www.tlu.edu/i/athletics/football/2009/2009_football_mg.pdf

Langston OK                            17 -43 L
McPherson KS                          50-34 W
Southwestern Assemblies        74-20 W

In 1999, TLU went 1-2 in the non-conference...

7 Langston (Okla.) 31
13 McPherson (Kan.) 34
53 SW Assm. of God 16

1999 was the first season for UMHB.

Louisiana College and ETBU begin play in 2000.

This was a big improvement over the early portion of the 1990's decade when the (NAIA) Texas Intercollegiate AA consisted of 6 football playing institutions, and we played double round robin to get a 10 game schedule.

K-Mack

This dude is dern near my idol:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/sports/ncaafootball/17cheer.html

Ralph, good insights. I looked at the ASC for the list, but except for the loss of Austin, it's been pretty much static for the D3 years. As you noted, all the major changes took place by 2000.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

frank uible

I bet that there are at least a few NFL Directors of Player Personnel or other NFL scouts of college player personnel, who have achieved this accomplishment, but of course  they have done it as a part of their jobs with the expenses having been absorbed by their employers.

Pat Coleman

I've seen 119 Division III teams played. Only 119 to go.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

doolittledog

Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 12:39:03 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams played. Only 119 to go.

Games at 119 D3 schools?  Or 119 teams total?

Pat Coleman

I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Ralph Turner

#1750
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Yeah, and Psalms 119 is halfway thru the Bible.  [EDIT: You will recall that the Protestant Bible has 66 books in the Old and New Testament, but Pat went to Catholic, so it may not be as eery.]

This is getting eery!   ;)




In which conferences have you seen all of the teams?  I am sure that Gallaudet covers the ECFC.

Is there a conference, at least one of whose members, that you have not seen yet?

redswarm81

#1751
So I finally managed to listen to the ATN podcast, and it was enlightening/confusing, as I might have expected any discussion of top 25 poll voting to be.

Keith, you were obviously trapped in a cave or a dungeon somewhere.   But you did a good job of concealing your efforts to free yourself from whatever restraints kept you trapped in there.  :D

I especially enjoyed the effort to recite from memory the Wesley-Delaware Valley-Kean-Cortland State transitive chain of losses.  Well done!

Ultimately, the term "leap of faith" was well used (if you'll forgive my use of the passive voice).


Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 07, 2009, 06:25:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Yeah, and Psalms 119 is halfway thru the Bible.

This is getting eery!   ;)


Yeah, and Psalms 38:7 eerily describes half the posters of messages on d3football.com.   :o
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

HSCTiger74

Quote from: redswarm81 on October 07, 2009, 06:49:42 PM
So I finally managed to listen to the ATN podcast, and it was enlightening/confusing, as I might have expected any discussion of top 25 poll voting to be.

Keith, you were obviously trapped in a cave or a dungeon somewhere.   But you did a good job of concealing your efforts to free yourself from whatever restraints kept you trapped in there.  :D

I especially enjoyed the effort to recite from memory the Wesley-Delaware Valley-Kean-Cortland State transitive chain of losses.  Well done!

Ultimately, the term "leap of faith" was well used (if you'll forgive my use of the passive voice).


Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 07, 2009, 06:25:49 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 05:38:50 PM
I've seen 119 Division III teams play at 66 schools' stadiums.
Yeah, and Psalms 119 is halfway thru the Bible.

This is getting eery!   ;)


Yeah, and Psalms 38:7 eerily describes half the posters of messages on d3football.com.   :o

I would have thought that it was 38:11
TANSTAAFL

Pat Coleman

Keith was appearing solely by phone this week.

I haven't seen any MWC or MIAA schools.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2009, 10:44:20 PM
Keith was appearing solely by phone this week.

I haven't seen any MWC or MIAA schools.
Minnesota is a lot closer to the MWC and the MIAA than Connecticut or northern Virginia.   ;)