MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by Board Mod, February 28, 2005, 11:18:51 AM

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Baldini

Quote from: WUPHF on February 13, 2020, 09:07:55 PM
Also, St. Norbert > Oshkosh > North Central.

This can be a madding game we can play.

North Central X2 > Elmhurst > St. Norbert > Oshkosh, but Oshkosh > North Central

Such the conundrum.

WUPHF

+1 It is so true, I am just poking the Bear.

Milliin > Washington University > Augustana-IWU-Chicago-Coe-Rhodes
Augustana-IWU-Chicago-Coe-Rhodes  > Millikin

kiko

Quote from: WUPHF on February 13, 2020, 10:00:42 PM
+1 It is so true, I am just poking the Bear.

Milliin > Washington University > Augustana-IWU-Chicago-Coe-Rhodes
Augustana-IWU-Chicago-Coe-Rhodes  > Millikin

Quite literally, it would seem...   ;D

WUPHF


AndOne

Quote from: kiko on February 13, 2020, 09:21:51 PM
Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 06:59:28 PM
Quote from: bbfan44 on February 13, 2020, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 13, 2020, 03:15:07 PM
Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 12, 2020, 04:32:10 PM
1. Platteville - 0.842 W% - 0.566 SOS
2. Wash U - 0.800 - 0.565
3. Benedictine - 0.857 - 0.493
4. SNC - 0.857 - 0.536
5. Eau Claire - 0.714 - 0.580
6. NCC - 0.810 - 0.523
7. Augustana - 0.727 - 0.578
8. Elmhurst - 0.818 - 0.526


Put Benedictine and St. Norbs in the CCIW and see where they'd rank. 👇

The same Benedictine club that beat your Cardinals in the airplane hangar earlier this season?  ;)

Well that was a wide open door...

Exactly. And I anticipated that someone would likely make such a remark.
BUT, that BU beat NCC isn't the point here. The point is that although both BU and SNC are good enough where they would certainly win some CCIW games, no way would they win nearly as many playing in the CCIW regularly as they do in their current respective conferences which are not nearly as strong top to bottom as the CCIW. So BU beats NCC (or substitute any other CCIW team), but they're not going to beat a majority of the other top conference teams. They (and SNC) are not going to also beat Augie, Elmhurst, IWU, Wheaton, Carthage and Carroll. A couple maybe, but not a majority like they do in their current conferences. Both BU and SNC are likely no better than 5th in a the CCIW. They would certainly pile up more losses than they do playing against, and dominating, their current conference opponents, and thus their regional rankings would correspondingly be lower.

This is an embarrassingly weak argument.

Well, I'm sorry about your embarrassment.
Perhaps accepting the obvious fact that neither BU nor SNC would dominate in the CCIW the way they usually do in their current respective conferences would help?  ;)

Gregory Sager

Actually, Mark, in part I'm trying to figure out why you're going out of your way to crap on a Benedictine team that: a) improves NCC's SoS; and b) gives NCC another possible RRO at season's end.

It seems a tad counterproductive to me.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

kiko

Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 10:36:18 PM
Quote from: kiko on February 13, 2020, 09:21:51 PM
Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 06:59:28 PM
Quote from: bbfan44 on February 13, 2020, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 13, 2020, 03:15:07 PM
Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 12, 2020, 04:32:10 PM
1. Platteville - 0.842 W% - 0.566 SOS
2. Wash U - 0.800 - 0.565
3. Benedictine - 0.857 - 0.493
4. SNC - 0.857 - 0.536
5. Eau Claire - 0.714 - 0.580
6. NCC - 0.810 - 0.523
7. Augustana - 0.727 - 0.578
8. Elmhurst - 0.818 - 0.526


Put Benedictine and St. Norbs in the CCIW and see where they'd rank. 👇

The same Benedictine club that beat your Cardinals in the airplane hangar earlier this season?  ;)

Well that was a wide open door...

Exactly. And I anticipated that someone would likely make such a remark.
BUT, that BU beat NCC isn't the point here. The point is that although both BU and SNC are good enough where they would certainly win some CCIW games, no way would they win nearly as many playing in the CCIW regularly as they do in their current respective conferences which are not nearly as strong top to bottom as the CCIW. So BU beats NCC (or substitute any other CCIW team), but they're not going to beat a majority of the other top conference teams. They (and SNC) are not going to also beat Augie, Elmhurst, IWU, Wheaton, Carthage and Carroll. A couple maybe, but not a majority like they do in their current conferences. Both BU and SNC are likely no better than 5th in a the CCIW. They would certainly pile up more losses than they do playing against, and dominating, their current conference opponents, and thus their regional rankings would correspondingly be lower.

This is an embarrassingly weak argument.

Well, I'm sorry about your embarrassment.
Perhaps accepting the obvious fact that neither BU nor SNC would dominate in the CCIW the way they usually do in their current respective conferences would help?  ;)

You seem confused.  This...

Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 10:36:18 PM
Perhaps accepting the obvious fact that neither BU nor SNC would dominate in the CCIW the way they usually do in their current respective conferences would help?  ;)

... is an opinion, and not a fact.

This...

https://d3hoops.com/seasons/men/2019-20/contrib/201911268xu660

...is a fact.

AndOne

Yep, and its also a fact that Mike Boatright is no longer playing for BU, and Matt Helwig hadn't yet started playing for NC. And I'm sure you saw the word "upset" in the story line.  :)

AndOne

All I'm saying is that it seems like teams like BU and SNC often get highly ranked not due to the fact that they are truly superior teams, but rather because they are often easily able to build up a high number of wins/winning percentage due to the fact that so many of the other teams in their conferences are so bad. And that if they played in a tougher conference such as the CCIW they would likely not have such sterling records and correspondingly high regional rankings. You know that almost every year you hear how the CCIW teams are going to beat up on each other during the season and possibly cost some a chance at the national tournament. You don't hear that about teams who are almost guaranteed high rankings because they face such little competition within their conference(s).     
A large percentage of CCIW games are absolute wars from start to finish. In inferior conferences dominated by one or two teams, such is often not the case.

Titan Q

Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 11:48:08 PM
All I'm saying is that it seems like teams like BU and SNC often get highly ranked not due to the fact that they are truly superior teams, but rather because they are often easily able to build up a high number of wins/winning percentage due to the fact that so many of the other teams in their conferences are so bad. And that if they played in a tougher conference such as the CCIW they would likely not have such sterling records and correspondingly high regional rankings. You know that almost every year you hear how the CCIW teams are going to beat up on each other during the season and possibly cost some a chance at the national tournament. You don't hear that about teams who are almost guaranteed high rankings because they face such little competition within their conference(s).     
A large percentage of CCIW games are absolute wars from start to finish. In inferior conferences dominated by one or two teams, such is often not the case.

I agree with your overall premise -- that CCIW NCAA tournament contenders face a much, much more difficult conference slate than Benedictine and St. Norbert do. I don't think anyone would disagree with this.  That's pretty much a fact - Massey Ratings would prove that, for example.

But like others here, the problem I have with the road you are going down is that Benedictine beat North Central (the probable CCIW champ) at North Central. It seems unfair to me to suggest BU would not be sitting at, say, 1st or 2nd in the CCIW right now.

As far as this season goes, I think you lost the ability to make these kind of statements regarding Benedictine, credibly, the moment this game ended - https://d3hoops.com/seasons/men/2019-20/contrib/201911268xu660.


Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


Maybe it's not the case every year, but this year it seems like a BenU or SNC resume in the CCIW would look like Augie or Elmhurst: a few less wins and a higher SOS.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

CCIW ALUM



Quote from AndOne, All I'm saying is that it seems like teams like BU and SNC often get highly ranked not due to the fact that they are truly superior teams, but rather because they are often easily able to build up a high number of wins/winning percentage due to the fact that so many of the other teams in their conferences are so bad. And that if they played in a tougher conference such as the CCIW they would likely not have such sterling records and correspondingly high regional rankings. You know that almost every year you hear how the CCIW teams are going to beat up on each other during the season and possibly cost some a chance at the national tournament. You don't hear that about teams who are almost guaranteed high rankings because they face such little competition within their conference(s).     
A large percentage of CCIW games are absolute wars from start to finish. In inferior conferences dominated by one or two teams, such is often not the case.

Granted the NACC & MWC from top to bottom does not compare to the CCIW. The Bottom line is this, you have the play the games on the schedule (conference)! Benedictine's Non Conference schedule year in and year out which is only 5 games is as strong as anyone else. Most years its 5 CCIW opponents, years were a trip are involved a good tournament with good teams hoping that it does not hurt the SOS. Every year it is the same thing from AndOne comments about others schools because of rankings or because of the Conferences the schools play in. Want to solve the whole problem that has been an issue for years, the powers of the CCIW should take BU in as it's 10th team, making the CCIW even stronger, and stop all this nonsense! Last point, with regards to Mike Boatright and Matt Helwig playing or not playing in the game played this year, things happen for a reason that is why we play the game. both BU & NCC have made adjustments since that game and neither school has missed a beat. On that night Boatright contributed to a win, and Helwig was still in the thought process of trying to break the lineup to get some minutes. AndOne, enjoy the remaining games left in the season and hoping all schools can finish out  strong and make their cases to the NCAA committees for what happens on the Basketball floor not by someone's opinion!  THE END!

sncdangler

Quote from: AndOne on February 13, 2020, 11:48:08 PM
All I'm saying is that it seems like teams like BU and SNC often get highly ranked not due to the fact that they are truly superior teams, but rather because they are often easily able to build up a high number of wins/winning percentage due to the fact that so many of the other teams in their conferences are so bad. And that if they played in a tougher conference such as the CCIW they would likely not have such sterling records and correspondingly high regional rankings. You know that almost every year you hear how the CCIW teams are going to beat up on each other during the season and possibly cost some a chance at the national tournament. You don't hear that about teams who are almost guaranteed high rankings because they face such little competition within their conference(s).     
A large percentage of CCIW games are absolute wars from start to finish. In inferior conferences dominated by one or two teams, such is often not the case.

That's not what you said...you said BU and SNC wouldn't beat 2/3 of the CCIW, including Carroll (which SNC beat 11 straight times right up until Carroll left the MWC). You can't say with any certainty that BU and SNC would be CCIW roadkill any more than I can say with certainty that BU and SNC would be contenders. You don't know, I don't know, and nobody else does either.

BU and SNC scheduled appropriately outside of their conferences this year (and in past years) to make up for their required conference games. The MWC as a whole also performed much better than in recent years outside the conference, which has also helped SNC's number.

WUPHF

This is not my fight, but it is interesting.

The Matt Snyder custom match-up has North Central with a 1-point win at home and a 5-point loss on the road at St. Norbert.  North Central is a 1-point win on the road and a 9-point win at home against Benedictine.


Gregory Sager

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on February 14, 2020, 09:16:49 AM

Maybe it's not the case every year, but this year it seems like a BenU or SNC resume in the CCIW would look like Augie or Elmhurst: a few less wins and a higher SOS.

This.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell