FB: Midwest Conference

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Gaegerlaw75

A Note from a Carroll Perspective,

This week's game needs little recap.  Carroll remained dominant in all three phases and Ripon continued to look lost (To be honest, there is absolutely no love lost between myself and Ripon so I am not looking to fluff them up... they suck and I don't mind it at all). 

I instead would rather discuss the lack of national recognition for the Pioneers/Midwest Conference.  While I think that the blame for this can be spread around to several different recipients, I think that absolutely zero recognition is ridiculous. 

First, I am aware that the Conference is not an A-1 top tier league.  In fact, Carroll is so aware that they have decided to leave (and will probably feel the pain of that for some time while they try to ramp up to compete with the big boys).  That said, this conference is not a total dog either.  Schools like SNC and Monmouth have great traditions of winning with excellent student athletes on their roster.  Furthermore, the recent resurgence of the programs at IC and LFC (this year has been a disappointment I know, but that program is headed in the right direction for the long team after their amazing run to a league title last year) should get a bit more credit than it does.  Nobody in the world thinks that this Conference's champion is ready to hang with the likes of Whitewater and Mt. Union, but the fact that there is absolutely zero credit given I feel is a bit outrageous. This is an automatic-bid conference who sends a winner to the NCAA tournament.  That isn't just a throw-away.   I am in agreement that non-conference scheduling could be better, but its not the easiest thing in the world to schedule a bunch of top-tier talent to start a season (especially if your program is a bit of a nation unknown itself). 

Which brings me to my second gripe with Carroll receiving no love nationally (I would like to state for the record that I am not even sure if they are a top 25 team, but I do think that they should have at least one "others receiving votes" by now).  One of my major problems with the lack of recognition is not just because they are 7-0, but because of the dominant numbers they are putting up.  1st, Carroll is amongst the tops in Div. III in total defense and points allowed.  It has been a dominant season on the defensive side of the ball and their numbers put them at the top of the nation.  2nd, the same can be said for the seasons that LaMont and Burlingame are putting up.  Each of these guys are putting up numbers that compete league wide on a week-in and week-out basis.  It is a shame that it is being ignored.  Finally, the special teams scoring this season has been pretty amazing.  Returns for touchdowns have been abundant, but it goes by the wayside.  All-in-all, I think that these numbers being kicked to the curb is an injustice and should at least be worthy of  "others receiving votes" recognition.   

Next week we are off on an overnight road trip and the toughest test remaining on the schedule.  A win all but solidifies their spot in the title game... but "perfect regular season" does have such a nice ring to it.  Until next week...

CaliRamRL6

Quote from: scottie on October 25, 2014, 06:20:36 PM
The Good Guys win today.....the REAL Good Guys.  38-21.
well played

grboob

So Monmouth beat Hope (at home) and Central (Ia) on the road but lost to IC and Carroll (on the road)  What is that worth?

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Gaegerlaw75 on October 27, 2014, 03:14:35 PM
First, I am aware that the Conference is not an A-1 top tier league.  In fact, Carroll is so aware that they have decided to leave (and will probably feel the pain of that for some time while they try to ramp up to compete with the big boys).  That said, this conference is not a total dog either.  Schools like SNC and Monmouth have great traditions of winning with excellent student athletes on their roster.  Furthermore, the recent resurgence of the programs at IC and LFC (this year has been a disappointment I know, but that program is headed in the right direction for the long team after their amazing run to a league title last year) should get a bit more credit than it does.  Nobody in the world thinks that this Conference's champion is ready to hang with the likes of Whitewater and Mt. Union, but the fact that there is absolutely zero credit given I feel is a bit outrageous. This is an automatic-bid conference who sends a winner to the NCAA tournament.  That isn't just a throw-away.   I am in agreement that non-conference scheduling could be better, but its not the easiest thing in the world to schedule a bunch of top-tier talent to start a season (especially if your program is a bit of a nation unknown itself). 

No, this is true (although Whitewater will always take Carroll's call, voters don't ask Carroll to schedule the No. 1 team in the country in order to get votes). However, there is a lot of room between scheduling Benedictine and Lakeland (a combined 7-7 and in a league that has been ranked even lower than the MWC every time we have ranked conferences since the NACC's inception) and scheduling a couple of more representative Division III programs. When a date became open for Carroll, they went out and added Benedictine, which is the sometime champion of the NACC, which averages the third-worst conference in D-III.

Quote from: Gaegerlaw75 on October 27, 2014, 03:14:35 PM
Which brings me to my second gripe with Carroll receiving no love nationally (I would like to state for the record that I am not even sure if they are a top 25 team, but I do think that they should have at least one "others receiving votes" by now).  One of my major problems with the lack of recognition is not just because they are 7-0, but because of the dominant numbers they are putting up.  1st, Carroll is amongst the tops in Div. III in total defense and points allowed.  It has been a dominant season on the defensive side of the ball and their numbers put them at the top of the nation.  2nd, the same can be said for the seasons that LaMont and Burlingame are putting up.  Each of these guys are putting up numbers that compete league wide on a week-in and week-out basis.  It is a shame that it is being ignored.  Finally, the special teams scoring this season has been pretty amazing.  Returns for touchdowns have been abundant, but it goes by the wayside.  All-in-all, I think that these numbers being kicked to the curb is an injustice and should at least be worthy of  "others receiving votes" recognition.   

I mean, these things are nice but they are also products of playing this schedule. There are also a LOT of great performances by quarterbacks and running backs, week in and week out, in Division III. We did, however, recognize Michael Sahli on our Team of the Week two weeks ago. http://www.d3football.com/awards/tow/2014/week6

Individual stats do not result in team rankings. It's just not the way football works.

Generally if you have zero national or regional track record, voters like to wait until you've played someone. Happened the same way when it was St. Norbert. Don't even have to necessarily beat that quality team, but have to be competitive. If Texas Lutheran, for example, had been competitive vs. UMHB, they almost certainly would have moved up and gotten into our Top 25 this week.

There are 244 teams in Division III: that's one ranking slot for every 9.8 teams. In Division I FBS (I-A) there is one slot for every 5.1 teams. It is almost literally twice as hard to get into our poll. Voters are just waiting for evidence -- and don't think beating Macalester this week will do it either, since Mac beat the last-place team in the MIAC and lost to the second-to-last place team. The fact that MAC is 5-0 vs. MWC opponents says a lot about the league to voters and is a strong reminder of the gap between the two.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

sncdangler

Quote from: Gaegerlaw75 on October 27, 2014, 03:14:35 PM
A Note from a Carroll Perspective,

This week's game needs little recap.  Carroll remained dominant in all three phases and Ripon continued to look lost (To be honest, there is absolutely no love lost between myself and Ripon so I am not looking to fluff them up... they suck and I don't mind it at all). 

I instead would rather discuss the lack of national recognition for the Pioneers/Midwest Conference.  While I think that the blame for this can be spread around to several different recipients, I think that absolutely zero recognition is ridiculous. 

First, I am aware that the Conference is not an A-1 top tier league.  In fact, Carroll is so aware that they have decided to leave (and will probably feel the pain of that for some time while they try to ramp up to compete with the big boys).  That said, this conference is not a total dog either.  Schools like SNC and Monmouth have great traditions of winning with excellent student athletes on their roster.  Furthermore, the recent resurgence of the programs at IC and LFC (this year has been a disappointment I know, but that program is headed in the right direction for the long team after their amazing run to a league title last year) should get a bit more credit than it does.  Nobody in the world thinks that this Conference's champion is ready to hang with the likes of Whitewater and Mt. Union, but the fact that there is absolutely zero credit given I feel is a bit outrageous. This is an automatic-bid conference who sends a winner to the NCAA tournament.  That isn't just a throw-away.   I am in agreement that non-conference scheduling could be better, but its not the easiest thing in the world to schedule a bunch of top-tier talent to start a season (especially if your program is a bit of a nation unknown itself). 

Which brings me to my second gripe with Carroll receiving no love nationally (I would like to state for the record that I am not even sure if they are a top 25 team, but I do think that they should have at least one "others receiving votes" by now).  One of my major problems with the lack of recognition is not just because they are 7-0, but because of the dominant numbers they are putting up.  1st, Carroll is amongst the tops in Div. III in total defense and points allowed.  It has been a dominant season on the defensive side of the ball and their numbers put them at the top of the nation.  2nd, the same can be said for the seasons that LaMont and Burlingame are putting up.  Each of these guys are putting up numbers that compete league wide on a week-in and week-out basis.  It is a shame that it is being ignored.  Finally, the special teams scoring this season has been pretty amazing.  Returns for touchdowns have been abundant, but it goes by the wayside.  All-in-all, I think that these numbers being kicked to the curb is an injustice and should at least be worthy of  "others receiving votes" recognition.   

Next week we are off on an overnight road trip and the toughest test remaining on the schedule.  A win all but solidifies their spot in the title game... but "perfect regular season" does have such a nice ring to it.  Until next week...

I was going to respond at length to this too but Pat already beat me to it. Carroll to be brutally honest hasn't beaten anyone. Monmouth hasn't won a title in a long time without a Tanney at the helm and this is the worst team St. Norbert has had in at least 20 years. Ripon has their worst team since the 80s. It's been a perfect storm for Carroll this year but they'll still have to win on the road to win the MWC title. Even if they beat Illinois in the title game Illinois lost to an average St. Norbert squad. Carroll might just get that date with Whitewater or Bethel and then we'll know for sure.

scottie

HEY PAL, DON'T BLOCK THE SHOT!

Pat Coleman

Quote from: sncdangler on October 27, 2014, 07:00:27 PM
Carroll might just get that date with Whitewater or Bethel and then we'll know for sure.

If Carroll runs the table they won't get Whitewater. They might get Bethel but Bethel is at best the fourth-best team in this area. Whitewater, then Wartburg, then Linfield (who they won't get because of geography), then Bethel or Wheaton.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

gbpuckfan

#9577
A few thoughts...

* Carroll is aware the MWC is  a lower tier league so that's why it's leaving. Hmmm. Let's see - the fact that you did a LOT of boasting about Carroll's ONLY win against SNC in the 17 years of being in the conference goes to show that CU certainly hasn't been the top program in this conference. I don't quite get how it will make more NCAA tournaments going to a tougher league. The CCIW was a higher tier when CC left, so not sure how it will any different for CU when it returns.

* The best MWC teams can hang with the big boys. SNC was down 17-7 in the third quarter to UWW last year and lost by 24. That was a closer margin than the Mount Union loss in the title game (I'm NOT arguing that SNC would have beaten MTU, BTW. I'm guessing UWW took Mount Union a bit more seriously than it did SNC.)

* For any MWC team to get any respect, the conference has to do better in the playoffs - and the same MWC team has to be on the radar for more than one year. IIRC, just SNC and Monmouth have playoff wins. But with the series of titles, and a few close playoff loses, that at least put SNC in the minds of voters. CU hasn't got that 'brand recognition'.

* Some schools have sought out better teams, as Pat noted. A sampling of who SNC has played in the last decade or so in non-conference: St. Thomas, John Carroll, North Central, UW-Whitewater. SNC hasn't won many - but they went out and played them. Marian & Lakeland are a lot closer - and they haven't shown up on our schedule.

* I don't think the fact that the MWC has an autobid is much to hang your hat on. I think 24 conferences get them. (Correct me, here, please.) In this regard, the MWC is fortunate that the NCAA operates national tournaments, not tournaments with the best 32 teams. I have friends who are WIAC backers who continually bitch that the 2nd WIAC team should get a bid instead of the MWC champion because the WIAC 2nd could actually compete for the title. Most years, the WIAC 2 is going to be a better team than the MWC 1, but the NCAA wants national tourneys. But we're not a lot different than several leagues in that regard.

* The stats argument - especially on defense - isn;t going to get you far. Holding Lawrence - ranked in the bottom 20 or so nationally in the D3FB preseason rankings - to just six points isn't going to impress anyone. UWW is holding WIAC teams to 203 yards (4th overall) while CU is 20th against inferior competition.

* One problem that the MWC can't escape is geography. We play, literally, in the shadow of the WIAC. And except in hockey, we always pale in comparison. And we are almost always going to face them in the playoffs at some point because of proximity. The WIAC is a D2 conference in D3 clothing in some ways (resources, facilities, etc). If the MWC weren't in the WIAC's backyard, it might be easier to garner better comparisons.

Again, IIRC, the WIAC has the most NCAA team titles of any conference. And the MWC has zero. (SNC's four titles in hockey aren't representing the MWC.)

That said, it's a great opportunity. Last year, SNC men's hoops beat UWO and lost to UWW by just nine. Then winning a playoff game against Ohio Wesleyan helps the reputation. But you have to play them to beat them.


Trust me, Gaeger - as a SNC fan I feel your pain as much as anyone. Hoping for some recognition. Hoping for a playoff draw that's NOT UWW in the first round - or maybe even, gasp, a home game. Or wishing for a second playoff bid for the conference. But it's a patience thing - and a long term thing. If CU can run the table, the rest of the conference better cheer for them (or IC, or whoever) in the playoffs because that helps all of us. But for a team that hasn't been on the national stage, it's not coming yet.

That was why my original post on this was lamenting the conference's situation - not specifically about a lack of respect towards the Pioneers specifically. UWO comes out of 'nowhere' with a good football team and wins the WIAC a few years ago and the national respect is instanteous because it IS the WIAC. The MWC isn't there...

St. Norbert College Green Knights
NCAA D3 Hockey National Champions 2008, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018
Midwest Conf. football champs: 85, 87, 88, 89, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 06, 07, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18

hickory_cornhusker

Quote from: gbpuckfan on October 27, 2014, 09:35:39 PM
Again, IIRC, the WIAC has the most NCAA team titles of any conference. And the MWC has zero. (SNC's four titles in hockey aren't representing the MWC.)

MWC has one team national title. 1981 Men's Cross Country by Carleton College when they were still part of the Midwest Conference

gbpuckfan

#9579
Quote from: hickory_cornhusker on October 27, 2014, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: gbpuckfan on October 27, 2014, 09:35:39 PM
Again, IIRC, the WIAC has the most NCAA team titles of any conference. And the MWC has zero. (SNC's four titles in hockey aren't representing the MWC.)

MWC has one team national title. 1981 Men's Cross Country by Carleton College when they were still part of the Midwest Conference

I stand (partially) corrected. It was 1980.
http://www.ncaa.com/history/cross-country-men/d3

Still, not exactly a national force year-in-year-out

St. Norbert College Green Knights
NCAA D3 Hockey National Champions 2008, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018
Midwest Conf. football champs: 85, 87, 88, 89, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 06, 07, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18

Pat Coleman

Quote from: gbpuckfan on October 27, 2014, 09:35:39 PM
Marian & Lakeland are a lot closer - and they haven't shown up on our schedule.

Well, in fairness, Marian doesn't have football ...
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

gbpuckfan

 
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 27, 2014, 10:05:14 PM
Quote from: gbpuckfan on October 27, 2014, 09:35:39 PM
Marian & Lakeland are a lot closer - and they haven't shown up on our schedule.

Well, in fairness, Marian doesn't have football ...

;D details, details... 

OK, Rockford College hasn't shown up on our schedule. Or maybe I should use Marantha Baptist as the example...
St. Norbert College Green Knights
NCAA D3 Hockey National Champions 2008, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018
Midwest Conf. football champs: 85, 87, 88, 89, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 06, 07, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18

grboob

 Here is an obscure fact.

Monmouth presently is rated #7 in DIII Strength of Schedule  with 246 teams listed  (according to D3 Football (NCAA stats)

So everyone else in the MWC needs to step it up.

gbpuckfan

Carroll did crack the Top 25 in the coaches poll. (#24)
http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/football/d3
St. Norbert College Green Knights
NCAA D3 Hockey National Champions 2008, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018
Midwest Conf. football champs: 85, 87, 88, 89, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 06, 07, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18

gbpuckfan

#9584
Quote from: grboob on October 28, 2014, 12:13:15 AM
Here is an obscure fact.

Monmouth presently is rated #7 in DIII Strength of Schedule  with 246 teams listed  (according to D3 Football (NCAA stats)

So everyone else in the MWC needs to step it up.

Everyone:

#8 - Monmouth
#8 - Ripon
#15 - Lake Forest
#72 - St. Norbert
#95 - Beloit
#110 - Carroll
#142 - Grinnell
#183 - Illinois College
#194 - Cornell
#209 - Lawrence
#230 - Knox
#239 - Macalester

http://stats.ncaa.org/rankings?sport_code=MFB&division=3

that's five teams in the bottom 50 overall.
St. Norbert College Green Knights
NCAA D3 Hockey National Champions 2008, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2018
Midwest Conf. football champs: 85, 87, 88, 89, 99, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 06, 07, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18