MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by Board Mod, February 28, 2005, 11:18:51 AM

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Mr. Ypsi

As I listen to the nonstop fireworks this evening (my dog is NOT happy), it occurred to me that if you ever want to murder a neighbor, tonight is the night!  All potential witnesses will just assume it was more fireworks.  Barring some random eyewitness or (your fault) forensic evidence, you are home free. ;D

Confound it, I can't think of any neighbor I hate that much! :o ::)

My dog would disagree, but Happy Fourth of July to all anyway.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: veterancciwfan on July 02, 2015, 12:12:36 AMRegarding Carroll's readmission to the CCIW: With many schools looking to control spending, adding Carroll in 2016/17 will result in lowering the substantial amount the former 8 member schools will have to pay to fund the CCIW Commissioner's office (which has two full time employees). The total cost will then be divided by 9.

I know that Chris Martin and Mike Krizman are well-compensated by the league for their work as commish and vice-commish/SID, respectively, but, as you said, Chris and Mike by themselves constitute the entire league office. That's not a huge amount of administrative overhead. And adding another school only brings down the salary payment per school for Chris and Mike from 12.5% to 11.3%, so it's not as though each of the eight incumbent schools thereby saves a substantial amount of money by adding Carroll. Adding a tenth school would reduce it from 11.3% to 10% -- again, it's a savings, but not nearly as big a savings as you seem to be implying.

I don't think that this is the reason why the eight presidents decided to re-admit Carroll to the league.

Quote from: veterancciwfan on July 02, 2015, 12:12:36 AMMany college presidents and their boards of trustees spend a lot of time looking at ways to reduce spending during the time when college age demographics are not favorable.

When you add in the expenses involved with travel to Waukesha by the other eight schools in each sport -- as well as overnight stays by three of the four current outlier schools (Carthage, IWU, and Millikin) plus Carroll if the CCIW chooses to revive the old system of using travel partners to get in both long-distance road games over the course of a weekend -- I'm not sure that there's any cost savings involved in adding Carroll to the league.

Quote from: veterancciwfan on July 02, 2015, 12:12:36 AMI wouldn't be surprised if the CCIW added a 10th member by 2020.

The eight presidents explicitly stated when the re-admission of Carroll was announced in April of 2014 that the league was not looking to expand to ten members in the short term, despite the obvious scheduling advantages that would accrue from restoring an even number of CCIW members. But ... never say never. Nobody thought that the league would go back to nine members, but that's exactly what happened.

Quote from: WUH on July 02, 2015, 09:43:56 AMMy claim was that Milliken was the least expensive CCIW school after the discount rate is factored in.  I do not not have the data for discount rate overall, but I do have the freshmen numbers.  And, if you believe that the freshmen numbers tell enough of the story (which I do), then North Park barely edges out Milliken.

This is interesting stuff, WUH. Thanks for posting that freshman cost data. I have to point out, though, that you're misspelling "Millikin" -- there's no 'e' in the name of our southernmost member.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

kiko

Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 07, 2015, 02:10:06 PM
Quote from: veterancciwfan on July 02, 2015, 12:12:36 AMRegarding Carroll's readmission to the CCIW: With many schools looking to control spending, adding Carroll in 2016/17 will result in lowering the substantial amount the former 8 member schools will have to pay to fund the CCIW Commissioner's office (which has two full time employees). The total cost will then be divided by 9.

I know that Chris Martin and Mike Krizman are well-compensated by the league for their work as commish and vice-commish/SID, respectively, but, as you said, Chris and Mike by themselves constitute the entire league office. That's not a huge amount of administrative overhead. And adding another school only brings down the salary payment per school for Chris and Mike from 12.5% to 11.3%, so it's not as though each of the eight incumbent schools thereby saves a substantial amount of money by adding Carroll. Adding a tenth school would reduce it from 11.3% to 10% -- again, it's a savings, but not nearly as big a savings as you seem to be implying.

I don't think that this is the reason why the eight presidents decided to re-admit Carroll to the league.

To put some (hypothetical) numbers behind this, let's say these two employees cost a total of $300,000 for salaries and benefits.  I have no idea if that is high, low, or exact, but it works for example purposes.

Divide that among eight schools and the per school cost is $37,500 each.

Divide that among nine schools and the per school cost is $33,333 each.

Divide that among ten schools and the per school cost is $30,000 each.

As Gregory mentioned, if you added an additional school, you will give a lot of that savings back with other costs -- largely travel-related -- that you'd incur from adding a member at the edge of or beyond your footprint.

Now, use the economies of scale from adding additional schools to afford Messrs Martin and Krizman a better negotiating position as they begin marketing the CCIW Network to various and sundry cable providers ("but now we also cover the Racine DMA..."), and that's a whole 'nother conversation...  ::)

AndOne

Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 04, 2015, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: WUH on July 03, 2015, 05:43:30 PM
I have to believe that Division III schools do award institutional aid here and there to recruit athletes, but I am not sure how that could be done frequently as there is an annual financial aid reporting process: http://www.ncaa.org/division-iii-financial-aid-reporting-program

If an institution finds a lot of money for athletes, they will find themselves facing an NCAA review.

Bingo.

But consider that in basketball you don't have to do it frequently.
In a sport where only 5 players are in the game at a time, ONE player can make a significant difference. Given the usual 4 year college career, all a school has to do is give an inordinate amount of aid to a single basketball player every 4 years to very possibly put itself in a prominent position on the court.
It would seem that such activity in favor of a blue chip player only once every 4 years wouldn't draw that much attention. Furthermore, creative forensic accounting practices could likely provide quite a bit of cover, and increase the odds that an irregular aid package would be that much more unlikely to be noticed. True? Love to hear other's thoughts!

Gregory Sager

What you're theorizing about a stealthy bestowal of inordinate financial aid is true as far as it goes, Mark. But where your thesis loses me is the singling out of men's basketball. Yeah, it's true that this could be a very successful (albeit unethical) policy if we're talking strictly about men's basketball. But men's basketball doesn't have the sharp elbows and king-of-the-hill clout in D3 athletic departments that it does in their D1 peers. Show me a D3 school where somebody's squirreling away aid money to hand to a single gifted men's basketball player for four years at a time, and I'll show you either: a) a financial aid officer who is so biased in favor of the men's basketball program in particular that if he or she is ever found out, he or she will be hung out to dry by the rest of the athletic department as well as by the administration; or b) a situation in which the other head coaches in the department have found out what the head men's basketball coach has cooking in the kitchen, and are now standing in line with their own bowls and spoons. And, of course, in those other sports, one player -- and only one -- flush with extra financial aid typically doesn't make as much of a difference as it does in men's basketball. Therefore, those coaches are probably showing up in line with bigger bowls and spoons than that of the men's basketball coach.

I'm not saying that this sort of thing doesn't happen. I'm simply saying that it requires an impressive feat of legerdemain both to make it work and to keep it out of public knowledge.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Greek Tragedy

Which probably means Mark won't be able to show you a D3 school squirreling money!  :P
Pointers
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TGHIJGSTO!!!

AndOne

I agree wholeheartedly. And, it's important to note that I am NOT pointing a finger at any particular school or even, specifically, at basketball. I'm sure that if this type of ting does occur, it's vary rare indeed.
I was merely commenting on something that WUH's post made me think of, and which was posted on a basketball board which is where I responded.
Additionally, with basketball being the sport I am most familiar with, and thus follow the most closely, the first thought that came to mind was that if such a situation were to occur, basketball-where one player can make a significant difference due to the relatively small number of players in the game at any one time, would be one of the sports where such an arrangement could potentially have the highest chance of success.
Again, I'm sure this type of thing is rare, especially in D3 where we're not talking about millions of dollars and/or football and basketball providing a major portion of the athletic budget for all the other sports as in D1. However, I'd bet it has happened sporadically. And, judging from the  major role that I've seen money play in college decisions in the last few years, it's that much easier to accept that someplace, someone may have given in to temptation. And, if so, we needn't be talking about huge dollar amounts here. A few D1 tricks that I've heard of, scaled down considerably, and likely that much more inconspicuously, is all it might take to add a few thousand dollars to the pot, and possibly make a difference. A couple of "special" alumni scholarship, a "bonus" meal plan package, or getting a kid a summer job changing light bulbs for $20.00 an hour is all it might take.
Rare? Indeed. Quite possibly non-existent. Inconceivable? No way.
Again, no accusations either expressly stated or implied. Just a thought for discussion. Isn't that part of why we're here?  :)

AndOne

#40522
After leading D3 in average attendance in 2013-14, the CCIW fell to second place this past season with an average attendance of 758 compared to the 1st place MIAA which averaged 806. Hope College led the nation with an average of 2,331. Wooster (1,620) was 2nd.

CCIW teams appearing in the top 20 were:

Augie-3rd with an average of 1,460
IWU-6th with 1,325
NCC-17th with 930
Wheaton-19th with 894

Full report:

http://i.turner.ncaa.com/sites/default/files/images/2015/07/07/2014-15_mbb_attendance.pdf

WUPHF

Quote from: Gregory Sager on July 07, 2015, 02:10:06 PM
I have to point out, though, that you're misspelling "Millikin" -- there's no 'e' in the name of our southernmost member.

I am glad you pointed that out because I hate it when others misspell the name of a college or university.  For the 2014-2015 season, I am 0-2 for Millikin related facts.

As for your points about financial aid, I agree wholeheartedly.

You would certainly know better than I, but it seems to me that the NCAA makes it hard to cheat in Division III.  For example, with the Fontbonne case from a few years ago, the institution was caught awarding an extra $48,000 to 23 players.  That is not a lot of money.  A slight aberration, it seems, quickly draws scrutiny.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/PressArchive/2011/division+iii+committee+on+infractions+issues+decision+on+fontbonne+university.htm

Gregory Sager

Yeah, you look at stuff in D1 like the University of North Carolina situation, and the fact that that NCAA press release about Fontbonne refers to "major violations" when what it amounted to was about a couple of grand per student, and you almost laugh. Not that I condone what Fontbonne did, of course, but some perspective is certainly in order.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

markerickson

Did Carroll depart the CCIW with NPC's winning streak against the WI intact?  At one time long ago NPC had winning streaks against the two WI teams that each exceeded 30 games.
Once a metalhead, always a metalhead.  Matthew 5:13.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Don't forget... CalTech was treated to post season penalties for what was deemed a major violation for what most people,would have just shrugged their shoulders. Those in D3 want the division to be held at a higher standard.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: markerickson on July 09, 2015, 12:46:10 PM
Did Carroll depart the CCIW with NPC's winning streak against the WI intact?  At one time long ago NPC had winning streaks against the two WI teams that each exceeded 30 games.

Actually, Mark, the Vikings did not have a winning streak of that length against Carroll. It was Elmhurst and Carthage that the Vikings dominated for decade-and-a-half stretches. North Park had a 33-game winning streak against the Bluejays that ran from 1976 to 1993, and a 33-game winning streak against Carthage that ran from 1977 to 1994.

North Park did have a 17-game winning streak going against Carroll when the Pioneers left the league after the 1991-92 season, but that ended in 2008-09 when NPU traveled to Waukesha for a non-conference game and lost, 95-82.

As long as you're taking a stroll down memory lane, though, you might enjoy this two-hour bit of nostalgia.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

NPU has added incoming freshman C.J. Dukes, a 6'4 small forward from Steinmetz, to the fold. Tom Slyder really likes his long-term potential.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

markerickson

Greg!  Thanks for the link to history (not 1987 nostalgia)!!

During my senior year I had a job with NPC's physical plant where I was responsible for cleaning and had garbage duty for the athletic wing below ground level at Foster and Kedzie.  In retrospect, I don't know why I tossed Bosko's papers and notes.  Just prior to graduation, an assistant men's basketball coach gave me a VHS tape of the 1985 NPC bball championship game.  Two stars of that championship team, Justyne Monegain and Earnest Hubbard, lived directly across from me and my Swedish exchange student in the dorm.  Earnie asked for the video, and I gave it to him.  Twenty years later I petitioned the NCAA to give me access to NPC's fourth national championship game so the alum could watch at Homecoming, but my request went nowhere.

Two years later Bosko retooled the team, and I attended the Viking xmas tourney victory at Bethel C/U and the 1987 Final Four.  Greg Sager and friend Eli Yurick are seen in the game video Greg has posted.  I sat nearer to the court and am not on video. The announcers are Les Grobstein and Rus Bradburd, both of whom were Chicagoans.  Thus, the commentary contains snippets about the Gierke brothers, McCarrell, and other references to those familiar with matters at Foster and Kedzie as opposed to Clark.

Mitchell.  Starks.  Parker.  Gierke.  Gaddefors.  Barach looked so smooth, and both he and Mi. Starks dominated.  Myron scored a career high.  Thanks for the memories!   
 
Once a metalhead, always a metalhead.  Matthew 5:13.