Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

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redswarm81

While this isn't exactly the angle Ralph was playing when he started this board,  I think this discussion I had with K-Mack is worth sharing:

Quote from: hscoach on November 02, 2005, 06:30:15 PM
If team A has to play 4 very tough and physical teams to get to the Stagg, and team B gets to play Little Sisters of the Poor each week, which team do you think might be in better physical condition to win the Stagg? 

I don't see a clear cut advantage one way or the other.  Your implication is that the team with tough competition will be in worse physical condition, but I think that the untested team will be in worse competitive condition.  It has been correctly said (and misunderstood) on many boards here that a team plays to the level of its competition.  If a team's season long competition is doormats, that team will not be able to perform at as high a level as it could, if it had played tougher competition.

Although it's not directly on point re: Pool C bids, you're raising a great point about college football that I've mentioned several times on other boards.  The point is this: it is impossible to maintain for an extended period of time the level of physical conditioning necessary to play football consistently well and safely.  My Division III coach felt that the point of diminishing returns was reached at around nine weeks, and I've seen no reason to believe otherwise.

This is Division III football.  Academics come before athletics.  I personally wish that more people in positions of authority would reflect carefully on the appropriateness of promoting a five week tournament on top of a ten game regular season.  It's exciting, it's fun, but is it safe, and is it consistent with the principles of Division III?
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

smedindy

Academics do come before athletics, of course.

However, I would hate to deny student athletes the right to compete for a championship. It has been shown that top-notch academic schools can compete and win championships in Division III.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


You know a D3 BCS system would just solve all of this confusion.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

redswarm81

Quote from: smedindy on November 03, 2005, 09:48:08 AM
Academics do come before athletics, of course.

However, I would hate to deny student athletes the right to compete for a championship. It has been shown that top-notch academic schools can compete and win championships in Division III.

The right to compete for a championship?  Whence comes this right?

The best definition I've ever heard of a right is "a privilege protected by a remedy."  Privilege must be granted, presumably by some authority.  Competing in a championship is no more a right than attending Williams College is a right.

If you grant competing in a championship the status of a right, then doesn't that mean you are placing it ahead of academics?  Even if you're granted the privilege of attending Williams, you don't have a right to a degree, you don't even have a right to a passing grade (although I bet Dr. Ypsi has encountered students who feel otherwise).  A right to compete in a national championship would then be placing a higher priority on athletics.

Of course students and teams from top notch academic schools can win national championships, but doesn't it require emphasizing athletics over academics--even if it's only done temporarily--for those national champion students?

The ultimate question I'm asking is what is the marginal improvement in education, the stated priority of Division III?  How is a Williams College education more well-rounded by virtue of a team winning a national championship, vs. that same team going undefeated in three straight seasons of 8 games each against other top notch academic schools?
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

Warren Thompson

redswarm81:

Perhaps smedindy meant "opportunity" rather than right ....

[BTW as a retired-but-still-teaching college faculty member, I'm more than passingly familiar with a student's "right" to a good grade -- wanna see my scars?  :(]

redswarm81

Quote from: Warren Thompson on November 03, 2005, 11:02:13 AM
redswarm81:

Perhaps smedindy meant "opportunity" rather than right ....

Of course he did, but I don't think that changes the argument.

Quote from: Warren Thompson on November 03, 2005, 11:02:13 AM
[BTW as a retired-but-still-teaching college faculty member, I'm more than passingly familiar with a student's "right" to a good grade -- wanna see my scars?  :(]

I don't doubt you and no thanks, I get queasy at the sight of mortal wounds.   :o
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

Warren Thompson

... and some of the really, really mortal wounds were inflicted by a student's parents, the sort who believe their offspring couldn't possible deserve a C-. :'(

smedindy

#52
I meant opportunity. And I do feel that competing in a sport does offer one to learn some valuable life lessons. Extra-cirriculars should be encouraged, competition should be valued. Athletics, debate, jazz band, theater, College Bowl - they are all part of a rich, well-rounded experience.

Many of our most successful alums were also athletes, and what they did was learn to balance and prioritize one's life.  Many of our athletes also participate in other extra-cirriculars in the off season. It is not unusual to see a football player or two treading the boards, or singing in the glee club, or engaging in other activities.

Having the opportunity to test your mettle against the best of the nation is a valuable experience.

While they don't have the "name cache" of some schools in the NESCAC - the schools in the NCAC and SCAC, among others, hold their own academically with them. And they compete on the national stage. Look at Kenyon in swimming, Trinity in football, Wooster in hoops.

There are national competitions of all sorts for students in college - would you discourage them as well? Life lessons are learned in various ways.




redswarm81

#53
Quote from: smedindy on November 03, 2005, 12:08:49 PM
I meant opportunity. And I do feel that competing in a sport does offer one to learn some valuable life lessons. Extra-cirriculars should be encouraged, competition should be valued. Athletics, debate, jazz band, theater, College Bowl - they are all part of a rich, well-rounded experience.
* * *
Having the opportunity to test your mettle against the best of the nation is a valuable experience.

There are national competitions of all sorts for students in college - would you discourage them as well? Life lessons are learned in various ways.

I understand all that Smed, but I don't think you addressed my question:

What is the marginal improvement in education, the stated priority of Division III?  How is a Williams (or Wooster or Oberlin) College education more well-rounded by virtue of a team winning a national championship, vs. that same team going undefeated in three straight seasons of 8 games each against other top notch academic schools?

I would discourage--for example, national debate championship participation, if it distracted the debate students from their higher priority academics as much as a football national championship distracts football players.

You mention that competing on a national level is a valuable experience, but you seem to be ignoring the costs.  Is it worth the costs?  What are the costs that you see?  I include in my calculation of the costs the knowledge that the administration is willing to rearrange its stated priorities, even if only temporarily, for the sake of athletic championships.   What is to prevent that administration from rearranging its priorities in favor of other non-academic pursuits?  In other words, what guarantees am I going to get for my $30,000+/year tuition, other than the right to mortally wound the Dr. Warrens of the world should they have the audacity to grade my child's below-grade work honestly?

I'm trying to sort this out, and I appreciate all input.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


The players go to Williams knowing full well that they won't get to compete in the post-season.  They choose to be there.  They choose to pay to be there.  I doubt any of them have their academic priorities out of whack.  If there is still a call from the athletic department to do post-season for football, maybe they should give it a try, perhaps the players know their own abilities better than the administration.

I think if Williams or Amherst or whoever is putting out the intellects that they have historically produced, these great minds should be trusted to make decent choices.

I don't think there are too many student-athletes in the NESCAC who would sacrifice academic performance for athletic success.

I'm not advocating for the post-season, but I'm saying that it should be up to the players.  If they vote or discuss it or whatever and come to the realization that most of the team can't handle finals and practice, then its settled.

Many colleges treat their students like glorified teenagers right up until graduation, when they expect them to be totally self-sufficient adults.  Perhaps part of the education is teaching them responsiblity, time management and priorities.

Neither the problem nor the solution is as simple as I made it sound, but there must be serious consideration given to the athletes themselves.  Like the court system learned, things often work out best when the kid picks which parent gets custody.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

smedindy

I don't see how schools, such as Wabash, rearrange their academic priorities so that the teams can compete for a championship.  At least in the NCAC, SCAC and the UAA, they expect the athletes to face the same rigor in the classroom as the other students.  I doubt that anyone who swims at Kenyon is excused from the hard work in the classroom that is expected of a Kenyon student.

I think the NCAC would suffer if it merely played other NCAC schools. You become insular.

Would it really hurt the NESCAC to schedule a ninth game, and make it a regional game or something? Or are they that elitist to think that no one else in that region is worthy of their presence?

Knightstalker

Even at lowly state colleges in NJ student athletes who participate in the post season are expected to make up all work and attend class.  On the NJCU mens basketball team coach Brown gets an attendance list for all of his players and other students associated with the team.  If they have unexcused absences from classes they better have a good reason and they still face a chance of being benched for at least part of the game depending on the reason.  Not only athletes miss class because of activities.  Many Music, Dance and Theatre majors at NJCU and other schools miss large amounts of class time (sometimes much more than athletes) due to upcoming or currently running performances.  They are also expected to make up all work and clear everything with all professors.  Usually a memo sent to all faculty from the department chair would handle any complaints from the professors.

If schools chose not to participate in the NCAA post-season that is their choice.  I happen to think that the championships are a valuable educational tool for the athletes and for other students and each student athlete has a vote on whether or not they play in these tournaments, it is called enrolling at the school of their choice and trying out for the team.

IF the service academies don't have a problem with NCAA post season play I don't see why NESCAC and Ivy league schools have one.  I really don't think there are any harder workers then the students at the service academies and that is including Kings Point and the Coast Guard Academy.

"In the end we will survive rather than perish not because we accumulate comfort and luxury but because we accumulate wisdom"  Colonel Jack Jacobs US Army (Ret).

redswarm81

Quote from: Hoops Fan on November 03, 2005, 01:23:04 PM
The players go to Williams knowing full well that they won't get to compete in the post-season. They choose to be there. They choose to pay to be there.

Sigh.  I was afraid that if I used Williams as my example, some would be unable to separate my question from the issue of NESCAC policy.  I only used Williams as an example of high quality academics in a well rounded educational experience.

What is the marginal improvement in education, the stated priority of Division III?  How is a Wooster or Oberlin College education more well-rounded by virtue of a team winning a national championship, vs. that same team going undefeated in three straight seasons of 8 games each against other top notch academic schools, or that same team winning 3, 8,  and 2 games in successive seasons?

Quote from: smedindy on November 03, 2005, 01:33:16 PM
I don't see how schools, such as Wabash, rearrange their academic priorities so that the teams can compete for a championship.

You can't be serious.  Being willing to spend thousands of dollars per student over a potential five week schedule, granting students leeway to travel longer distances than usual, doesn't reflect a reordering of priority, in favor of athletics?

Let's face it--we all know that during the playoffs every single player places his athletics at a higher priority than his academics.  Every administration knows this, and therefore every administration that permits playoff participation is endorsing the massive distraction from academics that playoff participation causes.  Isn't that knowinglyl reordering the priority of academics and athletics for those students?

Quote from: smedindy on November 03, 2005, 01:33:16 PM
I think the NCAC would suffer if it merely played other NCAC schools. You become insular.

You must be addressing athletics only, and ignoring academics.

Here the NESCAC comparison is apt.  Which "insular" NESCAC school has a reputation of providing a less well rounded education than any NCAC school?

Quote from: knightstalker on November 03, 2005, 01:52:56 PM
IF the service academies don't have a problem with NCAA post season play I don't see why NESCAC and Ivy league schools have one. I really don't think there are any harder workers then the students at the service academies and that is including Kings Point and the Coast Guard Academy.

I agree with you regarding the rigor of service academies, but there is a BIG difference, one that makes your analogy flawed.  At all service academies, every student is required to participate in extracurricular activities to the same extent.  While the football team is practicing during the playoffs, the rowing team is practicing as well, even though its season is complete.  If the service academy football team doesn't qualify for playoffs, it will still hold practices after their season is complete.  Participation in playoffs by service academies is far more consistent with their academic v. athletic priorities than it is at "civilian" schools, where participation in extracurricular activities is optional.
Irritating SAT-lagging Union undergrads and alums since 1977

Warren Thompson

redswarm:

"... Dr. Warrens of the world ...."?  ???

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: redswarm81 on November 03, 2005, 02:48:52 PM

What is the marginal improvement in education, the stated priority of Division III?

You've used this a few times now and maybe I'm missing the point, but this sentence appears flawed to me.  Is there a stated priority of "marginal improvement?"  I guess I'm looking for your basis of making this claim.  Improvement from what? and why is it marginal?

Also, you quoted me totally out of context.  If you read the rest of the post, you could have seen that I am not making a claim one way or another.  I see perfect logic in both sides of the argument.  However, I am taking umbrage at the fact that these decisions are made beyond the purview of the student-athletes themselves.

It seems dumb to quote myself, but

Quote from: Hoops Fan on November 03, 2005, 01:23:04 PM

The players go to Williams knowing full well that they won't get to compete in the post-season. They choose to be there. They choose to pay to be there. I doubt any of them have their academic priorities out of whack. If there is still a call from the athletic department to do post-season for football, maybe they should give it a try, perhaps the players know their own abilities better than the administration.

It's about the administration being willing to give some of the say on implimentation of the schools mission to the students themselves.  Quoting again,

Quote from: Hoops Fan on November 03, 2005, 01:23:04 PM

Many colleges treat their students like glorified teenagers right up until graduation, when they expect them to be totally self-sufficient adults. Perhaps part of the education is teaching them responsiblity, time management and priorities.

Neither the problem nor the solution is as simple, but there must be serious consideration given to the athletes themselves. As the court system learned, things often work out best when the kid picks which parent gets custody.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere