Playoffs -- 2015

Started by Ralph Turner, November 17, 2015, 02:42:43 AM

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miac952

#330
Quote from: thewaterboy on December 19, 2015, 10:13:50 AM
Quote from: miac952 on December 19, 2015, 09:30:23 AM
Quote from: wesleydad on December 19, 2015, 07:58:43 AM
Quote from: pg04 on December 19, 2015, 06:10:50 AM
Quote from: wesleydad on December 18, 2015, 11:15:17 PM
guess the silly talk about st johns as a top 5 can stop.  and the real talk about where does Wesley end up start.  If UST is 2 than Wesley is 3, but I would flip them.  Nothing tonight says that UST is better.

Honestly just no. If you are going to make one game the end all be all (a game that Wesley was LOSING 49-14 at the half, as opposed to being tied at 14), the Salisbury game automatically disqualifies Wesley from being part of the conversation to be ahead of or equal to the Tommies. Even so, STT probably had 4 wins better than anything Wesley had (STJ twice, Wabash, Linfield). St Thomas and Mount were clearly the two best teams in the country.



I love the fire but this is just complete homer bluster.

having fun with it pg.  I know they will not jump to #2 in the rankings.  you are right the salisbury loss is bad.  as far as comparing games they are similar.  each team got smoked in a half, does it really matter which half?  STT will be ranked #2.  It will be interesting how the rest of it falls into place.

That's what I don't get abou this. Your basing a LEAP to #2 based on a game in which Wesley was getting absolutely rolled 49-14 at the half and ended up still losing by 21. Never mind the lack of quality wins and a loss to Salisbury. Whitewater beat Morningside, Platteville, and Oshkosh. UST drubbed Wabash, Linfield, and SJU x2.

Might be want of the strangest arguments I've seen for leaping over teams I've seen. We were getting beat by 35 at halftime to a team and lost by 21, but it looked so cute in the process that we should jump 5-6 other teams.
Again,  does it really matter which half? Wesley outscored Mount 21-7 in the second half with a chance to make it a 7 pt game with 6 mins to go in the 4th, but was outplayed in the first. Just like UST was outplayed in the second half.

And you say lack of quality wins, but you failed to recall that Wesley beat NCC, who's top 15-20, and JHU who was top 10. Both of those games on the road.

My point was to use a game that was over at halftime for your argument to jump in the rankings is fruitless. And those two wins are nice but NC lost two other games and was not a playoff team. It's not beating a Wabash, Linfield, SJU, or Oshkosh. It's even more true looking at a really bad loss on the schedule to Salisbury. Does Wesley measure with teams 2-4? Yes, they would give each a ballgame. But a 2 loss team can't use a 21 point loss as the sole basis to jump a few teams.

thewaterboy

Quote from: miac952 on December 19, 2015, 10:25:06 AM
Quote from: thewaterboy on December 19, 2015, 10:13:50 AM
Quote from: miac952 on December 19, 2015, 09:30:23 AM
Quote from: wesleydad on December 19, 2015, 07:58:43 AM
Quote from: pg04 on December 19, 2015, 06:10:50 AM
Quote from: wesleydad on December 18, 2015, 11:15:17 PM
guess the silly talk about st johns as a top 5 can stop.  and the real talk about where does Wesley end up start.  If UST is 2 than Wesley is 3, but I would flip them.  Nothing tonight says that UST is better.

Honestly just no. If you are going to make one game the end all be all (a game that Wesley was LOSING 49-14 at the half, as opposed to being tied at 14), the Salisbury game automatically disqualifies Wesley from being part of the conversation to be ahead of or equal to the Tommies. Even so, STT probably had 4 wins better than anything Wesley had (STJ twice, Wabash, Linfield). St Thomas and Mount were clearly the two best teams in the country.



I love the fire but this is just complete homer bluster.

having fun with it pg.  I know they will not jump to #2 in the rankings.  you are right the salisbury loss is bad.  as far as comparing games they are similar.  each team got smoked in a half, does it really matter which half?  STT will be ranked #2.  It will be interesting how the rest of it falls into place.

That's what I don't get abou this. Your basing a LEAP to #2 based on a game in which Wesley was getting absolutely rolled 49-14 at the half and ended up still losing by 21. Never mind the lack of quality wins and a loss to Salisbury. Whitewater beat Morningside, Platteville, and Oshkosh. UST drubbed Wabash, Linfield, and SJU x2.

Might be want of the strangest arguments I've seen for leaping over teams I've seen. We were getting beat by 35 at halftime to a team and lost by 21, but it looked so cute in the process that we should jump 5-6 other teams.
Again,  does it really matter which half? Wesley outscored Mount 21-7 in the second half with a chance to make it a 7 pt game with 6 mins to go in the 4th, but was outplayed in the first. Just like UST was outplayed in the second half.

And you say lack of quality wins, but you failed to recall that Wesley beat NCC, who's top 15-20, and JHU who was top 10. Both of those games on the road.

My point was to use a game that was over at halftime for your argument to jump in the rankings is fruitless. And those two wins are nice NC lost two other games and east a playoff team. It's not beating a Wabash, Linfield, SJU, or Oshkosh. It's even more true looking at a really bad loss on the schedule to Salisbury. Does Wesley measure with 2-4? Yes, they would give each a ballgame. But a 2 loss team can't use a 21 point loss as the sole basis to jump a few teams.
Sorry but that game was not over at half. If it was, Wesley would have never played the second half the way they did. The Salisbury loss hurts but is not indicative of the overall quality of Wesley. 9 times out of 10 that result goes to Wesley based on the fact that they rolled up 600+ yards off offense in that game and that there were 2 drops by open receivers on Wesleys last drive. SJU didnt beat anyone, so how can you say with any certainty that the Tommies wins over them were better quality than Wesleys over NCC or JHU? Ill give you the other 2, even though Linfield played that game with a hurt Sam Riddle.

Sometimes all you have is the transitive property. UST did not show anything yesterday that proved they were better quality than Wesley 

miac952

#332
Quote from: thewaterboy on December 19, 2015, 10:46:51 AM
Quote from: miac952 on December 19, 2015, 10:25:06 AM
Quote from: thewaterboy on December 19, 2015, 10:13:50 AM
Quote from: miac952 on December 19, 2015, 09:30:23 AM
Quote from: wesleydad on December 19, 2015, 07:58:43 AM
Quote from: pg04 on December 19, 2015, 06:10:50 AM
Quote from: wesleydad on December 18, 2015, 11:15:17 PM
guess the silly talk about st johns as a top 5 can stop.  and the real talk about where does Wesley end up start.  If UST is 2 than Wesley is 3, but I would flip them.  Nothing tonight says that UST is better.

Honestly just no. If you are going to make one game the end all be all (a game that Wesley was LOSING 49-14 at the half, as opposed to being tied at 14), the Salisbury game automatically disqualifies Wesley from being part of the conversation to be ahead of or equal to the Tommies. Even so, STT probably had 4 wins better than anything Wesley had (STJ twice, Wabash, Linfield). St Thomas and Mount were clearly the two best teams in the country.



I love the fire but this is just complete homer bluster.

having fun with it pg.  I know they will not jump to #2 in the rankings.  you are right the salisbury loss is bad.  as far as comparing games they are similar.  each team got smoked in a half, does it really matter which half?  STT will be ranked #2.  It will be interesting how the rest of it falls into place.

That's what I don't get abou this. Your basing a LEAP to #2 based on a game in which Wesley was getting absolutely rolled 49-14 at the half and ended up still losing by 21. Never mind the lack of quality wins and a loss to Salisbury. Whitewater beat Morningside, Platteville, and Oshkosh. UST drubbed Wabash, Linfield, and SJU x2.

Might be want of the strangest arguments I've seen for leaping over teams I've seen. We were getting beat by 35 at halftime to a team and lost by 21, but it looked so cute in the process that we should jump 5-6 other teams.
Again,  does it really matter which half? Wesley outscored Mount 21-7 in the second half with a chance to make it a 7 pt game with 6 mins to go in the 4th, but was outplayed in the first. Just like UST was outplayed in the second half.

And you say lack of quality wins, but you failed to recall that Wesley beat NCC, who's top 15-20, and JHU who was top 10. Both of those games on the road.

My point was to use a game that was over at halftime for your argument to jump in the rankings is fruitless. And those two wins are nice NC lost two other games and east a playoff team. It's not beating a Wabash, Linfield, SJU, or Oshkosh. It's even more true looking at a really bad loss on the schedule to Salisbury. Does Wesley measure with 2-4? Yes, they would give each a ballgame. But a 2 loss team can't use a 21 point loss as the sole basis to jump a few teams.
Sorry but that game was not over at half. If it was, Wesley would have never played the second half the way they did. The Salisbury loss hurts but is not indicative of the overall quality of Wesley. 9 times out of 10 that result goes to Wesley based on the fact that they rolled up 600+ yards off offense in that game and that there were 2 drops by open receivers on Wesleys last drive. SJU didnt beat anyone, so how can you say with any certainty that the Tommies wins over them were better quality than Wesleys over NCC or JHU? Ill give you the other 2, even though Linfield played that game with a hurt Sam Riddle.

Sometimes all you have is the transitive property. UST did not show anything yesterday that proved they were better quality than Wesley

49-14 at the half to Mount is all she wrote. Down 35 at the half to the #1 team in the country is as over as it can get. Great for Wesley to keep fighting. Shows some mettle. But they still got walloped by 21 points. If that's our sole resume bullet point then there isn't much.

Agree that UST showed little to get excited about in the 2nd half. But once again I wasn't aware rankings throw out the previous 14 GAMES. And we want to jump a team with 2 losses over a team with one loss because there 21 point loss was cuter than UST's 14 point loss.

Never mind the fact that Linfield, Whitewater, and MHB also have some stronger arguments too. If #2 is some big goal of Wesley's than don't lose to Salisbury and don't worked over by the mighty Mount before the teams even get tot the locker room at halftime.

jknezek

Here's an interesting set of numbers:

D1 Semifinals
Alabama 38 - 0 Michigan State
Clemson 37- 17 Oklahoma

FCS Semifinals
Jacksonville St 58 - Charleston Southern 38
North Dakota St 23 - UNI 13

D2 Semifinals
N'west Mo St  38 -- 23 West Georgia
Shepherd 34 -- Grand Valley St 32

D3 Semifinals
Mount Union 36 - 6 UWW
St. Thomas 38 - 17 Linfield

Only one of these games was a really good game, and the winner of that game was shellacked in the finals (DII -- Shepherd got creamed). Otherwise, not one other semifinal was within one score. Interesting how that happened this year, but it seems like throughout college football the finalist teams are a significant cut above everyone else.

wally_wabash

Quote from: jknezek on January 04, 2016, 09:57:19 AM
Only one of these games was a really good game, and the winner of that game was shellacked in the finals (DII -- Shepherd got creamed). Otherwise, not one other semifinal was within one score. Interesting how that happened this year, but it seems like throughout college football the finalist teams are a significant cut above everyone else.

As fan of the college football and no real rooting interests, this was just a very depressing weekend.  There weren't any good games to speak of, certainly not the marquee games.  The one or two that were competitive weren't particularly compelling (hard to get geared up for a day full of exhibition games the day after the semifinals). 

As far as the scores of the semis go, I think you see a clear line of demarcation in the FCS/D2/D3 levels.  With the FBS semis, it's a bit harder to decide if these scores are functions of team talent/coaching gaps or a function of any of the who-knows-what happens when you take a month off between games.  In the tournament divisions, you don't get the time off which I think is a better way of doing this business. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

jknezek

There were some truly pitiful FBS games this weekend. But I enjoyed the TCU game and the Penn State game. Other than that, kind of a dud. Oklahoma was a disappointment, Michigan St was about as competitive as I expected. Iowa was ugly, much to my brother-in-law's dismay (he's an Iowa grad). Michigan killing FL was interesting if not entertaining. Ohio St - Notre Dame should have been better. But yeah, it's an odd system and I think what FBS feared is coming to pass. All the casual fans care about are the semifinal games and the rest of the bowls are more time fillers. But I'd rather watch the time fillers than most of what else is on TV...

AO

Quote from: jknezek on January 04, 2016, 09:57:19 AM
Here's an interesting set of numbers:

D1 Semifinals
Alabama 38 - 0 Michigan State
Clemson 37- 17 Oklahoma

FCS Semifinals
Jacksonville St 58 - Charleston Southern 38
North Dakota St 23 - UNI 13

D2 Semifinals
N'west Mo St  38 -- 23 West Georgia
Shepherd 34 -- Grand Valley St 32

D3 Semifinals
Mount Union 36 - 6 UWW
St. Thomas 38 - 17 Linfield

Only one of these games was a really good game, and the winner of that game was shellacked in the finals (DII -- Shepherd got creamed). Otherwise, not one other semifinal was within one score. Interesting how that happened this year, but it seems like throughout college football the finalist teams are a significant cut above everyone else.
Those were the FCS quarters.  The Semis were bigger blowouts. 
Jacksonville State 62-10 Sam Houston State
NDSU 33-7 Richmond.

A lot of blowouts, but the teams are close enough in talent that if they played again, they might not be blowouts.  Personally, I could watch Iowa getting stomped all day. :D

wally_wabash

There are obviously too many of these games.  But if we're going to insist on having these games, they need to wrap up the entirety of the undercard then let the semis and the championship be the last three games of the season. 

And this Oregonian did NOT enjoy the TCU game.  Buh-rutal.  Not sure how a major FBS team doesn't have more than one guy on the roster that can execute a shotgun snap, but Oregon doesn't and they lost because of it. 

Quote from: AO on January 04, 2016, 11:04:06 AM
Those were the FCS quarters.  The Semis were bigger blowouts. 
Jacksonville State 62-10 Sam Houston State
NDSU 33-7 Richmond.

A lot of blowouts, but the teams are close enough in talent that if they played again, they might not be blowouts.  Personally, I could watch Iowa getting stomped all day. :D

Interestingly, Iowa is playing NDSU next year for reasons that make, like, negative sense.  I understand that the Iowa AD is a NDSU grad (or vice versa), but that's a no-win situation for Iowa.  Win (by whatever margin), and nobody cares.  Lose, and you're the new Michigan from the Michigan/App State debacle.  Not smart. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

jknezek

Quote from: AO on January 04, 2016, 11:04:06 AM
Quote from: jknezek on January 04, 2016, 09:57:19 AM
Here's an interesting set of numbers:

D1 Semifinals
Alabama 38 - 0 Michigan State
Clemson 37- 17 Oklahoma

FCS Semifinals
Jacksonville St 58 - Charleston Southern 38
North Dakota St 23 - UNI 13

D2 Semifinals
N'west Mo St  38 -- 23 West Georgia
Shepherd 34 -- Grand Valley St 32

D3 Semifinals
Mount Union 36 - 6 UWW
St. Thomas 38 - 17 Linfield

Only one of these games was a really good game, and the winner of that game was shellacked in the finals (DII -- Shepherd got creamed). Otherwise, not one other semifinal was within one score. Interesting how that happened this year, but it seems like throughout college football the finalist teams are a significant cut above everyone else.
Those were the FCS quarters.  The Semis were bigger blowouts. 
Jacksonville State 62-10 Sam Houston State
NDSU 33-7 Richmond.

A lot of blowouts, but the teams are close enough in talent that if they played again, they might not be blowouts.  Personally, I could watch Iowa getting stomped all day. :D

I thought those FCS scores weren't what I remembered. +K for the correction. As for Iowa, I really don't care, but my B-I-L sure does!

AO

Quote from: wally_wabash on January 04, 2016, 11:14:12 AM
Interestingly, Iowa is playing NDSU next year for reasons that make, like, negative sense.  I understand that the Iowa AD is a NDSU grad (or vice versa), but that's a no-win situation for Iowa.  Win (by whatever margin), and nobody cares.  Lose, and you're the new Michigan from the Michigan/App State debacle.  Not smart.
Any non-conference game against an bottom half team in the FBS is a no-win situation.  Nobody is impressed with beating North Texas.  You at least get better by playing NDSU.

Ralph Turner

As an SEC fan, the Alabama Mich State game was totally what I expected.

I may have SEC blinders on, but I think that Urban Meyer beat Alabama last year by playing knowing how to play SEC-football.

I don't think that MSU was quite ready for an SEC opponent of Alabama's caliber.

Alabama Clemson should be fun!

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 08, 2016, 05:24:46 PM
As an SEC fan, the Alabama Mich State game was totally what I expected.

I may have SEC blinders on, but I think that Urban Meyer beat Alabama last year by playing knowing how to play SEC-football.

I don't think that MSU was quite ready for an SEC opponent of Alabama's caliber.

Alabama Clemson should be fun!

Then how do you explain Michigan blowing out Florida far worse than Alabama did?  Jim Harbaugh has no SEC experience.

jknezek

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on January 08, 2016, 07:03:59 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on January 08, 2016, 05:24:46 PM
As an SEC fan, the Alabama Mich State game was totally what I expected.

I may have SEC blinders on, but I think that Urban Meyer beat Alabama last year by playing knowing how to play SEC-football.

I don't think that MSU was quite ready for an SEC opponent of Alabama's caliber.

Alabama Clemson should be fun!

Then how do you explain Michigan blowing out Florida far worse than Alabama did?  Jim Harbaugh has no SEC experience.

Because Harbaugh is a really good coach, Michigan got better almost every week, and the Wolverines had something to prove in that bowl game (yes, everyone else is tired of hearing how good the SEC is and wants to take them down a peg!). Florida, on the other hand, was not that good a team on average (really good defense, really awful offense), and the defense, which absolutely carried them every game this year, had zero desire to play a bowl game all by themselves. They got up for the SEC title game, it was a (very low) chance to make the playoffs, prove a conference point, and win a meaningful trophy. The WhoCares.com bowl was just standing in the way of a veteran and tired defense going pro that knew it would get no help from the offense.

But was the Florida/Michigan game a real indicator of all SEC teams versus all Big10 teams? No. Just the same way AL/Mich State wasn't either. Or the embarrassment for the Big10 that was Iowa in the Rose Bowl. Or the massive difference in quality between the SEC East, which isn't any better than any other Power 5 division in any other conference, and the SEC West, which is, unfortunately, the deepest division in college football.

tigerFanAlso2

SEC East is getting better. when Saban retires East will have a shot at a NC. About five years down the road