Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Warren Thompson

#2461
What is the gain for a venue to jump down from D3 to D2? Wasn't the McMurry experience warning enough for rational people? As well, consider that Westminster (PA) went from NAIA 2 to NCAA 2 and then realized that NCAA 3 was the best fit.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Warren Thompson on July 13, 2018, 06:02:07 PM
What is the gain for a venue to jump down from D3 to D2? Wasn't the McMurry experience warning enough for rational people? As well, consider that Westminster (PA) went from NAIA 2 to NCAA 2 and then realized that NCAA 3 was the best fit.

I think there are parts of the country where Division II teams don't have to travel as much as Division III teams, and that's part of it. I can concede that that is a reasonable rationale for choosing D-II. Texas and the Southeast qualify in that regard, I believe. I believe UT-Tyler will be in a more compact conference in the Gulf South than in the American Southwest.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Pat Coleman on July 13, 2018, 08:43:32 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on July 13, 2018, 06:02:07 PM
What is the gain for a venue to jump down from D3 to D2? Wasn't the McMurry experience warning enough for rational people? As well, consider that Westminster (PA) went from NAIA 2 to NCAA 2 and then realized that NCAA 3 was the best fit.

I think there are parts of the country where Division II teams don't have to travel as much as Division III teams, and that's part of it. I can concede that that is a reasonable rationale for choosing D-II. Texas and the Southeast qualify in that regard, I believe. I believe UT-Tyler will be in a more compact conference in the Gulf South than in the American Southwest.
I was surprised that UTT went with the Gulf South as opposed to the Lone Star Conference.

http://www.lonestarconference.org/sports/2009/12/16/information_history_index.aspx?

Just Bill

Quote from: Warren Thompson on July 13, 2018, 06:02:07 PM
What is the gain for a venue to jump down from D3 to D2? Wasn't the McMurry experience warning enough for rational people? As well, consider that Westminster (PA) went from NAIA 2 to NCAA 2 and then realized that NCAA 3 was the best fit.

Many schools can also actually end up offering less financial aid as a whole. Rather than giving out $20K in academic money to a student-athlete, they might be able to give away $8K of athletics money instead and still fill their teams. Financially sound or not, we have seen the proof for years that many student-athletes choose a smaller athletic scholarship over a larger academic package, because the label of "scholarship athlete" proves strong. So in some specific cases moving to D2 can be a money saver.
"That seems silly and pointless..." - Hoops Fan

The first and still most accurate description of the D3 Championship BeltTM thread.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

I'm not sure I agree with that, JustBill. I have heard of plenty of SAs who may pick the school with more academic money option instead. Hear it often, actually. Some just understand that there is more to consider, especially after college, than getting an "athletic scholarship."

I am not disagreeing it doesn't happen. I know of my fair share of stories of those who think whatever they get ... "athletic scholarship" has some meaning behind it over academic money. It happens. I know that. I just feel I've heard just as many stories, obviously in DIII, where the SA chose the school for the academic help over the athletic numbers (sometimes the academic money gets them into the school they wanted to really go to versus just having some kind of schooling paid for in general).

I always heed the words Dan Dutcher shared with me once ... there are 22.5-times more money in academic scholarships in the NCAA (the entire NCAA) than there is in athletic scholarships.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Just Bill

#2466
Well neither of us said it only happens one way or the other, so the only thing we're debating is how much it happens. I didn't really try to quantify it, other than saying "many" and you're going the other way with "plenty". We're not exactly breaking down data here. I'm going to say we can both be right, since we're both being pretty inexact. In this case, some take the academic money, some take the athletic money. I think that's fair (although not really breaking news).

I can't quantify any of it, but I know that a number of D-III coaches lament the kids who could have had a better package at a D-III school, but opted for the D-II or D-I school in part for the status of being a scholarship athlete. I'm certain nearly every D-III coach in the country can relate having that experience at some point.

I do know that Benedictine in particular believes they will actually end up distributing less financial aid in total with this move. Part of that is because BU has typically given out a ton of financial aid relative to their peers, and they are going through a process to reign that in. That's a much bigger process than moving to D-II, but the move to D-II is a small part of that larger restructuring of financial aid.
"That seems silly and pointless..." - Hoops Fan

The first and still most accurate description of the D3 Championship BeltTM thread.

Pat Coleman

I can see where Dave would have that perspective. Neither of us really talks to D-II players. We talk to the D-III people, and that's why we hear those kinds of stories.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

I will say, I hear in NJ the argument they lose players to DII all of the time because of "athletic scholarships." It is a pretty common conversation I have with coaches and others in New Jersey. That said, I hear the opposite more often the rest of the country.

And yeah... I don't talk to many in DII... I can only hold on to so much content. :)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Ron Boerger

There's also the consideration that there are SAs who will qualify for an athletic scholarship who would not qualify for an academic scholarship.   Those students likely would not have gone to a D3 in the first place due to out-of-pocket cost [don't forget more D2s are public, so in-state tuition is also lower] or failure to meet admission standards. 

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Ron Boerger on July 16, 2018, 08:44:05 AM
There's also the consideration that there are SAs who will qualify for an athletic scholarship who would not qualify for an academic scholarship.   Those students likely would not have gone to a D3 in the first place due to out-of-pocket cost [don't forget more D2s are public, so in-state tuition is also lower] or failure to meet admission standards.
Part of the thinking for McMurry to go D-2 was that it would carve a niche as the only fottball-playing private D-2 in the state. McMurry got some outstanding student athletes, especially female, who were getting a full academic ride on their athletic scholarship and playing sports.

Oline89

Coming from PA, I have the DII v DIII debate on a regular basis.  I have always contended that if you can meet the academic standards of a "better" D3 school, then the money that most athletes would receive from a DIII school would offset the scholarship money (especially a partial scholarship) provided by most  DII schools. That being said,  I just a discussion with a dad of twin female soccer players.  His girls were set to go to a school in the Centennial Conference, but then received a partial scholarship from a DII program.  The difference in tuition between a deep discount (over 50%) from the Centennial school was still $10,000 more than the partial scholarship from the DII school.   

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on July 15, 2018, 09:37:51 PM
I will say, I hear in NJ the argument they lose players to DII all of the time because of "athletic scholarships." It is a pretty common conversation I have with coaches and others in New Jersey. That said, I hear the opposite more often the rest of the country.

Talk to the MIAA folks. They complain about it all the time in America's High-Five.

You guys are focusing upon D2 as to whether or not the allure of an athletic scholarship represents a recruiting threat to D3 teams, but let's not forget that the issue also holds true with the NAIA as the threat -- even though partial scholies in the NAIA can be quite miniscule. I've heard numerous comments from D3 coaches in Chicagoland over the years that recruiting competition from NAIA was a real thing. I think that it's even worse in Indiana and Michigan. It should be pointed out, though, that NAIA schools tend to be cheaper in terms of tuition, anyway.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


You also have the public-private differences, too.  Public schools in some states don't have any leeway whatsoever when it comes to academic scholarships - students qualify on a chart, based on their grades and test scores and that's what they get anywhere they go - sometimes athletic scholarships are the only thing some schools have over others.  I don't know which states in particular this applies to (I know it's true in NJ, but they don't have any state d2s, so the conversation is moot there), but it is a real issue they have to consider some places.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

smedindy

At CWU all students can apply for academic scholarships (and our department has teamed with Financial Aid to streamline the flow of scholarship application and approval based on criteria that usually spurs from the wishes of the donor - A Business Major with over a 3.0 who is from Clark or Lewis County, for example). I'm surprised they don't have that option in NJ. Donors can't endow scholarships at the NJ publics?

We have athletes definitely taking a partial athletics scholarship, a tuition waiver, and another scholarship to pay for college - especially for soccer, track, baseball, and softball.