Author Topic: Future of Division III  (Read 502569 times)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2310 on: October 06, 2017, 05:37:17 pm »
Per my comment about "average" in terms of endowment, it was a general use of the term. From what I see in endowments when I have done my research, Colorado College's numbers come in around where most seem to fall or in the middle of the extremes. I am not doing the hard math to find that number, but in my observations their endowment is about average - thus in the middle or there abouts to most endowments I have seen.

Again, though, there is more than one type of average. There's mean average, median average, and mode average. Mean average is what you're using: Add up all of the endowments of D3 schools and divide by the number of D3 schools. And that's misleading, because the endowments of the 23 schools in D3 that have endowments in the billions completely distort the mean. Mode average -- the number that appears most commonly among all of the D3 endowment numbers -- is obviously irrelevant. What I'm arguing is that the median average -- the endowment that is right in the middle of all 440-odd D3 endowment numbers -- is the pertinent one. And that median average is far, far less than $683m.

F'rinstance, of the 54 schools in D3's Central Region, there are a grand total of three -- Chicago, Wash U, and Grinnell -- that have endowments larger than Colorado College's. The next largest, that of Wheaton, is only 57% the size of Colorado College's. And of the 49 schools in the West Region, only Caltech, Pomona (as a stand-alone), Carleton, and Macalester have endowments bigger than Colorado College's. And if we use Colorado College's own region, the South, of the 60 other members of the region besides Colorado College, only five -- Emory, Washington & Lee, Trinity (TX), Berea, and Berry -- have larger endowments than Colorado College's.

As you can see by the latest NACUBO list, most D3 schools have endowments smaller than $150m, and a large percentage of them have endowments that are only in eight figures to the left of the decimal point.

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/EndowmentFiles/2016-Endowment-Market-Values.pdf

Thus my point is I don't think just because they have $670+ million dollars in endowment is the reason they can travel. I again point out that I have seen schools with far more money in endowments who can barely keep an athletics department up and running. I get all the reasons for those endowments not necessarily affecting athletics which strengthens my point that the size of endowments don't necessarily equate to athletic spending or success. Heck, I have seen some endowments FAR lower than I expected for an institution whose athletics teams are very successful.

I'm not saying that the proportion of unrestricted endowment money to total endowment money is the same at every school. But I'm very willing to bet that that's generally the case. Whether schools choose to devote as much money to their annual athletics budget as they are capable of devoting is another matter entirely, and that's as much driven by administrative philosophy and school culture as it is endowment, if not more. What I'm saying is that the likelihood of a large amount of unrestricted endowment money being available to Colorado College is far better than the likelihood that most other D3 schools would have it.

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Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2311 on: October 06, 2017, 06:52:20 pm »
Don't want to belabor endowment figures too much, but d-mac, you've apparently been hanging out too much with UAA types if you think Colorado College's endowment is even remotely close to typical for D3! 8-)

The data Greg linked to is for colleges in the US and Canada, only perhaps 200-250 of which are D3 schools.  The 815 schools in their data set had a mean of $640 million, but a median of only $120 million - like most income and wealth datasets there is a huge (excuse me, YUGE! ;D) positive skew, with a few extremely high values pulling the mean WAY up.  For this dataset, Harvard alone pulls the mean up by $43 million over what it would be if Harvard was at the median!  For the D3 schools, Chicago, WashU, and Emory combine for about $20 billion (probably about equaling the lowest 125-150 D3 schools combined) - I don't have the numbers to prove it, but I suspect the D3 endowment world is about the same skew as for the schools as a whole.  Colorado College's endowment may be roughly the MEAN D3 endowment; it is probably at least 5 times the MEDIAN endowment.

Offline smedindy

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2312 on: October 07, 2017, 01:44:19 pm »
A lot of D-3 schools are reliant on tuition or church support more than endowment.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2313 on: October 07, 2017, 11:32:31 pm »
Don't want to belabor endowment figures too much, but d-mac, you've apparently been hanging out too much with UAA types if you think Colorado College's endowment is even remotely close to typical for D3! 8-)

The data Greg linked to is for colleges in the US and Canada, only perhaps 200-250 of which are D3 schools.  The 815 schools in their data set had a mean of $640 million, but a median of only $120 million - like most income and wealth datasets there is a huge (excuse me, YUGE! ;D) positive skew, with a few extremely high values pulling the mean WAY up.  For this dataset, Harvard alone pulls the mean up by $43 million over what it would be if Harvard was at the median!  For the D3 schools, Chicago, WashU, and Emory combine for about $20 billion (probably about equaling the lowest 125-150 D3 schools combined) - I don't have the numbers to prove it, but I suspect the D3 endowment world is about the same skew as for the schools as a whole.  Colorado College's endowment may be roughly the MEAN D3 endowment; it is probably at least 5 times the MEDIAN endowment.

No... I did an endowment breakdown of three conference in the Mid-Atlantic Region last year for a project I was tasked... Colorado College's numbers call right in the middle. Not one of those schools was a UAA school (one was a former UAA school, yes). And the biggest number on the list was not Johns Hopkins (if memory serves; I think I still have the pad around here somewhere). Believe it or not, there were a lot of schools I expected higher endowments and their numbers were far lower.
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Online Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2314 on: October 08, 2017, 08:53:46 am »
Greg's list only had three of the ASC 13 core members.

Offline Ron Boerger

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2315 on: October 08, 2017, 06:25:22 pm »
Greg's list only had three of the ASC 13 core members.

True; schools can opt out (or have to opt in).  According to other sources

Belhaven $6.0 **
Concordia $13.3
ETBU $56.2 **
HSU   $165.2 **
HPU   $52.2 **
Letourneau $20.0 *
LC $34.6**
UMHB $75.0 **
McM   $72.6 *
Ozarks $92.6 *
Sul Ross $17.1
UT Dallas $436.2**
UT Tyler $76.1**

* - NACUBO study
** - US News & World Report
otherwise "Google <xxx> endowment"

No $700M endowments there.  I have looked at D3 endowments quite a bit over the years and concur with those who say that number is way high for the typical school.

Online Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2316 on: October 09, 2017, 11:38:34 am »
Greg's list only had three of the ASC 13 core members.

True; schools can opt out (or have to opt in).  According to other sources

Belhaven $6.0 **
Concordia $13.3
ETBU $56.2 **
HSU   $165.2 **
HPU   $52.2 **
Letourneau $20.0 *
LC $34.6**
UMHB $75.0 **
McM   $72.6 *
Ozarks $92.6 *
Sul Ross $17.1
UT Dallas $436.2**
UT Tyler $76.1**

* - NACUBO study
** - US News & World Report
otherwise "Google <xxx> endowment"

No $700M endowments there.  I have looked at D3 endowments quite a bit over the years and concur with those who say that number is way high for the typical school.
I think that  UTD has some old Texas Instruments money from the patents in the1970's and 1980's.

Offline Just Bill

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2317 on: October 20, 2017, 08:09:48 am »
Bob Jones University intends to apply for Division III membership.

http://www.bjubruins.com/news/2017/10/17/general-bruins-athletics-to-pursue-ncaa-d3-membership.aspx
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Offline Hawks88

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2318 on: October 20, 2017, 09:01:43 am »
Another one for the USA South?

Offline jknezek

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2319 on: October 20, 2017, 09:25:45 am »
Another one for the USA South?

Can't imagine who else would take them, but the USA South doesn't need another member. On the other hand, might be another step toward the USASAC adding Track though.

Offline Scots13

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2320 on: October 20, 2017, 10:45:22 am »
Another one for the USA South?

Can't imagine who else would take them, but the USA South doesn't need another member. On the other hand, might be another step toward the USASAC adding Track though.

I wouldn't be shocked if the USAC sent an invitation to Bob Jones. Ferrum is leaving for the ODAC, so might as well keep the membership numbers at 19  ::).

With Ferrum leaving, the conference break down is as follows for 2018:
Agnes Scott, Averett, Berea, Brevard, Covenant, Greensboro, Huntingdon, LaGrange, Mary Baldwin, Maryville, Meredith, Methodist, NCWC, Pfeiffer, Piedmont, Salem, Wesleyan, William Peace.

GA: 5
NC: 8
VA: 2
TN: 1
KY: 1
AL: 1

Gone are the days of the USAC predominately spanning Virginia and NC. There has been a push over the recent years to pick up the old GSAC schools (Maryville included). If Bob Jones is invited and accepts membership into the USAC, the conference would span 7 states. The only saving grace for BJU is they're located in Greenville, SC on I-85.

8 of the 18 schools currently sponsor football. I wonder what the chances are for those 8 schools to split off and form their own conference. Realizing some of the 8 sponsor some sports that others do not (like lacrosse), I think it would be much easier for those schools with both football and lacrosse to be associate members of the lacrosse/track/whatever sponsoring conference.

If that does happen (new conference, that is) I would like to know what the name would be. USAC was once the Dixie. Can't do that anymore. Southeastern Conference, Big South, Southland, and Southern Conference are DI. South Atlantic,  Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference are DII.
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Offline FCGrizzliesGrad

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2321 on: October 20, 2017, 11:21:33 am »
If that does happen (new conference, that is) I would like to know what the name would be. USAC was once the Dixie. Can't do that anymore. Southeastern Conference, Big South, Southland, and Southern Conference are DI. South Atlantic,  Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference are DII.
Those 8 football schools are only in 5 states so just stick all the states in the name. We have the WIAC, MIAC, IIAC, CCIW, OAC, SCIAC, MIAA, NJAC, MASCAC, etc so VANGT Conference or Virginia, Alabama, North carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee Conference ;D
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Offline Scots13

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2322 on: October 20, 2017, 11:32:09 am »
If that does happen (new conference, that is) I would like to know what the name would be. USAC was once the Dixie. Can't do that anymore. Southeastern Conference, Big South, Southland, and Southern Conference are DI. South Atlantic,  Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference are DII.
Those 8 football schools are only in 5 states so just stick all the states in the name. We have the WIAC, MIAC, IIAC, CCIW, OAC, SCIAC, MIAA, NJAC, MASCAC, etc so VANGT Conference or Virginia, Alabama, North carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee Conference ;D

+k for the comic relief!

That's shedding some light on the issue we have in D3 in the South. Texas by far has the most D3 schools in any one state, but Texas is so big is doesn't really help!
In terms of football sponsoring schools, Alabama has 2, GA has 2, TN has 3 (Sewanee and Maryville are less than 3 hours away, but Rhodes in Memphis is a much longer drive), KY has 2, MS has 2, AR has 1, SC has 0. Virginia and NC are really the only 2 southern states with a decent number of D3 football teams.
NAIA is still "dominate" in regards to number of member schools playing football in the South, especially in TN and KY.
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Offline Gray Fox

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2323 on: October 20, 2017, 11:49:19 am »
Bob Jones University intends to apply for Division III membership.

http://www.bjubruins.com/news/2017/10/17/general-bruins-athletics-to-pursue-ncaa-d3-membership.aspx
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Online Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2324 on: October 20, 2017, 11:54:26 am »
Bob Jones University intends to apply for Division III membership.

http://www.bjubruins.com/news/2017/10/17/general-bruins-athletics-to-pursue-ncaa-d3-membership.aspx
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