Author Topic: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference  (Read 1841220 times)

Offline ColbyFootball

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12855 on: October 12, 2017, 10:41:47 am »
I think criticizing Harriman is pretty unfair, in light of his overall record.  Before Harriman, Bates was 2-53-1 in the preceeding seven seasons (under two different coaches).  Harriman won more games than that (5) in  his first two years.  Harriman very recently led Bates to three year stretch of 13-11, which may not seem remarkable but is certainly respectable and was Bates' best three season stretch since 1982.  There is definitely no way to be sure that any other coach would do significantly better in light of the programmatic constraints / history discussed elsewhere.

As for Bates' struggles so far this year, I wonder if part of the issue, especially when compared to Middlebury's recent run of excellence, is that (I believe) high schools are increasingly moving away from the triple option in favor of the spread attack favored by Midd.  Could it be that there just aren't as many talented players (especially QBs) to recruit who are natural fits as triple option players as there were when that was the dominant high school offense, and that there are a lot more spread QBs and WRs to choose from?  Just throwing it out there as a theory ... in all events, Bates could well still salvage the season with a few CBB wins.
The triple option may very well play into recruiting. Most programs nowadays run spread, rather than triple option, so the available talent pool is likely much smaller. And a kid playing in a HS spread O would probably want to continue in that system, although some wouldn't care at all. In short, I do agree it's probably a factor.

Offline middpantherpride

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12856 on: October 12, 2017, 10:42:52 am »
Nescac1... I think you are onto something... It's hard to quantify... but I think the Midd offense is a big pull in luring top notch QBs and WRs to midd... Although, Trinity, Amherst, Williams, and Wesleyan do not seem to have a problem luring incredible athletes. I think your point is relevant given the geographical similarities between Vermont and Maine (far away from big civilization).

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12857 on: October 12, 2017, 10:58:57 am »
In the NESCAC recruiting QBs  to Middlebury is like recruiting RBs to USC or Linebackers to Penn St.
Ritter has had a phenomenal legacy of all conference QBs and right now has 2 or 3 easy NESCAC starters riding the pine.
In the NESCAC Midd is QB U.

Offline PolarCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12858 on: October 12, 2017, 12:48:46 pm »
I think the issue is even bigger recruiting WR's to the Triple Option.  If you're a good WR, why come to a school that seldom throws the ball?  When the best WR's go elsewhere, you get kids who struggle to get separation, making it even less likely you'll throw to them.  And when your OC runs the ball on first down, runs on second down, and then is faced with 3rd and 10, it's even harder for your WR's to get separation.  3 and out, punt, rinse and repeat.  A vicious cycle.  You need a completely different offensive scheme - and probably a different OC - to break that cycle.

Offline Grabowski

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12859 on: October 12, 2017, 06:52:17 pm »
I think you all are generally right about WRs and the option offense, tho didn't Calvin Johnson go to GA Tech when they were running it?  But if we concede it's a bad way to recruit WRs, it should be a good way to recruit athletic QBs, hard running FBs, and RBs that like the ball in space.  Not to mention O linemen that like to drive block and be aggressive.

Sounds to me like the bigger issue is an identity crisis.  Didn't someone say 40+ passes in a recent game?  That would suggest weak commitment to the option maybe?  Could not believe that two wins in 8 years stat pre-Harriman!!!  What misery...

Offline PolarCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12860 on: October 12, 2017, 07:07:08 pm »
In my opinion, the last QB who really ran the option well at Bates was Matt Cannone in 2014.  The QB's since then have been square pegs jammed into round holes.  The "Identity Crisis" is someone finally waking up and realizing "Hey, this hasn't worked for us in a long time.  Maybe we should mix it up some."  FY QB Brendan Costa has shown that he has an arm, and the ability to (usually) read the field well.  He's a darn good QB, but doesn't have that stud WR to go to.  And he still throws the occasional pick, while he adjusts to the college game.

I think most of us Bobcats fans are THRILLED to see them airing it out more.  If nothing else, the drives are longer, there are fewer three-and-outs, the defense is better rested, and there should be more work for the kicker and less for the punter.  Hopefully, that trend will continue.  Though maybe not this Saturday.

Offline Nescacman

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12861 on: October 12, 2017, 07:45:55 pm »
Mark Harriman is a fine human being.  It's impossible to dislike the guy.  And it's next-to-impossible to evaluate his coaching ability, since the Administration handcuffs him with a budget too small to even afford decent uniforms, let alone qualified assistants and coordinators.  In my opinion, Harriman's actually done a remarkable job, given the hand he's been dealt.  The boys have won 3 straight CBB's, despite the types of coordinators Colby's been able to afford, and Bowdoin's recent investment in the Wells program.

The Bobcats are the Jamaican Bobsled Team of the CAC.  Bates' new AD seems to understand the challenges, but unless Clayton Spencer signs on and opens up the checkbook, things are unlikely to change.

In the face of all that internal adversity, the players adopt an "it's us against the world" mentality.  They don't whine about it, they just try to rise above it.  Maybe a better life lesson than playing in a program that has the best of everything, though it can be frustrating as a parent and fan.  If my kid doesn't bitch, I figure I don't have the right to.

My 2 cents after 3 1/2 seasons of watching the program pretty closely.

Letís Go Yankees! We had to slip that one in for those of you now shifting gears to golf and finding a new manager....

Now on to more germane matters....Here we go again, we are sure Coach Harriman is a really good guy, ďfather of the yearĒ, great American, etc. We actually like him and think that Bates typically plays hard for as long as they can. Thatís not the issue. The reality is he runs a Model T offense in a Porsche GT3 era. The last team to run the triple option and win was ĎBama when Bear Bryant was there (not 100% true but close). To win in college football today (including the NESCAC) you need to spread it out, run no huddle, and go pistol/shotgun almost every play. Yes, you need athletes at the skill positions to run that offense....which brings us to our next point...

Sorry to bring this up to the PC crowd on this Board, but this issue is basically ignored....The Jamaican Bobsled Team? In order to be the Jamaican Bobsled Team would require Bates (and for that matter most other NESCAC schools) to actually add some diversity to their roster in a meaningful way. Maybe then they could actually stop being the Model T of the NESCAC. If you look at the NESCAC schools that have actually embraced diversity in football (Tufts, Amhurst and Wesleyan to name a few), it is no wonder that all 3 are among the top of the heap of the NESCAC....just sayiní...

We have to laugh when we hear people say that NESCAC schools donít have the resources to compete in football. Are you kidding? Every single one of these schools is among the most expensive schools in the country, most around $65k per year all in. And many of them have huge endowments to boot. That argument sort of reminds us of MLB where rich guys like the Wilpons cry poverty. Yes, we know about Madoff but trust us, the Wilpons more than likely have more assets and free cash flow than all of us on this Board combined. The point is, that all of the schools in this league have the resources. The truth is, the Presidents and Trustees at the have nots either donít care about winning, donít care about football, or both. Itís all about allocation of resources...and for those that are a bit more intrepid, we know of at least 4 programs in this league where alumni provide incremental NCAA allowable support to allow the student/athletes to have the niceties that make a difference...coaches that donít take advantage of their alumni (and parents) are either lazy, stupid, or both...

Lastly, as far as adding a 10th game...forget it. It took 46 years to get a 9th game. There is a much better chance of having the NESCAC champ play in the D3 play-offs. That is what we should all be advocating for...

Picks to follow by tomorrow...

Offline JEFFFAN

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12862 on: October 12, 2017, 09:09:27 pm »
Mark Harriman is a fine human being.  It's impossible to dislike the guy.  And it's next-to-impossible to evaluate his coaching ability, since the Administration handcuffs him with a budget too small to even afford decent uniforms, let alone qualified assistants and coordinators.  In my opinion, Harriman's actually done a remarkable job, given the hand he's been dealt.  The boys have won 3 straight CBB's, despite the types of coordinators Colby's been able to afford, and Bowdoin's recent investment in the Wells program.

The Bobcats are the Jamaican Bobsled Team of the CAC.  Bates' new AD seems to understand the challenges, but unless Clayton Spencer signs on and opens up the checkbook, things are unlikely to change.

In the face of all that internal adversity, the players adopt an "it's us against the world" mentality.  They don't whine about it, they just try to rise above it.  Maybe a better life lesson than playing in a program that has the best of everything, though it can be frustrating as a parent and fan.  If my kid doesn't bitch, I figure I don't have the right to.

My 2 cents after 3 1/2 seasons of watching the program pretty closely.

Letís Go Yankees! We had to slip that one in for those of you now shifting gears to golf and finding a new manager....

Now on to more germane matters....Here we go again, we are sure Coach Harriman is a really good guy, ďfather of the yearĒ, great American, etc. We actually like him and think that Bates typically plays hard for as long as they can. Thatís not the issue. The reality is he runs a Model T offense in a Porsche GT3 era. The last team to run the triple option and win was ĎBama when Bear Bryant was there (not 100% true but close). To win in college football today (including the NESCAC) you need to spread it out, run no huddle, and go pistol/shotgun almost every play. Yes, you need athletes at the skill positions to run that offense....which brings us to our next point...

Sorry to bring this up to the PC crowd on this Board, but this issue is basically ignored....The Jamaican Bobsled Team? In order to be the Jamaican Bobsled Team would require Bates (and for that matter most other NESCAC schools) to actually add some diversity to their roster in a meaningful way. Maybe then they could actually stop being the Model T of the NESCAC. If you look at the NESCAC schools that have actually embraced diversity in football (Tufts, Amhurst and Wesleyan to name a few), it is no wonder that all 3 are among the top of the heap of the NESCAC....just sayiní...

We have to laugh when we hear people say that NESCAC schools donít have the resources to compete in football. Are you kidding? Every single one of these schools is among the most expensive schools in the country, most around $65k per year all in. And many of them have huge endowments to boot. That argument sort of reminds us of MLB where rich guys like the Wilpons cry poverty. Yes, we know about Madoff but trust us, the Wilpons more than likely have more assets and free cash flow than all of us on this Board combined. The point is, that all of the schools in this league have the resources. The truth is, the Presidents and Trustees at the have nots either donít care about winning, donít care about football, or both. Itís all about allocation of resources...and for those that are a bit more intrepid, we know of at least 4 programs in this league where alumni provide incremental NCAA allowable support to allow the student/athletes to have the niceties that make a difference...coaches that donít take advantage of their alumni (and parents) are either lazy, stupid, or both...

Lastly, as far as adding a 10th game...forget it. It took 46 years to get a 9th game. There is a much better chance of having the NESCAC champ play in the D3 play-offs. That is what we should all be advocating for...

Picks to follow by tomorrow...

You got it nailed, Nescacman.  This conference has higher endowments per student than any other conference in America other than the Ivies and even then the NESCAC schools are comparable to some of the lower Ivies.  Plenty, plenty, plenty of capital.   Its whether the president, the Board, and the alumni care enough about the sport, said care to come in the form - on the part of alumni - in the form of giving.   No money, no pressure, no funding for the large money sports like football.   You spoke the truth on this one.


Offline PolarCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12863 on: October 12, 2017, 10:47:09 pm »
The Bobcats are the Jamaican Bobsled Team of the CAC.  Bates' new AD seems to understand the challenges, but unless Clayton Spencer signs on and opens up the checkbook, things are unlikely to change.

C'mon NESCACMAN, your reading comprehension is not as bad as you pretend.  No one said Bates doesn't have the resources.  We've all been saying Clayton Spencer won't spend those resources on football.  See my quote above.  Anything you can do to put pressure on her to do so would be most appreciated, but in the interim, don't spin others' comments.

Diversity?  Yeah, maybe.  By my count, there are 12 African-American players on the Bobcats' roster, which is, what, 16% of the team?  That may be a level of diversity greater than Maine as a whole.  100% of the captains are African-American, as is the student body president, who is a DL.  Would I love to see more?  ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY.  I'd also love to see more Asian-Americans, Latino's, LGBT players, Druids, Eskimos and Leprechauns if they were good players.  Most importantly, I'd like to see so many talented kids show up for pre-season that Harriman or his successor actually has to make cuts to get down to 76.

I think everyone here understood my Jamaican Bobsled team comment, and the way it was intended,  No need to spin it so you can take a gratuitous swipe at the program.

Offline PolarCat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12864 on: October 12, 2017, 11:04:12 pm »
Question for the Trinity folks on here: What is Devaney's red shirt policy?

The reason I ask is I just saw that one of my son's prep school teammates is on the Bants' roster.  He is a 2018.  Didn't make the team in 2014, 2015, or 2016.  Yet there he is in the roster his senior year.  As far as I can tell from the stats on the website, he hasn't played a snap, but he's on the roster. 

Is that SOP for Devanney?  Is a kid that doesn't make the team as a FY encouraged to come back every year and keep trying?  (Seems kind of unfair to all the kids who were recruited and cut).

Offline lumbercat

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12865 on: October 13, 2017, 12:43:36 am »
Quote Nescacman:

Sorry to bring this up to the PC crowd on this Board, but this issue is basically ignored....The Jamaican Bobsled Team? In order to be the Jamaican Bobsled Team would require Bates (and for that matter most other NESCAC schools) to actually add some diversity to their roster in a meaningful way. Maybe then they could actually stop being the Model T of the NESCAC. If you look at the NESCAC schools that have actually embraced diversity in football (Tufts, Amhurst and Wesleyan to name a few), it is no wonder that all 3 are among the top of the heap of the NESCAC....just sayiní...


Nescaman-

Can't believe you interpreted Polarcats  reference of the Jamaican Bobsled team in terms of anything to do with diversity or ethnicity--- he was simply citing them as an extreme underdog...... you made that leap........
I would suggest you do your homework before you make any implications about diversity relative to Bates College. Bates was founded by abolitionists and has been a leader in the Nescac in diversity and fairness to all groups. They admitted Minority students and athletes when their Nescac peers were still segregated. Bates has been a pioneer in diversity, its well documented and continues today. Your comments there are narrow and misinformed--- stick to the gridiron.
You blew this one bad- get your facts straight.



« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 01:28:53 am by lumbercat »

Offline westcoastDad

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12866 on: October 13, 2017, 01:08:34 am »
Speaking of the Jamaican Bobsled team roflol........Has there every been an African American Quarterback in the NESCAC that actually started for a whole season?  I saw the only African American coach (for Williams) has come and gone.  Amherst had an amazing PK a few years ago who was bigger than most of the kids on the team but only kicked extra points and field goals.  But, boy did he convert some clutch kicks his junior year (or maybe that was his senior year 2014). 

D1 football is loaded with dual threat QBs.  NESCAC seems more TB12 style. 

Offline middpantherpride

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12867 on: October 13, 2017, 02:30:53 am »

Speaking of the Jamaican Bobsled team roflol........Has there every been an African American Quarterback in the NESCAC that actually started for a whole season?  I saw the only African American coach (for Williams) has come and gone.  Amherst had an amazing PK a few years ago who was bigger than most of the kids on the team but only kicked extra points and field goals.  But, boy did he convert some clutch kicks his junior year (or maybe that was his senior year 2014). 

D1 football is loaded with dual threat QBs.  NESCAC seems more TB12 style.
[/quote]

WestcoastDad... As a recent grad, I cannot speak to your question about players in the past... Although Wesleyan did have a dual threat kid Gernald Hawkins that started all of 2015 and did fairly well. He also played at QB last year for the Cards. Looks like he got moved to WR based on the roster this year. Not surprising as he was a raw athlete. Never played against him but the kid looked like he could move well.

Although I can't see too many NESCAC QBs looking like TB12... except for his doppleganger Alex Snyder from Tufts last year. Anybody have an update on him?? I saw he had some looks at Rookie camps. Even with the Bucs. Pretty unreal for the kid. Wish him all the best.

The only other one I can say fit that mold was Mac Foote. Jared Lebo at Midd fits more of the dual threat option like a Mariota (based on size, speed, and throwing capacity). At least IMO. Thoughts??

Offline middpantherpride

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12868 on: October 13, 2017, 02:45:51 am »
Other good QBs in the CAC also seem to be dual threat guys... Even Puzzo and Piccirillo seem to be more like traditional college QBs... can throw well but also can tuck and run if need be and sometimes will run QB draws willingly.

I remember Justin Ciero at Colby in 2013 was very effective and could run and throw. Very tough to game plan against. D coordinators worst nightmare.

Offline Nescacman

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Re: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
« Reply #12869 on: October 13, 2017, 04:58:10 am »
The Bobcats are the Jamaican Bobsled Team of the CAC.  Bates' new AD seems to understand the challenges, but unless Clayton Spencer signs on and opens up the checkbook, things are unlikely to change.

C'mon NESCACMAN, your reading comprehension is not as bad as you pretend.  No one said Bates doesn't have the resources.  We've all been saying Clayton Spencer won't spend those resources on football.  See my quote above.  Anything you can do to put pressure on her to do so would be most appreciated, but in the interim, don't spin others' comments.

Diversity?  Yeah, maybe.  By my count, there are 12 African-American players on the Bobcats' roster, which is, what, 16% of the team?  That may be a level of diversity greater than Maine as a whole.  100% of the captains are African-American, as is the student body president, who is a DL.  Would I love to see more?  ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY.  I'd also love to see more Asian-Americans, Latino's, LGBT players, Druids, Eskimos and Leprechauns if they were good players.  Most importantly, I'd like to see so many talented kids show up for pre-season that Harriman or his successor actually has to make cuts to get down to 76.

I think everyone here understood my Jamaican Bobsled team comment, and the way it was intended,  No need to spin it so you can take a gratuitous swipe at the program.

Hey Polar, no need for us to take gratuitous swipes at the 2017 edition of the University of Bates Bobcats football squad. The facts speak for themselves...they just plain stink. How about we take Wesleyan -40 this Saturday and call it even? Colbyfootball already owes us after Wes covered against the Mules....no doubt in our mind that Wes makes it 2 for 2 this Saturday as they make their annual march through the college football wasteland known as the C-B-B.