WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by wheatonc, March 03, 2005, 06:18:19 PM

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Gregory Sager

Quote from: Titan Q on December 03, 2019, 07:26:39 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 03, 2019, 03:45:15 PM
Quote from: Titan Q on December 03, 2019, 07:40:04 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on December 02, 2019, 11:50:52 PM
Sorry, Bob, but I don't buy it. There are three officials calling the game, not one. The official at center court was negligent for not looking back while retreating upcourt after a made basket, but all Mia had to do was turn around and make her timeout call to the trailing official, who had been stationed on the baseline and was now walking directly towards her.

I'm not really sure what is not to buy.

Had any of the 3 officials been looking to the bench they would have seen her calling the T.O.  Literally none of the 3 is looking to the bench.  Isn't it a responsibility of one of the officials in a crew to be checking for timeouts during a dead ball situation (immediately after a basket)...especially in the final minute of a tight game?  Are coaches supposed to know exactly which of the 3 officials to seek out and find for a timeout call at every moment of the game?

She called a timeout in plenty of time to have it granted, and it was clearly visible to anyone in the gym who would have been looking at the IWU bench.  But none of the 3 officials was paying any attention to it.  That has to be a mistake on the part of the crew.

I don't think Mia was right to get on the floor, but the officials made a mistake here.

I disagree. One official made a mistake, and Mia could've easily gotten around that mistake and received her timeout by engaging the trailing ref.

I think that Enginerd hit it on the head -- she fixated on the upcourt official, to her own detriment. And it is true that the trailing official on the baseline was watching the ball during the inbound, which is his job. However, these two conclusions that you drew:

Quote from: Titan Q on December 03, 2019, 07:40:04 AMHad any of the 3 officials been looking to the bench they would have seen her calling the T.O.  Literally none of the 3 is looking to the bench.

... are contradicted by the clip you posted.

When you look at the play again at timestamp 00:01, Mia has started calling and signaling timeout to a ref who has obviously turned around and started heading away from her. But, meanwhile, the trailing ref is looking right at her. He will continue to look at Mia all the way to 00:03, when he swings his head back to check the inbound before swiveling back to look up the floor. But -- and this is the key point -- he's looking at Mia's back, because she's signaling at the upcourt official. He has no way of knowing that she's calling a timeout, because he can't see her signal (or, presumably, hear her) while her back is turned to him. Had he been able to see her signal, he obviously would've granted the timeout.

Mia is well aware of the fact that there are three officials who can invoke a timeout, not one. The first (and only) official whose attention she tried to draw made a mistake by turning his back as he ran up the floor. But she knew full well that there were two other officials, and that there's always one official on the baseline in a halfcourt scenario. All she had to do was turn around and signal to that ref. Even if she had waited to do so until 00:03, as soon as that ref turned his head forward again he would've seen her (which happened at 00:05). After all, the path he is going to travel up the floor will take him past the IWU bench, and in fact by going out onto the floor Mia inadvertently placed herself directly in his path (inadvertently, because she never turned around to try to get that ref's attention).

As far as your first question is concerned, I don't know if officials are specifically instructed to look at the two benches in a dead-ball situation, and if so if all three are to look or if one in particular, given positioning on the floor, has that assignment. Somebody who is familiar with NCAA basketball official training would know. (I'm interested enough by the question that I may actually ask one of the officials tomorrow night in the crackerbox.) But, as I said, one of the officials was looking at her, which makes the point moot in this case. As to your second question, the answer is "yes" in the sense that any of the officials could've granted that timeout. And Mia Smith knows that, which is my whole point. If you're yelling and signaling "Timeout!" at the back of the upcourt ref, who is clearly neither seeing you nor hearing you and who becomes less likely to either see or hear you with each step away from you he takes, the logical response is to turn and engage the ref who at worst will be swinging his head in your direction immediately after making sure that the ball is not inbounded illegally after the made basket, and who will be coming right at you momentarily.

Officials always place themselves in the same spots on the floor during a halfcourt play. That, too, is something that Mia Smith knows. It makes it easy to always know where to look for one in a halfcourt scenario.

One of the most commonplace sights in a basketball game is a head coach signaling and shouting for a timeout in crunch time while pivoting back and forth between refs, to ensure that she/he gains the attention of at least one of them. I have no idea why Mia didn't do that on Sunday.

I've heard from 3 current Division III officials and 4 current head coaches in the last 48 hours (none of which have any tie to IWU) who have all basically said that the officiating crew blew this -- that the official Mia Smith was directing the timeout to had responsibility in that situation for monitoring the benches for timeout calls.  All said Smith did everything right.  As one current Top 25 MBB head coach said, "You have about 2 seconds to make that timeout call and you are clearly instructed to go to the official heading up the floor on the near side."  (There is not time to try one official, get shutout, and then move to the next.)

So on the timeout part of this I'm gonna go with what I have heard from people in the know.

Once they blew the timeout part of it, clearly she was way out on the floor.  Whether they should have T'd her up or acknowledged the mistake and handled it another way is open for debate.  One official said, "Regardless, you have to call the technical."  Another said, "Once I realized we missed a clear timeout I would have got everyone together and made sure we awarded the timeout." 

I am not disputing the T part of this thing.  I'm just saying they blew the part that led to the T.

I understand you see it differently so we can agree to disagree.

Interesting. I talked to three veteran CCIW officials tonight in the crackerbox, and they all told me the opposite -- that no one official has bench-monitoring responsibility at any point during a game, and that Mia Smith should've turned and signaled the timeout to the trailing official as soon as it became apparent to her that the center-court ref wasn't going to respond to her. They also said that, given the game situation, the officiating crew would've almost certainly reset the clock once they understood that her intent was to call a timeout at the dead ball. As one of them said, "It's all about knowing what coaches typically intend to do in late-game situations, and giving them the leeway to do it as far as timeouts are concerned."

(All three of them were also aghast that the officiating crew of the IWU/DPU game let the technical foul stand.)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

RogK

GoPerry, are you sure the 3 pt lines weren't moved in a few feet? That's some amazing productivity from distance by both teams. Augie scored 42 pts from 22 three attempts and Wheaton got 45 pts from 30 3FG att.

RogK

I attended Carthage's 66-49 win at Elmhurst. The Lady Reds sped to a 21-5 1st Q advantage and cruised thereafter.
Autumn Kalis was seasonally excellent, scoring 22 pts from just 13 FG att, adding 8 rebs, 3 assists. Also prominent for Carthage were Maggie Berigan and Kelsey Coshun, each of whom had 10 pts and 7 rebs.
Elmhurst got a dozen points each from Becca Gerke and Lily Greifenstein (her collegiate debut and it was a good one). Sophia Lathe played well in her season debut. The rest of the Bluejays didn't shoot well, some credit to Carthage's defensive efforts.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: RogK on December 05, 2019, 12:44:35 AMElmhurst got a dozen points each from Becca Gerke and Lily Greifenstein (her collegiate debut and it was a good one). Sophia Lathe played well in her season debut.

"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

GoPerry

RogK:  Kristi Demski began the game with 3 straight treys and then Frazier hit another which sped them to a quick 12-0 lead after about 3 or 4 mins.  They continued to pretty much dominate offensively until that 4th Q.  Wheaton had a little trouble with the Vikes full court press, went a little chilly offensively and tried to cruise in defensively by letting Augie shoot from the arc.  Credit them for making a blistering 11-14 to bring them all the way back.

The Thunder are actually a decent 3 pt shooting team.  But I'm not sure taking 30 att/game is their best recipe going forward.

Quote from: RogK on December 05, 2019, 12:44:35 AM
I attended Carthage's 66-49 win at Elmhurst. The Lady Reds sped to a 21-5 1st Q advantage and cruised thereafter.
Autumn Kalis was seasonally excellent, scoring 22 pts from just 13 FG att, adding 8 rebs, 3 assists.

Kalis is a player that does everything well including defend and rebound.  Fills up the box score and just very impressive as a team leader.  Along with Sammie Woodward and Madie Kaelber they make an excellent backcourt.  It's the Lady Reds frontcourt that isn't quite impactful enough to allow them to compete with WC and IWU over the season.  IMHO.

RogK

UChicago topped Elmhurst 80-50 in an early afternoon contest.
Elmhurst got 12 pts 8 rebs from Kween Jean, while Becca Gerke's 11 rebs and 3 assists led those categories for the 'jays.

Titan Q


GoPerry

Wheaton  63
Millikin    66  (OT)

Hannah Williams   17 pts, 5 reb
Hannah Frazier      13 pts, 6 rebs
Kristen Madsen      10 pts, 6 rebs

Jordan Hildebrand   18 pts, 10 rebs
Abby Ratsch      10 pts, 15 rebs
Bailey Coffman      12 pts, 6 rebs

Congratulations to the Big Blue on a big W at home.  Neither team played great and WC was lucky to even get to OT.  But in the end Millikin outplayed/outcoached Wheaton in pretty much all aspects.  They deserved the victory. 

MU is much better than the 8-17 team of last year.  Jordan Hildebrand is the same very tough inside player and dominated the play in the paint.  But the Big Blue are getting very good contributions from some underclassman such as freshman Bailey Coffman, Abby Ratsch, Miranda Fox.  This afternoon they looked legit to compete for a CCIW tourney spot at least.

Very poor game by the Thunder. 

Gregory Sager

North Park 68
North Central 58

Jayla Johnson: 18 pts, 9 rebs
Angelina Villasin: 11 pts

Allison Person: 11 pts
Lyndsay Brennan: 10 pts
Maya Walls: 7 rebs

NPU had a 14-point lead at the half, and it looked like the Vikings were going to cruise to an easy victory. But NCC went into a 2-3 zone and stuck with it, and the Vikings couldn't make the Cardinals pay by knocking down open trey attempts. But the NPU defense was solid enough to keep the Cards from getting any closer than four points, and the hosts finally pulled out of striking distance at the FT line down the stretch.

NPU is now 7-0, 2-0, while NCC falls to 3-5, 0-2.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Looks like our question as to whether or not Millikin is for real has been definitively answered tonight.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

iwu70

MU for real.

IWU over CC 62-61, with Sydney Shanks hitting the game-winning jump shot with 9 seconds left.  Kalis almost unstoppable.

More soon.  Great game, much - needed home win for the TITANS.

'70

iwu70

IWU 62 CC 61

Sosa 16
Shanks, a monster game, 15 and 12
Lansford 12
Brovelli, key to it all, 11 and 10

FT % 46% -- gotta improve this.

For CC:
Kalis 27
Woodward 11

An important home win.  TITANS now 7-2, 2-0.

UW Stevens Point on Monday.  No rest.

IWU'70

RogK

looking at the play-by-play data, we see that Kalis and Sosa each "carried the load" impressively for their teams : Kalis scored 15 in the 4th Q and Sosa tallied 14 over the final 6:05; not bad

RogK

Having attended the NC-NP matchup, I won't add much to what Greg wrote. NP performed well defensively, for example limiting Walls and Dimitrova to 9 pts in a combined 66 minutes.

RogK

Augie got past Carroll, 84-74. Continuing the theme from their 36 pt 4th Q vs Wheaton, Augie again relied successfully on 3pt shooting, making 13 of 26. Carroll similarly made 12 of 25.
Some of the players who did well :
AUG - Alexis Jones 11 pts, 13 rebs, 4 assists, 3 stls; Justice Edell 17 pts (.938 eFG%); Mia Lambert 14 pts, 6 assists; Jeni Crain 11 pts from 11 FGA; Lauren Hall 9 pts, 7 rebs.
CRL - Theresa Wichser 18 pts (.692 eFG%); Kate Christian 12 pts, 3 assists, 3 stls in 15:00.
Do we dare show conference-only standings this early? Yes, we dare :
2-0 IWU NPU
1-0 MIL
1-1 AUG CTG WHE
0-1 ELM
0-2 CRL NCC