MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

Started by sac, February 19, 2005, 11:51:56 AM

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Knight2Day

Quote from: wiz on January 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 30, 2012, 11:43:40 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on December 29, 2012, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: realist on December 29, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
Calvin wins 87-62.  Brink with 27.
Calvin 12/19 on 3's. 63%.

All that and Brink only played 23 minutes. Wonder what would've happened if he would've scratched 28-30.

Calvin would've won if he played 30.
And if he played 40 minutes maybe he could have put in 6 more 3's and beat Todd Hennink's record.  What was coach thinking?

Usually you want your best player on the floor for more than roughly half the game. He was probably too tired though from playing such a rigorous defensive system.

KnightSlappy

Quote from: Knight2Day on January 02, 2013, 10:11:48 AM
Quote from: wiz on January 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 30, 2012, 11:43:40 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on December 29, 2012, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: realist on December 29, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
Calvin wins 87-62.  Brink with 27.
Calvin 12/19 on 3's. 63%.

All that and Brink only played 23 minutes. Wonder what would've happened if he would've scratched 28-30.

Calvin would've won if he played 30.
And if he played 40 minutes maybe he could have put in 6 more 3's and beat Todd Hennink's record.  What was coach thinking?

Usually you want your best player on the floor for more than roughly half the game. He was probably too tired though from playing such a rigorous defensive system.

I understand the tree you're barking up, and I don't disagree with you in general, but there's no reason that Jordan should have played 30 minutes in that game.

realist

Quote from: KnightSlappy on January 02, 2013, 10:38:20 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on January 02, 2013, 10:11:48 AM
Quote from: wiz on January 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 30, 2012, 11:43:40 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on December 29, 2012, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: realist on December 29, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
Calvin wins 87-62.  Brink with 27.
Calvin 12/19 on 3's. 63%.

All that and Brink only played 23 minutes. Wonder what would've happened if he would've scratched 28-30.

Calvin would've won if he played 30.
And if he played 40 minutes maybe he could have put in 6 more 3's and beat Todd Hennink's record.  What was coach thinking?

Usually you want your best player on the floor for more than roughly half the game. He was probably too tired though from playing such a rigorous defensive system.

I understand the tree you're barking up, and I don't disagree with you in general, but there's no reason that Jordan should have played 30 minutes in that game.

I understand the point you are making about Mr. Brink not playing more than 23 minutes.  Can you please shed some light on why one Calvin player did play 30 minutes (in that game)?  Do you think 30 minutes was justified for that player?
"If you are catching flack it means you are over the target".  Brietbart.

oldknight

#35373
Quote from: realist on January 02, 2013, 11:13:14 AM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on January 02, 2013, 10:38:20 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on January 02, 2013, 10:11:48 AM
Quote from: wiz on January 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 30, 2012, 11:43:40 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on December 29, 2012, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: realist on December 29, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
Calvin wins 87-62.  Brink with 27.
Calvin 12/19 on 3's. 63%.

All that and Brink only played 23 minutes. Wonder what would've happened if he would've scratched 28-30.

Calvin would've won if he played 30.
And if he played 40 minutes maybe he could have put in 6 more 3's and beat Todd Hennink's record.  What was coach thinking?

Usually you want your best player on the floor for more than roughly half the game. He was probably too tired though from playing such a rigorous defensive system.

I understand the tree you're barking up, and I don't disagree with you in general, but there's no reason that Jordan should have played 30 minutes in that game.

I understand the point you are making about Mr. Brink not playing more than 23 minutes.  Can you please shed some light on why one Calvin player did play 30 minutes (in that game)?  Do you think 30 minutes was justified for that player?

Having been at the game I will share a couple of thoughts. I'm don't know why Rietema had the most minutes in the game but he is Calvin's surest, most consistent ballhandler so that might have something to do with it. I'm also not totally confident the stat sheet logging the time (and provided by the host school) is entirely accurate. Some 15 minutes after the game ended, we still didn't have a stat sheet. How long does it take to press "print?"  It sure didn't seem to me that Jordan had only 23 minutes. If he did, he was pretty prolific, getting off 14 shots in that period of time. Finally, there was one moment that I did notice Jordan pulling on the front of his jersey as he looked at the Calvin bench signaling that he was gassed and needed a breather.

Knight2Day

Quote from: realist on January 02, 2013, 11:13:14 AM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on January 02, 2013, 10:38:20 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on January 02, 2013, 10:11:48 AM
Quote from: wiz on January 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 30, 2012, 11:43:40 AM
Quote from: Knight2Day on December 29, 2012, 11:24:42 PM
Quote from: realist on December 29, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
Calvin wins 87-62.  Brink with 27.
Calvin 12/19 on 3's. 63%.

All that and Brink only played 23 minutes. Wonder what would've happened if he would've scratched 28-30.

Calvin would've won if he played 30.
And if he played 40 minutes maybe he could have put in 6 more 3's and beat Todd Hennink's record.  What was coach thinking?

Usually you want your best player on the floor for more than roughly half the game. He was probably too tired though from playing such a rigorous defensive system.

I understand the tree you're barking up, and I don't disagree with you in general, but there's no reason that Jordan should have played 30 minutes in that game.

I understand the point you are making about Mr. Brink not playing more than 23 minutes.  Can you please shed some light on why one Calvin player did play 30 minutes (in that game)?  Do you think 30 minutes was justified for that player?

My qualm is not with that game specifically more the fact that Calvin consistantly has their most (arguably) prolific scorer only logging between 23-26 minutes a game. With outbursts like this and with the league schedule coming up one would hope to see that MPG go up to around 30.

KnightSlappy

Quote from: realist on January 02, 2013, 11:13:14 AM
I understand the point you are making about Mr. Brink not playing more than 23 minutes.  Can you please shed some light on why one Calvin player did play 30 minutes (in that game)?  Do you think 30 minutes was justified for that player?

Are we really nitpicking about how minutes were spread in a 25 point win?

Quote from: Knight2Day on January 02, 2013, 11:56:26 AM
My qualm is not with that game specifically more the fact that Calvin consistantly has their most (arguably) prolific scorer only logging between 23-26 minutes a game. With outbursts like this and with the league schedule coming up one would hope to see that MPG go up to around 30.

I don't disagree with you here at all. We'll have to see how it goes. Since laying an egg versus Carthage, they've won by 41, 27, and 25; not really games in which to display the "real" rotation. KVS does have a history of pushing his starters toward 30 minutes in bigger games, but I agree that it would be nicer to see 26-30 in most "normal" games, and 30-34 in big games.

Happy Calvin Guy

Quote from: oldknight on January 02, 2013, 11:31:45 AM
Having been at the game I will share a couple of thoughts. I'm don't know why Rietema had the most minutes in the game but he is Calvin's surest, most consistent ballhandler so that might have something to do with it. I'm also not totally confident the stat sheet logging the time (and provided by the host school) is entirely accurate. Some 15 minutes after the game ended, we still didn't have a stat sheet. How long does it take to press "print?"  It sure didn't seem to me that Jordan had only 23 minutes. If he did, he was pretty prolific, getting off 14 shots in that period of time. Finally, there was one moment that I did notice Jordan pulling on the front of his jersey as he looked at the Calvin bench signaling that he was gassed and needed a breather.

Thank you for the eyewitness perspective, OK.  Especially in the case of David Rietema, there is no question that his value on the floor is much greater than box scores indicate.  Box scores underestimate the value of defense and ballhandling, both areas in which David excels.  I'm oftentimes shocked at how "empty" his box score line looks after I've watched a game and seen the contribution he truly makes.  I'd be interested to see +/- stats if they are available.  KS, it seems that you used to come up with these #'s?

Also, in a blowout win, it makes more sense to have your reliable ballhandler/distributor on the floor longer.  He can help the 2nd and 3rd string guys get better looks than they otherwise would and also ensure that the game stays at a decisive margin. 

Flying Dutch Fan

Quote from: sac on December 30, 2012, 05:58:34 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 30, 2012, 05:22:38 PM

Every team/league is going to play some bottom feeders, but has the MIAA played more than usual?

I honestly don't know.  Its just the one thing that really stood out to me this year.   The CCIW, HCAC, NCAC and OAC play almost entirely D3 schedules.  Certainly the NCAC and OAC play their share of Presidents and AMCC programs.  The CCIW has the SLIAC and NathCon to pick on.

The MIAA is probably going to play more bottom feeders because we have more non-conference games to fill than our regional neighbors.

Been thinking about this for a bit and grabbed some numbers just to take a look.  As a whole, the records of the teams that the MIAA has played is probably right where you would expect - dang close to .500 (521-527 - .497).    What is more surprising is the distribution of those records (I am not counting the Hope CoF game):


Team     Opponent Win %   
Hope     0.650   
Alma     0.620   
Kalamazoo     0.496   
Trine     0.484   
Albion     0.477   
Olivet     0.469   
Calvin     0.449   
Adrian     0.362   
2016, 2020, 2022 MIAA Pick 'Em Champion

"Sports are kind of like passion and that's temporary in many cases, but academics - that's like true love and that's enduring." 
John Wooden

"Blame FDF.  That's the default.  Always blame FDF."
goodknight

KnightSlappy

#35378
Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on January 02, 2013, 12:54:11 PM
Quote from: sac on December 30, 2012, 05:58:34 PM
Quote from: KnightSlappy on December 30, 2012, 05:22:38 PM

Every team/league is going to play some bottom feeders, but has the MIAA played more than usual?

I honestly don't know.  Its just the one thing that really stood out to me this year.   The CCIW, HCAC, NCAC and OAC play almost entirely D3 schedules.  Certainly the NCAC and OAC play their share of Presidents and AMCC programs.  The CCIW has the SLIAC and NathCon to pick on.

The MIAA is probably going to play more bottom feeders because we have more non-conference games to fill than our regional neighbors.

Been thinking about this for a bit and grabbed some numbers just to take a look.  As a whole, the records of the teams that the MIAA has played is probably right where you would expect - dang close to .500 (521-527 - .497).    What is more surprising is the distribution of those records (I am not counting the Hope CoF game):


Team     Opponent Win %   
Hope     0.650   
Alma     0.620   
Kalamazoo     0.496   
Trine     0.484   
Albion     0.477   
Olivet     0.469   
Calvin     0.449   
Adrian     0.362   

Two questions:

(1) Did you remove games vs. the team in question? (So Wooster counts as 10-1 for Adrian).
(2) Did you sum total opponent wins and losses or did you average opponents' percentages?

I ran my RPI calculation spreadsheet and it came out with Calvin #17 in the GL region due to poor SOS.

KnightSlappy

Quote from: Happy Calvin Guy on January 02, 2013, 12:49:51 PM
I'd be interested to see +/- stats if they are available.  KS, it seems that you used to come up with these #'s?

I used to, but scrapped it this year. There is so much randomness in the numbers that even 27 games yields much more noise than signal.

KnightSlappy

FDF's table with Massey SOS ranks in parenthesis:


Team     Opponent Win %   
(10) Hope     0.650   
(34) Alma     0.620   
(167) Kalamazoo     0.496   
(195)Trine     0.484   
(160) Albion     0.477   
(130) Olivet     0.469   
(95) Calvin     0.449   
(146) Adrian     0.362   

Flying Dutch Fan

Quote from: KnightSlappy on January 02, 2013, 01:38:59 PM
Two questions:

(1) Did you remove games vs. the team in question? (So Wooster counts as 10-1 for Adrian).
(2) Did you sum total opponent wins and losses or did you average opponents' percentages?

I ran my RPI calculation spreadsheet and it came out with Calvin #17 in the GL region due to poor SOS.

(1) nope - forgot to do that, so I have updated the numbers below.   Opponents records now 482-479 or .502

(2) just summed them


Team     Opponent Win %   
Hope     0.655   
Alma     0.627   
Trine     0.495   
Kalamazoo     0.473   
Calvin     0.472   
Albion     0.462   
Olivet     0.462   
Adrian     0.392   
2016, 2020, 2022 MIAA Pick 'Em Champion

"Sports are kind of like passion and that's temporary in many cases, but academics - that's like true love and that's enduring." 
John Wooden

"Blame FDF.  That's the default.  Always blame FDF."
goodknight

realist

"If you are catching flack it means you are over the target".  Brietbart.

sac


sac

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on January 02, 2013, 01:51:38 PM

Team     Opponent Win %   
Hope     0.655   
Alma     0.627   
Trine     0.495   
Kalamazoo     0.473   
Calvin     0.472   
Albion     0.462   
Olivet     0.462   
Adrian     0.392   

When/if it comes down to it Adrian's going to wish they had played someone.