Pool C

Started by Pat Coleman, January 20, 2006, 02:35:54 PM

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Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: John Gleich on February 23, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
When discussing Pool C consideration, it's assumed everyone takes one more loss.

That's part of why the UAA has a bit of an advantage (generally) in Pool C. Their Pool C contenders don't have to take the extra loss.

That point is... muted... this year because of the meat grinder that has been the UAA this season... but...

That, and an even bigger advantage - their teams are in FIVE different regions!  Rarely will a UAA team block another UAA team from even reaching the table.

ronk

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 23, 2015, 08:08:12 PM
Quote from: ronk on February 23, 2015, 07:48:22 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 23, 2015, 05:30:47 PM
Quote from: ronk on February 23, 2015, 01:15:27 PM
It can't counteract both the loss AND Scranton's win over Catholic. Choose 1 or the other but not both.

You can choose both since Scranton's win only gives them a 1-1 vRRO and F&M has a 3-2 (including a win over a #1 Richard Stockton). Despite the loss, the win over Dickinson allows them to be 3-2 versus 2-3. I understand what you are trying to get at, but Scranton's only vRRO results are against Catholic - no one else.

You're leaving out the SOS difference which is in Scranton's favor.

A .011 'advantage' is essentially a tie.

I disagree; it's more than 1/3 of what's considered a 2-game difference.

ronk

Quote from: bopol on February 23, 2015, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 23, 2015, 11:05:55 AM
Oh yeah. I also don't see St. Norbert being an issue. They are so much better than the other 3 MWC teams in the tourney.  If they do end up losing, IWU (and NCC) should jump them and Elmhurst should stay ahead of them.

Nah, it isn't St. Norbert being an issue - it's just a question of how can we take what's going on in the Central and compare it to other regions.  If St. Norbert iis sandwiched between 5 loss Elmhurst and 7 loss IWU, then what that say when we compare 7 loss IWU (or 7 loss North Central) to Brooklyn/Barach.  I'd say that it means that IWU and NCC are probably ahead of those two, which pretty much Pool C for the Atlantic ends at William Patterson.  Or if you compare St. Norbert with Franklin and Marshall and Scranton, I think you have to figure Norbert's ahead of both and then where does that put IWU and NCC with F&M and Scranton?

My personal take in the moment is that the Atlantic will get one Pool C, the East none and the Mid-Atlantic none and the West one before every ranked team in the Central will have a Pool C if the current rankings continues to hold true.

Dickinson could be ahead of every Central Pool C candidate save Whitewater.

Greek Tragedy

#5718
Dickinson's record easily trumps that of IWU, NCC and Elmhurst. But their results against vRRO is inferior to those teams, as is their SOS.

By that I mean, more results.
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sac

#5719
Dickinson was  a top 7 Pool C midweek last week.  They also have a head-to-head win over North Central, one of their 3 biggest wins.  (Johns Hopkins, F&M, North Central)

I would say they would for sure be picked ahead of Elmhurst/North Central and it could probably go either way with IWU.  IWU has some strong wins as well (Augustana, North Central, Elmhurst, Buena Vista).  It really depends on how serious the supposed '.030 SOS equals 2 wins' is taken to heart.


5.  Illinois Wesleyan  18-7  .720/.577/4-4
9.  North Central  16-7  .696/.577/3-5
10.  Dickinson 20-5   .800/.541/3-2
14.  Elmhurst 19-6  .760/.545/4-4

Dickinson will probably add to their SOS a little more than IWU due to playing a neutral site semi-final while IWU hosts Elmhurst.

Greek Tragedy

IWU and Elmhurst play at Augustana.
Pointers
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sac

My mistake.  Then Dickinson's sos improvement vs Iwu is minimal.

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 23, 2015, 10:14:21 PM
IWU and Elmhurst play at Augustana.
Quote from: sac on February 23, 2015, 10:24:29 PM
My mistake.  Then Dickinson's sos improvement vs Iwu is minimal.

Since IWU won in Rock Island, but were crushed by Augie in B'town, we've adopted Carver as our new home court.  But we get to count it as 'neutral' - cool! ;D

smedindy

Quote from: John Gleich on February 23, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
When discussing Pool C consideration, it's assumed everyone takes one more loss.

That's part of why the UAA has a bit of an advantage (generally) in Pool C. Their Pool C contenders don't have to take the extra loss.

That point is... muted... this year because of the meat grinder that has been the UAA this season... but...

Still got to win the games, and non-conference is even more important for them since there's no redemption in a tourney. At least they double-round it!

I generally don't like conference tournaments, because I think you prove your worth in the regular season instead of a 2-or-3 game turkey shoot.

John Gleich

Quote from: smedindy on February 23, 2015, 11:13:35 PM
Quote from: John Gleich on February 23, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
When discussing Pool C consideration, it's assumed everyone takes one more loss.

That's part of why the UAA has a bit of an advantage (generally) in Pool C. Their Pool C contenders don't have to take the extra loss.

That point is... muted... this year because of the meat grinder that has been the UAA this season... but...

Still got to win the games, and non-conference is even more important for them since there's no redemption in a tourney. At least they double-round it!

I generally don't like conference tournaments, because I think you prove your worth in the regular season instead of a 2-or-3 game turkey shoot.

There was a lot of healthy discussion about conference tournaments when the CCIW added theirs several years ago. Many made this same argument and is hard to argue with.

But there is something redemptive about everybody (or whomever makes the conference tournament) getting one final chance to play their way into the dance. Of course, this argument is diminished when only the top X # of seeds make the torment instead of everybody...
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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


Also, when you're a small conference only ever sending one team to the tournament, it's nice to know the team you send can win in clutch moments.  Peyton Manning wins the regular season.  Tom Brady wins the playoffs.  It works the same way for teams a lot of the time.
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KnightSlappy

Quote from: John Gleich on February 24, 2015, 07:41:41 AM
Quote from: smedindy on February 23, 2015, 11:13:35 PM
Quote from: John Gleich on February 23, 2015, 02:06:35 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on February 22, 2015, 09:30:18 PM
When discussing Pool C consideration, it's assumed everyone takes one more loss.

That's part of why the UAA has a bit of an advantage (generally) in Pool C. Their Pool C contenders don't have to take the extra loss.

That point is... muted... this year because of the meat grinder that has been the UAA this season... but...

Still got to win the games, and non-conference is even more important for them since there's no redemption in a tourney. At least they double-round it!

I generally don't like conference tournaments, because I think you prove your worth in the regular season instead of a 2-or-3 game turkey shoot.

There was a lot of healthy discussion about conference tournaments when the CCIW added theirs several years ago. Many made this same argument and is hard to argue with.

But there is something redemptive about everybody (or whomever makes the conference tournament) getting one final chance to play their way into the dance. Of course, this argument is diminished when only the top X # of seeds make the torment instead of everybody...

I think you can make arguments all around. On one hand, if you win from start to finish then yeah, you deserve to make the tournament at the end of the year, but what about teams who challenge themselves, take their lumps, and get better as the season progresses.

Take a team like Alma in the MIAA. By all measures not a terrific team overall this year. #120 according to Massey which puts them between Wabash and Carthage. Nothing to laugh at, but not tournament quality. But they've had an interesting season. They played a very challenging non-conference schedule comprising WIAC, CCIW, and traditionally strong teams from the Ohio conferences. They lost almost all of these games. Six games into the MIAA season they were sitting at 4-13 (2-4). Then something happened. Maybe it was the schedule flipping to a home-friendly stretch. Maybe it was randomness at work. But they won seven of the last eight games (including wins over the top three in the MIAA: Calvin, Hope, and Trine) to finish 9-5 in the (admittedly second tier) conference and grab the fourth and final spot in the tournament. I think this is part of the fun of college basketball (to be clear, the most fun would be Alma going down hard in defeat on Thursday night).

I wish the MIAA would go back to doing a full conference tournament rather than taking the top four seeds. I think there's something romantic about the idea that a #8 seed in a conference could go on a run and get into the tournament. Single elimination tournaments like the NCAAs are about crowning a champion, not determining who the best teams are.

Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 24, 2015, 08:03:06 AM
Also, when you're a small conference only ever sending one team to the tournament, it's nice to know the team you send can win in clutch moments.  Peyton Manning wins the regular season.  Tom Brady wins the playoffs.  It works the same way for teams a lot of the time.

Tom Brady's team has won a higher percentage of regular season games started by him (77%) than Peyton Manning's teams have (70%).

Greek Tragedy

I'm torn. I love tourney time that creates those Cinderella teams. On the other hand, I think it's a shame when a team plays their butts off for 25 games and wins their regular season conference title only to have one thing go wrong, lose their conference tournament at some point and sit at home when some "lucky/hot" team gets to dance.

And I'm not a fan of everyone and their mother making the conference tournament.
Pointers
Breed of a Champion
2004, 2005, 2010 and 2015 National Champions

Fantasy Leagues Commissioner

TGHIJGSTO!!!

sac

Conference tournaments deciding the AQ's wouldn't be such a big deal if D3 had the same access ratio to the tournament as D1. 

WUPHF

One advantage of playing a conference tournament is that you get late season tourney experience immediately prior to the national tournament. 

Everyone who has posted on the subject so far could spend the entire day talking about the advantages and disadvantages of each and every conference in Division III.  I can definitely think of a few UAA programs that would love to have a conference tournament this season.