NESCAC

Started by LaPaz, September 11, 2011, 05:54:52 PM

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Shooter McGavin

This has always been a rule in almost any conference and every NCAA playoff game. There wouldn't be a PK shootout in a regular season game so that rationale wouldn't apply.

PaulNewman

Playoffs are the only games when there are PKs.  You keep saying it's a rule and that the rule changed.

SoccerMom_5

#5657
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 12, 2017, 10:13:44 AM
This has always been a rule in almost any conference and every NCAA playoff game. There wouldn't be a PK shootout in a regular season game so that rationale wouldn't apply.

Must have been NESCAC playoff games... I have never seen so many shootouts in my career as in the last few years of watching NESCAC teams.  Lol.   

In club games and international games, you shoot with the kids on the field at the end of regulation. ( In fact... using the basic FIFA rules, you can only switch your keeper if he is injured if you havent used all your subs.  )   
Where I am from, it applies to highschool games, as well...

SoccerMom_5

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
Playoffs are the only games when there are PKs.  You keep saying it's a rule and that the rule changed.

I am talking about the "Laws of the Game."   It is a soccer "law."     

PaulNewman

Quote from: SoccerMom_5 on November 12, 2017, 10:26:05 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
Playoffs are the only games when there are PKs.  You keep saying it's a rule and that the rule changed.

I am talking about the "Laws of the Game."   It is a soccer "law."   

Wow.  You're just wrong.  Do you remember when a team in the World Cup just a few years ago (Holland maybe?) used a different keeper just for PKs???

SoccerMom_5


PaulNewman

SoccerMom, so what is your point re: Bowdoin?  Do you really think the Bowdoin coach doesn't know how it works in the NCAA?

SoccerMom_5

#5662
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 10:36:33 AM
Quote from: SoccerMom_5 on November 12, 2017, 10:26:05 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
Playoffs are the only games when there are PKs.  You keep saying it's a rule and that the rule changed.

I am talking about the "Laws of the Game."   It is a soccer "law."   

Wow.  You're just wrong.  Do you remember when a team in the World Cup just a few years ago (Holland maybe?) used a different keeper just for PKs???

Yes.  Keepers can sometimes be subbed. Which I covered previously.   

It is fine if you think I am wrong... but you might want to check the rules.   I copied some links for you.  Or you can find your own if you dont trust mine.   But...that is absolutely a rule.

In fact... I expected it to be immutable.  It seems open to a lot of abuse if you let just anyone take the kicks.  Or even keep for them.  Teams could carry PK "specialists" who aren't even really soccer players. 
I mean... you mostly don't come to PKs... but, if you did and you could use whomever you wanted, it seems to me teams would start carrying PK specialists to tournaments.  And that doesn't align with sportsmanship expections or respect for the game. 

PaulNewman

Assuming you are right, which I don't recall, why would it make sense to be able to use a sub for just the GK for PKs but not use a sub for a kicker of a PK???

Sportsmanship???  Have teams been carrying just "PK specialists"?  Is a PK specialist less likely to miss under the unusual pressure of a NCAA game?  Why do the best players (and shooters) so often miss under those circumstances?  And do you think the Bowdoin coach knew he had options but was just adhering to good sportsmanship?

SoccerMom_5

#5664
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 10:42:47 AM
SoccerMom, so what is your point re: Bowdoin?  Do you really think the Bowdoin coach doesn't know how it works in the NCAA?

I didn't say he didnt know.  It does occur to me that he wasnt thinking of it or it seems he didnt know as he has only used kids on the field at end of regulation.  Or maybe he feels (as I do) that it would be unsporting to do otherwise.

But that is all speculation.  Never have I ever said what someone does or does not know or think in the NESCAC.  Just like the rest of you and your coaching suppositions... it is all speculation.   

However ...  the rules of the game are the rules of the game.  Those are not speculation.  And I appreciate the update on the NCAA and NESCAC rules.

Never would I have expected that they did not use the basic rules of the game. (Except the subbing rules, which I knew about and understood.)    Now I know. So, thanks.

I will have to download the NCAA rules and see what other rules they have changed.  Maybe some of the other stuff will make more sense. 

SoccerMom_5

#5665
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 10:52:22 AM
Assuming you are right, which I don't recall, why would it make sense to be able to use a sub for just the GK for PKs but not use a sub for a kicker of a PK???

Sportsmanship???  Have teams been carrying just "PK specialists"?  Is a PK specialist less likely to miss under the unusual pressure of a NCAA game?  Why do the best players (and shooters) so often miss under those circumstances?  And do you think the Bowdoin coach knew he had options but was just adhering to good sportsmanship?

You don't think teams would start carrying PK specialists if it would potentially keep them alive in tournament playoffs?  Or Cup games? Or... 

That is laudable of you to have faith like that in Humankind.  It probably reflects poorly on me that I do not have such faith in the human spirit.  But...  yeah...  I think they would carry specialists. 

(We have to carry birth certificates to youth tournaments 'cause teams were putting 17 year old ringers on u14 teams.  Lol. )

Obviously they don't currently  carry specialists... because it is actually a longstanding rule that you can't.  (Except, apparently, the NCAA.  Which I did not realize and is probably relying on college honor codes --and budgets-- to restrict that sort of problems. **.)

**again... speculation.  I have no idea what the NCAA arbiters were thinking with that modification of the rules.   

Although... if I were an NCAA coach, I would love to have a bunch of kids like that first shooter from RUN take all of the shots.  That was a phenomenal PK shot.  Holy Cow!   
Edit:  **But... again, I would rather have a rule to "dance with the one you came with."  Shooters should be kids in at the end of the game.  In my opinion.  And in the Laws of the Game.** 

PaulNewman

Last try here.  No, I don't think I have more faith in "humankind."  I think it wouldn't work.  A "PK specialist" would be just as at risk of missing in those situations as the best players on teams who often are the team's best PK taker and who often miss in these types of games.  Ever seen Messi sky a PK over the bar???  And you didn't answer why you could use a sub for a GK to do PKs only but not use a sub for a PK taker.

SoccerMom_5

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 11:07:08 AM
Last try here.  No, I don't think I have more faith in "humankind."  I think it wouldn't work.  A "PK specialist" would be just as at risk of missing in those situations as the best players on teams who often are the team's best PK taker and who often miss in these types of games.  Ever seen Messi sky a PK over the bar???  And you didn't answer why you could use a sub for a GK to do PKs only but not use a sub for a PK taker.


Lol.  I did not write the rules.  So, again... it is supposition.
But..  you dont see a difference between a keeper and a field player?   
First, let's be clear that the keeper is only supposed to sub if injured.  And under FIFA laws, (which applies to Holland) only if you have not used up all of your subs.

I cut and pasted the below from a USYSA-produced coaching license training manual.

3. Only players who were on the pitch at the end of play will be allowed to participate in the shoot-out.
4.A team may replace a goalkeeper who becomes injured during the shoot-out with a substitute, provided the team has not already used the maximum number of substitutes allowed by the competition.
5.If a goalkeeper is sent off during the shoot-out, another player who finished the game must act as goalkeeper.
6.If a player, other than the goalkeeper, becomes injured or is sent off during the shoot-out, then the shoot-out will continue with no substitution allowed.
7.Any player remaining on the pitch may act as goalkeeper, and it will not required that the same player act as goalkeeper throughout the shoot-out.

SoccerMom_5

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 10:52:22 AM

  And do you think the Bowdoin coach knew he had options but was just adhering to good sportsmanship?

Yeah... sure!  Totally possible.  Before I saw this, I had also said that.  In fact.  I think that it is only sporting to go with the kids you had on the field.  Then no kicker is "fresher" than the others or whatever... but, then it seems to me even more strange that it isn't included in the NCAA rules.  Sporting play should be a requirement. 

Bucket

Quote from: SoccerMom_5 on November 12, 2017, 01:27:30 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 12, 2017, 01:13:43 AM
The above is false. You do not have to be on the field at the end of the game.

Well, then that is a weird NESCAC quirk, because... normally you have to have been on the pitch at the final whistle to be eligible to kick in the PK shootout.  Unless you stepped off for injury or equipment issues and were not replaced with a sub.  (Or if your keeper is on the field but then subsequently injured.  Then, you can bring on a new keeper regardless.)   

Otherwise.. only whomever was in at the end of the game can shoot.   

If the NESCAC doesnt follow that rule, then I stand corrected. 
But that is a strange rule not to follow.

  I am pretty sure the NCAA would be following it.   Because that is just a pretty much basic rule.

Nope. Not a NESCAC quirk. NCAA allows players who were not on pitch to participate in penalty shootout.