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Started by Mr. Ypsi, September 04, 2009, 08:57:08 PM

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Ejay

It truly saddens me to see the NPU roster.  A 23 year old Brazilian freshman midfielder?  Come on already.  I know not everyone will agree with me, but to me that's not what D3 soccer is about. 

Gotberg

Quote from: EB2319 on September 03, 2018, 10:59:40 AM
It truly saddens me to see the NPU roster.  A 23 year old Brazilian freshman midfielder?  Come on already.  I know not everyone will agree with me, but to me that's not what D3 soccer is about.

So, a young person wants to attend a university alone in a foreign country and pay to play soccer in the smallest NCAA athletic with rules that allow it; but they shouldn't be allowed due to unwritten principles? 
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best

tjcummingsfan

Quote from: EB2319 on September 03, 2018, 10:59:40 AM
It truly saddens me to see the NPU roster.  A 23 year old Brazilian freshman midfielder?  Come on already.  I know not everyone will agree with me, but to me that's not what D3 soccer is about.

So what is D3 soccer about? 

Ejay

As I said, not everyone will agree with me and I see the NPU faithful are out in force.  To each their own.  I just don't see how recruiting an international team of grown men is good for D3 soccer.  It reminds me of the youth coaches who flight their teams down just so they can get a trophy. 

And I'm curious, would you guys know the 4 year graduation rate of the international soccer players? Of the 20 internationals on the roster, there are only 3 juniors and no seniors.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Gotberg on September 03, 2018, 10:25:36 AMI watched a little of the game video this morning, which is available via Illinois Tech's athletic site.  I had seen the Deni Cresto recruiting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w41TYyXAn4g  on youtube, but found it hard to believe that 'kid' could be coming to NPU.  He's really impressive and will be a great distributor.

Yeah, he wasn't mentioned in terms of what the coaches had previously told me about the freshmen, but he clearly belongs out on the pitch with the starters.

Quote from: Gotberg on September 03, 2018, 10:25:36 AMI think I read that Barriga scored 35 goals and had 24 assists last year?  I don't know who Fenton plays, but I know it's not small school ball in rural Ohio, so those must be serious numbers.

Fenton plays in the Metro Suburban Conference, a mixed league of fourteen high schools from all over the Chicagoland suburbs that includes public schools such as Glenbard South, Riverside-Brookfield, Elmwood Park, Ridgewood, and Fenton, and some of the larger private schools in the area, including Aurora Central Catholic, Guerin, and Illiana Christian. Most notably for CCIW purposes, it includes Wheaton Academy as well; the Warriors have been a major feeder program for NPU archrival Wheaton for generations, so any league that includes Wheaton Academy is a league that has good soccer players in it. (WA is 5-0 this season, with a 22-1 goals spread after manhandling four suburban public schools and Cleveland-area powerhouse Cuyahoga Valley Christian).

Quote from: Gotberg on September 03, 2018, 10:25:36 AMKnap isn't listed on NPU's website either, which is why he's probably not in the box score since he doesn't exist to a degree.

He's on the roster. Look again.

Quote from: Gotberg on September 03, 2018, 10:25:36 AMIndividual skill did not drop after substitutions.  it's going to be Born's job to find the right combinations and I suspect some subs will eventually be starters....

John will have his usual interesting decisions to make, that's for sure.

Quote from: EB2319 on September 03, 2018, 10:59:40 AM
It truly saddens me to see the NPU roster.  A 23 year old Brazilian freshman midfielder?  Come on already.  I know not everyone will agree with me, but to me that's not what D3 soccer is about. 

Quote from: EB2319 on September 03, 2018, 02:06:24 PM
As I said, not everyone will agree with me and I see the NPU faithful are out in force.  To each their own.  I just don't see how recruiting an international team of grown men is good for D3 soccer.  It reminds me of the youth coaches who flight their teams down just so they can get a trophy.

Cry me a river. These student-athletes were completely recruited on the up-and-up, and they're every bit as entitled to participate in intercollegiate athletics as is anyone else, just as they are every bit as entitled to get an education from an American school as is anyone else. As for the age thing, you seem to have forgotten the fact that there is no age limit imposed upon NCAA Division III student-athletes.

Like it or not, international students are a major part of American higher education nowadays, and their importance gets bigger every year as far as a lot of small colleges and universities are concerned. Given the competition, the increasingly high costs of running an institution of higher learning (including monies distributed as financial aid), the budgetary needs of small schools that are often tuition-driven in terms of the annual bottom line, and the perceived diversity value of having students from other parts of the world, it only makes sense to bring in young people from overseas who are going to pay full boat (or close to it, as far as the school is concerned) for their education. You need look no further than the school that hosted last night's match, Illinois Tech, for proof of that; IIT's undergraduate student body is 21% international (and the majority of grad students are international as well).

International students not only make North Park's athletics teams better, they make the school as a whole better, whether they play sports or not. None of us who support the school are going to apologize for them. Quite the opposite, in fact.

It's also not an "international team". A bunch of North Park's key players are Americans, including three of the four members of the back line (seniors Kyle Robson, Ricky Pimentel, and Jason Gonzalez) that is the heart of this squad.

Quote from: EB2319 on September 03, 2018, 02:06:24 PMAnd I'm curious, would you guys know the 4 year graduation rate of the international soccer players? Of the 20 internationals on the roster, there are only 3 juniors and no seniors.

Do you really want to know why? It's because most of North Park's soccer players graduate after three years at NPU. The vast majority of NPU's soccer players over the years have been from Sweden and Norway, two countries whose gymnasium systems of secondary education offer much more in the way of college-level courses than do American high schools and their comparatively modest advanced-placement curricula. The Scandinavian players thus arrive at NPU with plenty of transferable credits in hand and the intention to only go to school there for three years, sometimes even only two, which makes a North Park bachelors degree more affordable for them but also makes recruiting them somewhat of a tradeoff for the Vikings coaching staff.

For example, you need look no further than last season's leading scorer in the CCIW, Carel Kawele, a Swede. He graduated in three years. Pedram Tahmi-Masoleh, the 2015 All-American striker and CCIW leading scorer? Same deal -- came and went in three years, eschewing a final season at North Park to return home to Sweden with degree in hand. Mathias Warp, NPU's All-American center mid and the CCIW's Player of the Year last season, graduated this past May after only two years at North Park. NPU head coach John Born was unable to persuade him to enroll in grad school at North Park, so Mathias has returned home to Norway.

The international-player graduation rate isn't 100%, because a private school in the United States is very expensive, and the Scandinavian students are all well aware that they can attend university back home for free on the taxpayer's kronor. That's how NPU lost one of its starters from last year, Norwegian defensive mid Isaac Roseholt, while another international-student starter from last season's team, Gustav Ericsson, transferred to D1 San Diego, where is on full scholarship (and has been a starter since Day One, incidentally) and is living the dream of every Swede ... 365 days a year of warm weather. :D But the international student-athletes at NPU who stay for more than one school year invariably graduate. That number is either 100% or close to it -- and I say with all sincerity that a lot of those young men and women graduate with honors cords around their neck, too. They tend on average to be more diligent about their schoolwork than are their American counterparts in the student body.

International students are an important part of NPU's student body -- and plenty of them don't play sports, either. As I said, none of us are going to apologize for them, whether they play sports or not.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Ejay

Thanks for the insights on the graduation rate. It was truly an honest question and not a dig.

Gregory Sager

"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

tjcummingsfan

I watched most of the Wheaton @ Albion match this afternoon/evening, and the ref sure had his work cut out for him today.  7 cards handed out, and I think there could have been at least a couple more.  It was a physical game.  There were some reckless/dangerous challenges from both sides, but a couple from Wheaton seemed especially egregious.  There was one very rough collision that left a Wheaton player on the ground for several minutes, I believe he walked off on his own.  I sure hope he's okay. 

Wheaton seemed to have the upper hand for most of the first half and were up 2-0 until the last 12 seconds of the first half when Albion score it's first on a set piece (I believe)  Albion tied it up quickly into the second half (again from a set piece I believe).  Wheaton went down to 10 men just a minute or two later.  From that point on the game actually seemed pretty even.  Both teams had chances throughout the second period and both over time periods. 

The game ended in a 2-2 draw.  That seems like a bad result for Wheaton, even considering they were down a man for almost 65 minutes.  Albion was picked to finish 5th in the MIAA this season and they finished a poor 6-8-4 last season (finishing 6th in the MIAA)

Wheaton looks like a quick team with some good ball skills, but they were lacklustre tonight in their passing (that can probably be said for most teams at this point in the season though!). 

I look forward to seeing North park take on Albion in a couple weeks to see how things compare.     

Mr.Right

Quote from: EB2319 on September 03, 2018, 10:59:40 AM
It truly saddens me to see the NPU roster.  A 23 year old Brazilian freshman midfielder?  Come on already.  I know not everyone will agree with me, but to me that's not what D3 soccer is about.

I have seen this argument for years in D3 Soccer. Whether its North Park or Salem State in the 80's or whoever it may be. I have always argued that if a school / program wants to have international players, while I disagree with passing on American players for foreign ones, the said program has every right to have them. My issue for years has been the AGE of these international players. A 23 year old Frosh means he will be 26 as a Senior going against 18 year old kids. That is men against boys and just not right and goes against all of what a D3 education / athletics is about . UMASS Boston when they had a 27 year old Frosh a couple years ago was a fully grown matured man going against boys. It is absolutely RIDICULOUS. So I have always said International players are fine but for D3 Sports there MUST be an age limit for incoming Frosh. Maybe 19-20 years old would be a good cut off. As far as these international players that want a US education and to play sports in their mid-20's than they should be enrolling in D2 schools. Some D2 schools encourage this and are known for it and are allowed to do this. Not sure about all D2 rules but this has been a norm for years. My only issue with hammering North Park on this now is because they are winning and succeeding better than they ever have. So I am guessing North Park has been doing this for years and maybe have been somewhat successful regionally but certainly not nationally. So the moment this program becomes a success nationwide people start to take notice and this issue becomes front and center. Where were these said people before? You can imagine if a couple posters on here are complaining about this what North Park's league foes are saying. I am betting this is becoming a hot issue behind the scenes with opposing AD's / Coaches and Admin of its league and regional rivals.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 05, 2018, 12:14:55 PMMy issue for years has been the AGE of these international players. A 23 year old Frosh means he will be 26 as a Senior going against 18 year old kids. That is men against boys and just not right and goes against all of what a D3 education / athletics is about .

Wrong. In fact, you have it totally backwards. Since its inception in the early '70s, D3 has never placed an age limit upon participation. This is the division in which middle-aged men can, and have, played in football games as kickers, and in which a man in his forties played basketball for Geneva and multiple women in their forties have run on cross-country teams. The idea in D3 is that intercollegiate athletics is open to everyone who is enrolled as a full-time student, without discrimination. Age discrimination is no different than any other form of discrimination in terms of being a negative, an unwanted and unfair barrier that the all-inclusive nature of the division attempts to erase.

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 05, 2018, 12:14:55 PMUMASS Boston when they had a 27 year old Frosh a couple years ago was a fully grown matured man going against boys. It is absolutely RIDICULOUS.

It's not ridiculous. It is, as I said, in keeping with the non-discriminatory and all-inclusive ethos of NCAA Division III athletics. The no-age-limit rule is in the D3 handbook for a reason.

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 05, 2018, 12:14:55 PMSo I have always said International players are fine but for D3 Sports there MUST be an age limit for incoming Frosh.

"Must"? Are you making the rules now? Gee, I always thought that it was the presidents of D3 member institutions that made the rules at the annual D3 convention.

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 05, 2018, 12:14:55 PMMaybe 19-20 years old would be a good cut off. As far as these international players that want a US education and to play sports in their mid-20's than they should be enrolling in D2 schools. Some D2 schools encourage this and are known for it and are allowed to do this. Not sure about all D2 rules but this has been a norm for years.

Again, this is completely off-base. D2 is a scholarship division. It has a completely different mission with regard to the needs and the goals of its consituent institutions. D2 is not about student-athlete participation (or at least not in the "everybody can play" sense that is paramount in D3). It's about the profile and outreach of the institution. D2 restricts participation by means of offering athletic scholarships. D3 opens it up to everyone by forbidding athletic scholarships. Telling people who are above an arbitrary age cutoff point that they can only participate in intercollegiate athletics if they are given a scholarship to do so is discriminatory.

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 05, 2018, 12:14:55 PMMy only issue with hammering North Park on this now is because they are winning and succeeding better than they ever have. So I am guessing North Park has been doing this for years and maybe have been somewhat successful regionally but certainly not nationally. So the moment this program becomes a success nationwide people start to take notice and this issue becomes front and center. Where were these said people before?

Wheaton had plenty of sour grapes when North Park started winning and became a regional-level power a decade and a half ago. The CCIW was no longer Wheaton's private little sandbox as far as soccer was concerned, and that ticked off the Wheaties. So the Wheaton soccer people tried to get North Park investigated by the NCAA for using players that had been paid at some point in their leagues overseas and were thus no longer of amateur status. Wheaton's fishing expedition failed, because NPU has always scrupulously followed the rules concerning amateur status in overseas leagues. But the important point here was that Wheaton was concerned about NPU violating D3's standing rules, not about NPU observing D3 standing rules that Wheaton just didn't like. In other words, Wheaton didn't waste its time tilting at nonexistent windmills the way that you are.

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 05, 2018, 12:14:55 PMYou can imagine if a couple posters on here are complaining about this what North Park's league foes are saying. I am betting this is becoming a hot issue behind the scenes with opposing AD's / Coaches and Admin of its league and regional rivals.

It's not "becoming" anything. North Park has been recruiting Swedish soccer players for a generation now, and it'd had numerous Swedish walk-ons of various ages for a generation before that. It's old news as far as the CCIW is concerned. As for your complaint being more general, I've heard it all before. Coaches and ADs know D3's rules as well as anyone. And the people who run things at those schools understand the D3 philosophy concerning general student participation in athletics in D3.

By no means are all of North Park's international players older than their American classmates on the team, although it's not unusual for an international player to be a year or two older than his classmates. A player like Deni Cresto is definitely the exception in terms of age. But, regardless, his presence on the Vikings is not only perfectly legal, it's in keeping with D3's stated philosophy of opening intercollegiate athletics participation to all full-time students, regardless of age, gender, creed, color, faith, sexual orientation, etc. And North Park enjoys no competitive advantage due to this rule, for the simple reason that any D3 soccer coach could recruit a Deni Cresto if he chose to do so.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

PaulNewman

Mr. Sager, you are completely off-base.

Mr.Right didn't indicate he doesn't know the rules.  He surely does.  His post indicates as much.  He said he doesn't agree with the policy, so debate him on those grounds if you must.

And there is a competitive advantage in terms of 25-25+ men playing against 18/19 year olds.  If a team has one or two, then fine, but a handful or more does tilt the scales.


You also missed that Mr.Right actually defended NPU, by saying folks (other than Wheaton) haven't really complained or even noticed that much before until NPU became a bigger deal.  And if NPU makes another Final Four you will surely hear even more complaints.

Mr.Right

#1001
Ill just delete this post. Its just not worth it but if Sager believes the D3 mission is to have 45 year old Frosh kicking field goals then so be it. It might be within the rules but the school and the program are going almost one foot over the line doing this. Schools like this belong in D2

PaulNewman

One other thing.  What D3 Presidents vote on has nothing to do with whether they specifically considered or would endorse a team of 25 year olds (or a majority or even handful) for D3 competition.  That's not to say they wouldn't allow it, but that's a far cry from an endorsement or something actually intended from a policy point of view.  And I think many of us would argue that such a scenario violates the spirit (if not the "rules") of D3 athletic competition.  For heaven sakes, IT IS D3, not a semi-professional league.

Gregory Sager

#1003
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2018, 04:19:55 PM
Mr. Sager, you are completely off-base.

Disagree. He attacked the rules, I defended them.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2018, 04:19:55 PMMr.Right didn't indicate he doesn't know the rules.  He surely does.  His post indicates as much.  He said he doesn't agree with the policy, so debate him on those grounds if you must.

I am debating him on those grounds. I've not only reiterated the rules, I've explained the reasoning behind them.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2018, 04:19:55 PM
And there is a competitive advantage in terms of 25-25+ men playing against 18/19 year olds.  If a team has one or two, then fine, but a handful or more does tilt the scales.

Nobody's questioning the sports truism that athletes tend to hit their primes between the ages of 25-30. But, again, you're imposing the same sort of arbitrary cutoff points that he was. One or two players between 25-30? He doesn't think that there ought to be any at all. And why one or two? In fact, which ... one or two? And why 25 instead of his cutoff point of no freshmen older than 20?

But you're missing the larger point here, which is that sports on every level is replete with competitive advantages. Heck, competitive advantages are at the very heart of what intercollegiate athletics recruiting is all about. If I'm a D3 basketball coach, I'm going to try to recruit a player with low-post skills who is 6'8. Why? Because that gives me a competitive advantage over my league rivals who have centers that only stand 6'5. If I'm a baseball coach, I'm going to try to find a pitcher who can hit 90 on the radar gun with his fastball. Why? Because that's a heckuva lot harder than the typical D3 pitcher can throw, and it gives me a -- you guessed it -- competitive advantage over other D3 baseball teams.

We have a couple of posters here who spent the summer posting about the sprint times of Messiah recruits. Why focus upon the 40 times of soccer recruits? Competitive advantage.

So, do we tell D3 basketball coaches that there's now the equivalent of one of those "you must not be taller than x" signs at the kiddie rides at the county fair, that 6'8 players are now illegal because they're too tall? Are we going to make everybody who has ever been documented as having run a 4.7 40 or better ineligible for soccer? It's Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" all over again. Any intrinsic reason that makes one of your players better than the norm is now verboten. Age is no different than height or size or overly abundant fast-twitch thigh muscles in that regard.

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2018, 04:19:55 PM
You also missed that Mr.Right actually defended NPU, by saying folks (other than Wheaton) haven't really complained or even noticed that much before until NPU became a bigger deal.  And if NPU makes another Final Four you will surely hear even more complaints.

I didn't miss it. But if that's the kind of "defense" that he's going to offer, then you'll have to excuse me for not thanking him, because he devoted most of his post to attacking NPU for playing someone like Deni Cresto. What you missed is that Wheaton didn't complain about it. Wheaton complained about something completely different, which was my whole point in raising that incident. As for people complaining if NPU makes another Final Four, let them. The one thing upon which Mr. Right and I agree is that this whole argument is predicated upon North Park's success -- ergo, more complaints means more Vikings success, which I'm all in favor of.  ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on September 05, 2018, 04:38:05 PM
One other thing.  What D3 Presidents vote on has nothing to do with whether they specifically considered or would endorse a team of 25 year olds (or a majority or even handful) for D3 competition.  That's not to say they wouldn't allow it, but that's a far cry from an endorsement or something actually intended from a policy point of view.  And I think many of us would argue that such a scenario violates the spirit (if not the "rules") of D3 athletic competition.  For heaven sakes, IT IS D3, not a semi-professional league.

It has nothing at all to do with endorsement. The NCAA leadership hasn't set out to compile a midrash on how its rules should be used. It simply presents the rules, as is, without commentary.

Everything else you've said here is sheer speculation. To the best of my knowledge, nobody in any D3 sport has ever sought to construct a team of 25-year-olds, or one with a majority of 25-year-olds, or even one with a handful of 25-year-olds (however big a handful is). There's an obvious cultural reason for that: 25-year-olds in our society aren't typically full-time students who don't have full-time jobs that eliminate their opportunity to participate in intercollegiate athletics. In terms of the overall D3 student-athlete population, 25-year-olds are always going to be as rare as hen's teeth. And, since nobody's getting paid to don a D3 uniform, "semi-professional" doesn't enter into it.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 05, 2018, 04:27:23 PM
Would you allow me to give you a solid punch in the face? Kind of a brotherly love type thing.

Really? A physical threat? How old are you, anyway?
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell