MBB: Northwest Conference

Started by The Show, March 06, 2005, 08:40:16 PM

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Gregory Sager

Quote from: PointSpecial on March 07, 2007, 09:45:41 AMThere's an extreme difference between "could compete with DII teams" and "should move to DII."  The first could definately be seen as a compliment; the Pointers and others in their conference are good enough to compete with schools that offer scholarships and the implication is that DII teams are better because of this fact.  The second has tinges of elitism or jealousy

You're assuming intent here, PS, and that's unfair to Coach Hayford. Yes, it's true that someone could want to get the WIAC out of D3 because of either elitism or envy. But it's equally as true that someone could want to get the WIAC out of D3 because of a sincere conviction that the schools of the WIAC fit the typical institutional profile of D2 (more publics than privates, with the student bodies of the publics ranging from 5,000-12,000 undergraduates) much better than they fit the typical institutional profile of D3 (far more privates than publics, most student bodies in the 1,000-3,000 undergraduate range).

Quote from: PointSpecial on March 07, 2007, 09:45:41 AMAnd stating that the WIAC has more in common with DII teams isn't the case either.  I gave plenty of examples of public schools, and there's another striking difference... the WIAC DOES NOT GIVE ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIPS.  The WIAC plays by the same rules as everyone else.

That's the salient point, and the one that should be held uppermost in this debate. If a school is willing to eschew athletic scholarships and consents to live by the rules of D3, then there should be a place for that school in D3. However, the point remains that WIAC schools do match the typical institutional profile of D2 schools much more than they do the typical institutional profile of D3 schools. Much has been made of the striking similarity in institutional profiles between the schools of D2's Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference (Winona State, Bemidji State, UM-Crookston, etc.) and the WIAC right across the river. Seven of the ten NSIC schools are publics, and here's their sizes in terms of undergrads:

Bemidji State5,000
UM-Crookston2,775
MSU-Moorhead7,638
Northern State2,200
Southwest Minnesota State7,003
Wayne State3,300
Winona State8,000

And here's the size of the WIAC schools:

UW-Eau Claire10,500
UW-LaCrosse  8,746
UW-Oshkosh11,242
UW-Platteville  5,600
UW-River Falls  5,800
UW-Stevens Point  8,775
UW-Stout  7,400
UW-Superior  2,900
UW-Whitewater10,632

Not only are the two groups similar, if anything the WIAC schools tend on average to be slightly larger than their D2 neighbors to the west.

Of course, school size isn't necessarily a determinant for anything in sports, because athletes tend to be recruited rather than drawn from among the general student population in D3. If school size determined athletic success, NYU (undergrad enrollment: 17,475) would be winning the Director's Cup every year, and Williams (undergrad enrollment: 1,936) would be just another anonymous D3 school in terms of sports. But school size is relevant when you're talking about typical institutional profiles within an NCAA division.

As PS said, being a public doesn't necessarily give a D3 school a leg up on anything, as is demonstrated by all of the publics in the eastern half of D3 that are not particularly distinguished in terms of athletics. While many of those eastern publics are much smaller than WIAC schools, there are at least two leagues whose schools are of comparable size (SUNYAC and LEC) and one whose schools tend to be considerably larger in terms of undergraduates (CUNYAC). None of those conferences has exactly covered itself in glory on the field of play in D3.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

John Gleich

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 08, 2007, 01:54:47 AM
While many of those eastern publics are much smaller than WIAC schools, there are at least two leagues whose schools are of comparable size (SUNYAC and LEC) and one whose schools tend to be considerably larger in terms of undergraduates (CUNYAC). None of those conferences has exactly covered itself in glory on the field of play in D3.

And this reason, in an of itself, is why there IS something more to the fact that the WIAC is annually (if not more frequently) singled out as the conference that "doesn't belong."  As was pointed out by Oxybob earlier, Coach Hayford didn't have similar comments when his team whitewashed UC Santa Cruz by 24 and 45 earlier this year.  In fact, the Banana Slugs were a team that was ADDED to the schedule in November!

http://www.whitworth.edu/Athletics/Teams/Basketball_Men/Releases/06_07/ReedChange.htm

Note the quote there that "We need to play a game that will count toward our overall record."
That is something recognized by the WW coaching staff as well as by the NCAA, and there was no note that 'UCSC should really be DII, but we'll play them anyway.'

But, actually, my earlier comments:

Quote from: PointSpecial on March 07, 2007, 09:45:41 AMThere's an extreme difference between "could compete with DII teams" and "should move to DII."  The first could definately be seen as a compliment; the Pointers and others in their conference are good enough to compete with schools that offer scholarships and the implication is that DII teams are better because of this fact.  The second has tinges of elitism or jealousy

were more addressing bbaddict than Coach Hayford:

Quote from: bbaddict on March 07, 2007, 01:49:03 AM
And, why doesn't the WIAC see it as a compliment that someone thinks they should play DII? 
(emphasis added)

I'm willing to give Coach Hayford a pass on this and my discussion has been more geared TOWARD the discussion than merely at him.

But it does make me wonder why it is JUST the WIAC that it singled out year after year after year...  There are other DIII schools who are in the same situation as the WIAC, with one marked difference... the other schools haven't had the success on the National level with the frequency of the WIAC.
UWSP Men's Basketball

National Champions: 2015, 2010, 2005, 2004

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bucs77

willing to give him a pass?
   Please let my post be the last we hear of all of this.  Hayford simply meant that they would be a better fit in d2, which they would.  But who cares?  there is still a good amount of the post season to be played.   Lets talk about the season we have left before the "snore"..............."snore"  NBA post season has to come around

John Gleich

Quote from: bucs77 on March 08, 2007, 01:26:40 PM
Hayford simply meant that they would be a better fit in d2, which they would.

I'm willing to drop, but your statement is purely opinion.  Like I said before, there are other publics in DIII.  There are other schools with a large number of students.  But there aren't any conferences who have had the success  the WIAC has had, and this is why the entire subject gets brought up.  Every year.  The same arguments are made.

Moving on, though... which team is the favorite next season?  Does Witworth return a lot of players?  Will UPS get back to the success they've had recently, or will another school step up and be the front runner?
UWSP Men's Basketball

National Champions: 2015, 2010, 2005, 2004

NCAA appearances: 2018, '15, '14, '13, '12, '11, '10, '09, '08, '07, '05, '04, '03, '00, 1997

WIAC/WSUC Champs: 2015, '14, '13, '11, '09, '07, '05, '03, '02, '01, '00, 1993, '92, '87, '86, '85, '84, '83, '82, '69, '61, '57, '48, '42, '37, '36, '35, '33, '18

Twitter: @JohnGleich

bbaddict

For next year in the NWC?  Whitworth is losing a lot of horses -- unless Hayford recruits some JC transfers (which he usually does), they're going to be in a rebuilding mode.  Lewis & Clark, however, didn't have a single senior & they looked good this year (co-champs for NWC).  Also, Willamette, my favorite team, has a lot of returning talent and hopefully won't be  plagued with injury and ineligibility issues next year.  So, my bets are on LC & Willamette.  Whitworth, UPS & GFU usually are forces to contend with and don't underestimate the Pacific team.    Guess it's just a tough conference.  Even this year, no one knew how the top three was shaking out until the last week of games!  We knew who was in the top 3, just not the order!

That said, I'll just have to go back to "Go Bearcats!"

UPSoundLogs

I agree with bbaddict, the conference will be tough again next year.  WW will need some serious recruiting/JC transfers to stay on top...I'm not saying its out of the question but it will be very tough for them.  LC will be really good again next year, as bbaddict said they are returning everyone.  I'm not so sure about Willamette though, they will need some guys to play a lot better next year. I thought Nugent was very impressive this year, but in generel I thought they were pretty weak all around(yes I realize they had lots of injuries and played without some of their best guys).  Pacific will be dangerous too. 

Obviously I'm biased but I really think UPS will be right back on top next year.  They had five all conference players this year and they don't graduate anybody.  For the 07-08 season they won't have to deal with a first year head coach, they will actually have some senior leadership, and they will have a legit post player(he was hurt all year) so that Foster and Krauel won't have to play inside all the time against bigger players.  I think It's gonna be the Loggers and the Pioneers battling for first place next year. 
I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

bbaddict

So, does that mean that UPS is going to make Lunt their "real" coach, not just interim?  Are they still looking for a replacement for Bridgeland or have they just not updated their website to reflect thta their head coach is Lunt?

As for Willamette's team.  They only had one returning starter this year (Ian Mansfield) after Josh Erickson got hurt again.  So, all those guys were newbies -- no wonder they didn't look that good.  But they have a good coach & I'm confident that they'll be back better than ever next year! 

bbaddict

Quote from: UPSoundLogs on March 09, 2007, 04:29:28 PMI'm not so sure about Willamette though, they will need some guys to play a lot better next year. I thought Nugent was very impressive this year, but in generel I thought they were pretty weak all around(yes I realize they had lots of injuries and played without some of their best guys).

Interesting that you think this UPSoundlogs since WU only lost to UPS by 3 in 3OT and got soundly beat by them in Salem 119-108.  I was at both games and neither team looked weak to me!  I guess we'll just see next year!  One thing is for sure & that is the NWC is getting stronger.  So, here's to two NWC men's teams in NCAA playoffs next year!
(The women usually manage it, so why not?)

UPSoundLogs

Bbaddict-

Good point, I guess Lunt isn't the official head coach yet so I shouldn't get ahead of myself.  However, from what I have heard it sounds like he will be sticking around.  He'd get my vote anyways, I thought he did a great job this year.  

As for WU, I also expect bigger things from them next year.  I like some of their players, especially Nugent(I think he has POY potential), and I think they will improve greatly from this year.  I just don't see them as being a serious contender for the championship next year, I think they will be more of a third/forth place team.  

Anyone else besides me and bbad have some predictions/insight for next year?  Bucs, bigfella, pinecone....Gil?
I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

UPSoundLogs

#939
"Interesting that you think this UPSoundlogs since WU only lost to UPS by 3 in 3OT and got soundly beat by them in Salem 119-108" - BBaddict

Ouch...I was suprised when you didn't mention that in your previous post, I thought maybe I snuck one by you.  And you are right that WU made UPS look pretty bad this year.  I went to the WU/UPS game in Tacoma and in my opinion neither team played very well that game.  Don't get me wrong it was very exciting...but very ugly.  I'm not sure what it is, Willamette just doesn't look as good to me as LC and UPS for next year...they don't look like a championship contender to me.  For all I know they will prove me wrong though, so we will just have to wait and see. 
I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

bigfella

You can never count Whitworth out of the equation.  They will always get good transfers.  The power to get players out there is for real. 

LC has to be counted in the mix, especially if no one is leaving and if Gaillard is out there hunting down players to help get them better.

UPS is sort of a question mark to me, though.  The talent was illmatic, and they will bring in more players, but the swagger wasn't there this year.  And, Bridge kind of put that swagger in those kids.  I wonder if that has been lost with Eric gone.  Just a thought.

Pacific will be tough.  They keep getting better and they don't lose much from this year's team.  The surprise might be PLU.  They are freaky athletic, capable of putting hurts on people.

I  think it will be a four dog race, with any of the other teams able to put hits on anyone.  Look out for Willamette, too.  They are always scary, especially if they are not supposed to win.

bbaddict

Quote from: bigfella on March 10, 2007, 01:19:28 AM
You can never count Whitworth out of the equation.  They will always get good transfers.  The power to get players out there is for real. 

LC has to be counted in the mix, especially if no one is leaving and if Gaillard is out there hunting down players to help get them better.

UPS is sort of a question mark to me, though.  The talent was illmatic, and they will bring in more players, but the swagger wasn't there this year.  And, Bridge kind of put that swagger in those kids.  I wonder if that has been lost with Eric gone.  Just a thought.

Pacific will be tough.  They keep getting better and they don't lose much from this year's team.  The surprise might be PLU.  They are freaky athletic, capable of putting hurts on people.

I  think it will be a four dog race, with any of the other teams able to put hits on anyone.  Look out for Willamette, too.  They are always scary, especially if they are not supposed to win.

Not sure what you mean about Willamette when they're "not supposed to win."  Just the past 6 seasons, they've been in the top 3 teams (NWC playoff calibre) 4 out of 6 times!  I think people expect Willamette to win.

I do think that UPS & LC will be forces to contend with because they aren't graduating anyone this year.  But Whitworth will be doing some serious rebuilding without Bryan Williams, James Jones, Kevin Hasenfus, and Jon Young and I'm pretty sure they know it.  The only bench players that saw significant playing time were Jurich & Symes, so I think they're going to be in the boat Williamette was in this year -- little or no leadership!  They might have lots of talent, but you need someone who understands the plays & can lead others.  Willamette did a lot better when Erickson, Plank & Stuvland were able to play -- unfortunately, not at the same time.   Willamette's team this year was young -- but they did give UPS a run for their money!

You could be right bigfella, but don't bet the farm on it!

bigfella

I would guess that Willamette will not be picked to finish in the top three of the league, thus, they are not expected to win.  No desrespect for them, just saying the truth of the matter.  That makes a team tougher in most cases.  At least to me.  The way they are coached makes them a threat no matter how strong of a team they have.  But, I think they will have to have a very strong recruiting class to be where they have been.  Olinger and Stuvland were a great backcourt, with a sprinkle of Fife and Erickson.  I loved those combos.  Good guards do it in this league.  I think Willamette needs to refuel in that regard.  The lefty is pretty good though.  Smith, I think....

NWCer

Has Hayford ever had a down year at Whitworth?  I don't think so, he loses A LOT, but I think the Pirates will find a way to be in the hunt, maybe not for the title, but for the playoffs.

If LC is not everyone's favorite than something is wrong, everyone back from a championship squad, and a veteran coach.

UPS will be right there, whether the interim guy gets the job or not.

My Boxers should be right there.  I just can't wait to see VanDomlen for the entire year.

Those are the 4 I see in the hunt for the 3 playoff spots, but ofcourse Willamette will be there pushing.  Just looking at the rosters it seems like Fox (Heu Weller/Parker) and Whitman (Born) lose a ton, PLU seems to have their top guys back, and once again, being a Pacific fan, it is great seeing Linfield down at the bottom ;D 

oldnwcer

Just wanted to make an observation to you all about this weekends elite eight.
It speaks well of Whitworth and the Northwest Conference when the teams that beat our representatives at the NCAAs go on and do well.  You may have not noticed but Wash U didn't have too difficult of a time getting by Stevens Pt to get to the Final Point.  I think it says volumes about Whitworth, LC, UPS and the overall strength of our league.

And as for next year, I like LC and UPS, but do not count out Pacific and Whitworth.  I guarantee you that there will be additions to both squads that will make them both top level teams, and then Willamette and PLU will be very dangerous. That only leaves Fox, Whitman and Linfield as true non contenders.
I guess it doesn't take a lot of brains to put everyone in the mix.