FB: Commonwealth Coast Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 04:57:52 AM

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D3 Fan

Johnny all I can say is that I know.  (believe me or don't) it doesn't matter much to me.  I know what I've been told and trust the people who have told me.  Do you really think that there will be written documentation to back my statement or contradict it?

In the mix what I am saying is that in the NEFC if you have a school that is dedicated to winning football games and support the team and coaches there is no reason that you shouldn't be contending regardless of having a program that has been in existence for only 4 years.  I am not bashing the EC program or coaches because I know they have worked hard to be competitive.  They have done a great job coaching their kids and have put them in a position to win.

Quoteany school in the NEFC and the US can do this stuff to EARN money for their teams.  all is takes is a little organization.
I go back to school support and full time coaches.   Not that other programs can not raise money but the time and the effort for part time coaches or for programs without the support of their administration put's them at a disadvantage.

Quoteas far as the academic standards, EC has some of the highest standards for academics within the NEFC. Yes, they may give academic aid for payment, but the $4,000 max benefit doesn't really make a dent in the $30,000 + payment for a year

Come on.... can you really say with a straight face that EC, at least in the first 2 years, didn't let in some players without questionable academic records? $4000 might not make a dent but what player doesn't want to be able to say that he received a scholarship to play???  If the administration supports the program coaches get the players they want regardless of their grades or financial need...


d3fan06

EVERY SCHOOL in the NEFC (and beyand, NESCACs etc) have players that might not meet the highest academic standards of their respective schools.

However, I do not think it is the case at Endicott, or any other NEFC that they just open the doors and say "come on in" just because you play football. I think if you looked across the board at the entire class (all students - not just football) at any school you will see a certain percentage of students that are admitted with a lower academic profile - for whatever reason. I would hope and imagine that the football programs in the NEFC would mirror - percentage-wise - the same number of "tips" or whatever you would like to call them.

With 29 or 30 seniors (according to the schools website), it appears that Endicott has retained much of that large class and that the guys who were allegedly "tipped" in are still in school and apparently on track to graduate in 4 years.

THAT is ultimately the goal in D3.

waggle09


Bottom line in life and football, is what you put into it is what you get out of it..
I know that that many of the schools run a real strict off- season program and that some of the schools actually get out to the high schools and recruit energetically and with conviction. Others will make a phone call here and there
and send out a form letter. I do believe that the programs with full time head coaches are more committed in BUILDING A PROGRAM.... Plus let's remember that it is not just the head coach but the STAFF that helps make a winning program...Although I do know that the private schools recruit good players that  would not get into any of the state schools...unbelievable....

Jonny Utah

Quote from: D3 Fan on August 20, 2006, 11:42:58 PM
Johnny all I can say is that I know.  (believe me or don't) it doesn't matter much to me.  I know what I've been told and trust the people who have told me.  Do you really think that there will be written documentation to back my statement or contradict it?

In the mix what I am saying is that in the NEFC if you have a school that is dedicated to winning football games and support the team and coaches there is no reason that you shouldn't be contending regardless of having a program that has been in existence for only 4 years.  I am not bashing the EC program or coaches because I know they have worked hard to be competitive.  They have done a great job coaching their kids and have put them in a position to win.

Quoteany school in the NEFC and the US can do this stuff to EARN money for their teams.  all is takes is a little organization.
I go back to school support and full time coaches.   Not that other programs can not raise money but the time and the effort for part time coaches or for programs without the support of their administration put's them at a disadvantage.

Quoteas far as the academic standards, EC has some of the highest standards for academics within the NEFC. Yes, they may give academic aid for payment, but the $4,000 max benefit doesn't really make a dent in the $30,000 + payment for a year

Come on.... can you really say with a straight face that EC, at least in the first 2 years, didn't let in some players without questionable academic records? $4000 might not make a dent but what player doesn't want to be able to say that he received a scholarship to play???  If the administration supports the program coaches get the players they want regardless of their grades or financial need...



First of all Coast Guard AND Plymouth St are joining the NEFC so you were wrong there. 

Second of all, there was no requirement in terms of athletic budgets when it came joining the conference.  Mt Ida, Plymouth St and Coast Guard would have totally different approaches to the way each budget was run anyway.  Email the Mt. Ida AD and she will tell you why they were not invited to the NEFC.  It had nothing to do with budgets.  And I think she would know.

----------------

Now, Endicott has most definetly let in students that are below the academic bar at the school, but that is the case with ALL NEFC schools with maybe of exception of some mass state schools whose coaches are not able to adjust the formula that each school has in regards to letting students in.

And $4000?  Who came up with this number?  Students can get tens of thouands of dollars AT ANY school they want to go to if that school recieves federal funds.



D3 Fan

QuoteFirst of all Coast Guard AND Plymouth St are joining the NEFC so you were wrong there.

You got me there Johnny considering my statement about Mt. Ida, PSC, and CC attempting to join the league had nothing to do with this year.  Yes I know CC and PSC are entering the NEFC this year but Mt. Ida and PSC petitioned the league 4 years ago (which is what I was referring to).  Are you sure I'm wrong Johnny or did you misunderstand my statement?

When teams petition the NEFC to join they are asked to put together a portfolio, so to speak, about their school, admission policies, as well as budget and more.  There are many factors that are weighed when programs are accepted or denied into the league.  My comments regarding the acceptance or denial of those teams very much had to do with budgets!  As I said, unless you or the AD were in those discussion meetings you can not prove or disprove what I said.  Believe; don't believe, it doesn't much matter to me.  I was just trying to have an informative discussion about the league based on my knowledge, beliefs and thoughts which is what I thought we did here.

The $4000 quote came from InTheMix.  I agree that students can get a lot of financial aide if they qualify.  What the private schools can do is offer extra incentives in the form of grants.  In some schools coaches have a say who and how much a perspective player might get.  For the most part, at least in the NEFC, State schools don't have that luxary.

Yes, all schools can get certain players in.  The Ivy's have there own academic index that players must fall with in for a player to be accepted.  They get a couple that is even lower every year but these are for the blue chippers with pretty high academic indexes to begin with.  The question is how many a coach is allowed by the institution.  The Mass State schools are supposed to have the same criteria. The privates make their own.  This puts the State schools at a disadvantage but it can also work against the private schools. 

Mt. Ida, for example, when they were starting a program, let everyone in.  The problem with that was a high turnover rate year to year.  New faces every year make it tough to put a competitive product on the field.  Mt. Ida is starting to have success because they've tightened up their admission policies (opinion) and are keeping kids in the program for 3 and 4 years.  Does that mean that the same student athlete at Mt. Ida or other privates will get into the State schools?  Some, yes, but most, I don't know.  I do know that in the past players who couldn't get into there first choice used a school like Mt. Ida as a stepping stone to get their grades up so that they could transfer out.

d3fan06

With the non-scholarship nature of D3 it is ILLEGAL for coaches to have a say in how much "grant" a student-athlete receives. That is an NCAA rule so that the average grant packages given to student-athletes must mirror that of the general student population.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: D3 Fan on August 21, 2006, 09:56:01 PM
QuoteFirst of all Coast Guard AND Plymouth St are joining the NEFC so you were wrong there.

You got me there Johnny considering my statement about Mt. Ida, PSC, and CC attempting to join the league had nothing to do with this year.  Yes I know CC and PSC are entering the NEFC this year but Mt. Ida and PSC petitioned the league 4 years ago (which is what I was referring to).  Are you sure I'm wrong Johnny or did you misunderstand my statement?

When teams petition the NEFC to join they are asked to put together a portfolio, so to speak, about their school, admission policies, as well as budget and more.  There are many factors that are weighed when programs are accepted or denied into the league.  My comments regarding the acceptance or denial of those teams very much had to do with budgets!  As I said, unless you or the AD were in those discussion meetings you can not prove or disprove what I said.  Believe; don't believe, it doesn't much matter to me.  I was just trying to have an informative discussion about the league based on my knowledge, beliefs and thoughts which is what I thought we did here.

The $4000 quote came from InTheMix.  I agree that students can get a lot of financial aide if they qualify.  What the private schools can do is offer extra incentives in the form of grants.  In some schools coaches have a say who and how much a perspective player might get.  For the most part, at least in the NEFC, State schools don't have that luxary.

Yes, all schools can get certain players in.  The Ivy's have there own academic index that players must fall with in for a player to be accepted.  They get a couple that is even lower every year but these are for the blue chippers with pretty high academic indexes to begin with.  The question is how many a coach is allowed by the institution.  The Mass State schools are supposed to have the same criteria. The privates make their own.  This puts the State schools at a disadvantage but it can also work against the private schools. 

Mt. Ida, for example, when they were starting a program, let everyone in.  The problem with that was a high turnover rate year to year.  New faces every year make it tough to put a competitive product on the field.  Mt. Ida is starting to have success because they've tightened up their admission policies (opinion) and are keeping kids in the program for 3 and 4 years.  Does that mean that the same student athlete at Mt. Ida or other privates will get into the State schools?  Some, yes, but most, I don't know.  I do know that in the past players who couldn't get into there first choice used a school like Mt. Ida as a stepping stone to get their grades up so that they could transfer out.


Im not saying your totally wrong.  But you wrote it like budgets were the main reason mt ida didnt get it.  (and then you threw USCGA and PSU in there) But I actually spoke to the Mt. Ida AD about it once and the budget wasnt really a reason at all.    She told me the NEFC didnt allow Mt. Ida to get into the NEFC because the NEFC didnt want Mt Ida in the NEFC.  Its really that simple.  Like any job interview, the final decision is going to come down to factors that can never be accounted for in a portfolio.  Formalities have to be gone through in any interview but in the end the employer gets what he wants.  Mt. Ida could have had the perfect budget for the NEFC and it still wouldnt have gotten in.  Maybe you know someone on the NEFC committee that told you otherwise.  I can only base what I know on what the Mt. Ida AD told me in an informal conversation.

You cant really account for budgets anyway.  Coast Guard basically has the US Treasury as a budget, and Plymouth St has basically whatever it can get that it asks for.  A college budget is whatever the trustees want to give out.  So Framingham State can literally get money from Romney or the Legislature.  MIT can get money from its billions in endowment.  New fields and lockerooms are usually not included in budgets either.

InTheMix

yes, the $4000 came from me because that is the max amount of money that Endicott can give for any academic scholarship.

63Center

The $4000 scholarships at EC are the presidential scholarships given to students maintaining a 3.0 GPA or better.  There are other scholarships offered for specific purposes such as nursing or teaching students that are for larger amounts.  I agree with Johnny Utah, that schools can have various budgets but rarely sink the money into the football program.  Aside from having a fulltime coaching staff at EC I don't see them spending a great deal on the program.  Obviuosly they spent a lot of money to start with since they had to build a new field and get equipment, but any new program would do that.  In regards to the full time coaches they also have other jobs at the school and don't just sit around thnking about football.   As to how a team gets into the NEFC, I would assume that Johnny Utah's analogy to a job interview is probably close.  I also agree with D3Fan  that this is a good forum for discussion and at the end of the day, does it really matter who said what and where they got that information.  It is great to have this forum for this type of discussion.  Keep it going

Jonny Utah

Heres my two cents about Endicott and why I think they are going to be the best team in the NEFC in the near future.

1) The coaching staff.  Not only is this coaching staff full time, but they work their asses off and know what theyre doing.  Theyre all expereinced, professional and bottomline good coaches.  They also recruit better and more kids than any other NEFC school.  They know the game.

2) The school itself is a pretty good school.  Academically it doesnt compare to Ithaca, Union or Hobart, but its almost up there with some of the NE-10 schools (Assumption, St. Anslems).  And Its a few big steps over Curry and all the state schools.  Its getting better too.

3) Good Location.  Not in Boston but close enough and far enough to get a good college experience.  Nice campus and good facilities (from what I hear).  Also a great recruiting area (Eastern Mass/NH)

Negatives:

-Not cheap
-Newer School (no tradition)

-

63Center

Johnny Utah, I agree with everything you stated about Endicott.  In addition they have an administration that wants football and understands the importance of it to the school.  They started the program to attract more male students since only about 20 years ago it was an all -girl school and so that the Athletic Training prgram could gain expereince with the type of injuries you see in football. 

JB Wells the head coach is an excellent coach and has a lot of experience for a young coach and is very selective regarding the players he wants.  Since the prgram is new, he realizes that he has to have players that are willing to work hard and to represnet the school well.  He has passed over kids that were good players but had some discipline problems and poor work ethics.  Yes, that is an advantage to a private school.

D3 Fan

In the mix I wasn't talking about scholarships but grant money.  D3 Fan 06, yes it is illegal but tell me it doesn't happen!!!

QuoteIn addition they have an administration that wants football and understands the importance of it to the school.

63 center that's my point.  That makes all the difference.

In regards to the full time coach issue, who has the advantage?  The guy who coaches and works in athletics all day or the guy who has to teach all day or do another job?  On Monday afternoon during the season I'll bet you that the full time staff has already broken down and is into big time game plan discussions.  The part time staff is just getting to the office and is in the process of breaking the film down.  10pm; Full time staff has game plan complete, leaving office to go home.  Part time staff has somewhat of a working game plan in place but it still needs a great deal of refinement, going home for the night.

Tuesday 8am---full time staff have a staff meeting (go over any business, plan practice)
      ---part time staff teaching first class of the day
9am---full time break off into offensive and defensive meetings, review film, revise game plan.
      ---part time teaching 2nd class of the day

12:00pm, full time staff have lunch and begin to meet with players who have time to stop into the offices to review game plan.  Also, they get a chance to get a quick workout in.
---part time staff is still teaching and have yet to converse with other coaches about game plan.

3pm---full time staff getting ready for practice, part time just arriving to the campus.  Part time staff has a few minutes to talk while getting dressed for practice.

This schedule continues for the week, every week during the season.  Who do you think has the advantage?  Never mind the advantage of having 1 full time guy who is dedicated to recruiting during the off season.  I think you know my opinion...

63Center

I looked back over the last 6 years at the NEFC champs.  Three were state Schools (UMD, Bridgewater St. and Westfield St.) and three were Private (Curry).  Prior to that there were co-champs from each division.  I know that Curry had a fulltime coach during those years (Nelson) and as I understand it UMD has a part-time coach.  I am not sure about the others, but based on the last 6 years it appears to be pretty even regarding State vs. Private schools.   Fitchburg State appears to have a pretty good program going.  I'm not sure about the coach's status (FT or PT). I believe that football success has more to do with the administration's interest in football than whether it is a state or private school.  Look at Framingham, according to a number  of messages here last year, the administration does not  care about football and it shows in the records over the last few years. 

AptosDad

D3fan wrote: EVERY SCHOOL in the NEFC (and beyand, NESCACs etc) have players that might not meet the highest academic standards of their respective schools.

This suggests that a high school or JC player with exceptional football skills will get a NEFC school administrator to overlook a questionable academic record. The table just isn't that evenly.  You either have an excellent academic record, or you go somewhere other than MIT. My son's at MIT and I did everything (all legitimate) I thought I should that would help to get him in, but in the end, his football skills had nothing to do with his admittance.  He was a high school team captain and all-league honoree, but all football did was add another item to his list of diverse interests, which is what most academic schools are looking for.  I don't know where you pulled your claim about EVERY SCHOOL from, but I think you're wrong.

d3fan06

Perhaps my comment that ALL NEFC schools have exceptions was a "blanket statement".

I will agree whole-heartedly that MIT does not have the "tips" that the other NEFC schools do and that those student-athletes meet the standards of the rest of the insititution.

However, I will stick to my guns that most all the other schools have their exceptions.