MBB: Northwest Conference

Started by The Show, March 06, 2005, 08:40:16 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gilbert McFinnegan

PineCone, Pat-

I hate to do this as I am a NWC fan and want to see the conference succeed on the national scene.  However, this is a discussion board so let's discuss.

My concern is the "great leap" from 18 to 8. You both cite a realization of the comittee as seeing a new "value" in the win versus Wheaton as they beat Calvin and Hope.  It was a good win which cannot be denied, but Calvin is 3-3 and is no longer in the top 25 and Hope is 2-2 and ranked 21.  Yes, both teams have played relativiely tough schedules, but it was WHEATON that beat Calvin and Hope and not Whitworth.  When you retroactively put value of wins based on other teams' future performances it makes for akward justifications....You know, the one's we all make around tournament time.  I think last year's was the best when another NWC follower in to office told me about something he read that started with CalTech...who beat a SCIAC team...that beat WW...who beat UPS..who beat UC Riverside...who beat Pacific...and it eventually got linked to beating Duke.  I think you see my point.

In regards to the WW no. 8 ranking in and of itself....Yes, there is something to say for consistency in winning 9 games straight (even if 5 of them were against teams with losing records, including Bethany and CalTech).  WW may be the 8th best team in the land, only time, and possibly the tournament will tell. 

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Gilbert McFinnegan on December 06, 2006, 07:46:03 PM
PineCone, Pat-

I hate to do this as I am a NWC fan and want to see the conference succeed on the national scene.  However, this is a discussion board so let's discuss.

My concern is the "great leap" from 18 to 8. You both cite a realization of the comittee as seeing a new "value" in the win versus Wheaton as they beat Calvin and Hope.  It was a good win which cannot be denied, but Calvin is 3-3 and is no longer in the top 25 and Hope is 2-2 and ranked 21.  Yes, both teams have played relativiely tough schedules, but it was WHEATON that beat Calvin and Hope and not Whitworth.  When you retroactively put value of wins based on other teams' future performances it makes for akward justifications....You know, the one's we all make around tournament time.

You have to look at it within the context of the season, Gilbert. Jumping ten rungs up the ladder in early December is not the same thing as jumping ten rungs up the ladder in January or February. The season is still very young, so a greater fluidity in terms of movement up and down the rankings should be expected.

Quote from: Gilbert McFinnegan on December 06, 2006, 07:46:03 PMI think last year's was the best when another NWC follower in to office told me about something he read that started with CalTech...who beat a SCIAC team...that beat WW...who beat UPS..who beat UC Riverside...who beat Pacific...and it eventually got linked to beating Duke.

Your officemate slipped up. Caltech hasn't beaten a fellow SCIAC team since ... what? 1987? 1988? Something like that. It's close to twenty years, if not more than twenty years. I'm sure someone on the SCIAC board would know this.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

(509)Rat

First off, I'm with Pineconefan on the Whitworth ranking.  Plus, it does you no good complaining about it right now since their is no BCS system in college basketball.  Based on the players on this years team, a team who competed with a UPS team who made a good run in the playoffs (not only competed but outscored 289-274 in their three meetings), and the quality win over wheaton, at wheaton, plus two conference victories...I don't think the #8 spot is completely undeserving. 

CalTech is 0-242 in conference games, that means the last time they beat a SCIAC team was 21 years (going on 22) ago and have lost 195 in a row against NCAA opponents.  That streak is even more impressive than Linfield's football winning streak.

UPSoundLogs

I think Gil has a legit point in questioning how Whitworth could have possibly jumped 10 spots in one week ??? I'm also pretty confused on how that could have happened ???  However, I'm all for the NWC having success on the national level (yes, even if it is WW)...and I think G Sager had a clear cut explaination that makes good sense, his use of the word "fluidity" in discribing the young seasons rankings really topped it off for me, I just can't argue with that.

On another note...

Rat- after Mr. Sager's perfectly good explaination about the rankings you came in and succesfully screwed the pooch with yours.   I would love to know who is complaining about a BCS system in basketball?  Just curious where that cam from :-\? But lets go ahead and put your BCS remark on the pack burner for now.  The fact that you have tried to justify THIS YEARS Whitworth team being ranked 8th because of wins over LAST YEARS UPS squad will baffle the mind of anyone who knows anything about sports rankings ???

Although I should add, you cited a very meaningful statistic (sarcastic if you can't tell) in adding up LAST YEARS point totals from the matchups between UPS and WW... very crucial info ... I'm pretty sure the only stat that really means anything from LAST YEARS games between the two teams is 2-1, the amount of times UPS beat WW which I will remind you once again was LAST YEAR, meaning it doesn't matter in any way for THIS YEAR!!! Both WW and UPS have much different players than LAST YEARS teams.  THIS YEAR yes, Whitworth has a quality win over a very good Wheaton team, that is a fact that is OK for you to discuss.  Furthermore, If you have any questions about ground breaking statistics you would like to throw out there in the future why don't you go ahead and run your idea past a knowledgeable source first (and no the BCS board does not count they do football rankings this is basketball ;) ).   Keep on truckin!!!
I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

pineconefan

Bearcats, you make really good points about Willamette's injury situation.  When I listed Willamette as not doing as well as expected, that was just surface observation, without going into great detail.

I am sure Coach James will have things turned in the right direction when it counts.
"A foolish man is no more unhappy than an illiterate horse." - Erasmus

pineconefan

Logs - I am pretty sure if you reread Rats' post, you will see he indicated that the current ranking is not too important because there is NOT a BCS style system.  So it was a good idea to leave that comment alone.

But you were correct on the second point, last year's results against UPS, or anyone else, have no bearing at all on this year's rankings.
"A foolish man is no more unhappy than an illiterate horse." - Erasmus

UPSoundLogs

pcone- It's nice to see an informed bucks fan over there in Spokane ;D

I also agree with you and bcats about the WU injury situation, they would be a much better team with Stuvland back in my opinion.  I'm not as sure about the other guys that are out though, it looks like more effective players have stepped up in their absence, especially the freshman Nugent (I think that's his name?).  That's just from watching them play one game though. 

Bcats-is stuvland out with an injury or because of eligibility reasons?  I heard from someone that he only had half a year of eligibility left, do you know one way or the other?  Do you know when he will be back?  WU will be more dangerous with him I just hope they don't lose too many games early on, at the rate they are going they may dig too big of a hole for themselves by the time stuvland is back. 
I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

(509)Rat

Whitworth has a bunch of players returning, from a team last year who was top 25 caliber...meaning they have the talent this year to be a top 25 team...It wasn't a good argument but i think it does show that Whitorth is good enough to be in the top 10 (on paper) and have backed it up with a quality win on the road...something UPS has yet to do.

UPSoundLogs

Rat- I'm pretty sure that last years "top 25 Caliber" (but they never actually made it there) WW team that you speak of had two guys named Pecht who happened to be the NWC player of the year and Tucker who was second team all Conference.  Correct me if I'm wrong but both of those players graduated....meaning they no longer play on the WW team.  If I am correct in my assumptions it would be very hard, if not impossible, for me to believe WW is the same team on paper.  I fully agree with you that WW has a very good team this year, and that they were very solid last year as well for that matter, but they in no way have the same impact players (besides bwillams) as they did last year.  I do however, apprecaite your quasi explanation of your last post, I now look at you as slightly less crazy...keep up the good work!!!
I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

Gilbert McFinnegan

Quote from: (509)Rat on December 07, 2006, 03:39:17 AM
First off, I'm with Pineconefan on the Whitworth ranking.  Plus, it does you no good complaining about it right now since their is no BCS system in college basketball.  Based on the players on this years team, a team who competed with a UPS team who made a good run in the playoffs (not only competed but outscored 289-274 in their three meetings), and the quality win over wheaton, at wheaton, plus two conference victories...I don't think the #8 spot is completely undeserving. 


509-
As far as my complaints I am sorry if my comments seem unbearable to some on the board.  I was under the impression that this was a discussion board.  I found the WW jump to #8 worthy of discussion.  I mean, come on, I know there is no BCS system in basketball. I found out that the DIII national tilte was not decided in the "March Madness Bowl" at least two months ago.  If this board is meant for merely reporting on everyone's favorite team (as is the trend in many of your last postings 509), let me help everyone out.  I found a site that can save everyone some time:  www.google.com

May I further justify my surprise:  I noticed earlier in the season the end of year 2005-2006 rankings with UPS #8 as well.  If my memory serves me correctly UPS earned this ranking after amassing its 3rd conference title, 25 wins, and a run to the elite 8 after beating both the SCIAC and CCIW champions.  But hey....WW did beat Wheaton and the rankings are very "fluid" this time of year.

bearcatsfan3

When the seniors from WU graduated last year, my "inside sources" to the team left...I will try to find out the situation with Stuvland, but I do know he had a full year left going into this season...


(509)Rat

QuoteIf this board is meant for merely reporting on everyone's favorite team (as is the trend in many of your last postings 509), let me help everyone out.

You are right, from now on I will start posting about every team but Whitworth...Oh wait, the Whitworth basketball team is the only team I stay pretty well informed on...my bad.

And you are exactly right about UPS being good last year, and Whitworth played with them (even beating them by close to 20 points) in every game.  I don't think Pecht is was that much better than Jones has been this year, and with Tucker on the team, there was no room for a guy like Symes, and Williams and Young got less touches because of it.  I think this is a better team with out those two...so cmoparing them with last year's team is perfectly valid in my opinion.  In fact, all 5 starters average double figures in scoring this year ( at least they did as of last week)...its a hell of a lot more balanced team this year than the 1-2 punch of Pecht and Tucker.

Not only does UPSoundLogs not understand the BCS, because who honestly cares about football at UPS?  But appearently doesn't know what a Buc is...as in Buccaneer...not deer (Buck).  Maybe Gilbert McFinnegan will rip on you too for only posting about your favorite team?

UPSoundLogs

whoa, Rat your measuring a little high on the Crazy-O-Meter again!  And just when I thought we had taken some steps in the right direction too...it's ok we are gonna get through this.

1) Jones is not even close to as good as Pecht, Sorry that's just the way it is.

2) I actually feel that I spread the love around the league when I post.  I'm obviously a UPS fun but I discuss many of our fine teams in the NWC.  WW, WU, GF, ...heck I even asked a few questions about PLU.  And if Gil does infact decide to "rip" on me, I'll take it and give it right back to him.  You see I like to take the "No excuses, play like a champion(Wedding Crashers)" approach.  I don't whine about it when someone "rips" me, unlike some people.

3) I actually do know a little about the BCS, I admittedly am not a huge Loggers football fan (even though they did have a good season this year) but seeing how they aren't a part of the BCS I don't think that should effect me too much.  I'm a big husky fan however (even though they did not have a good season...and haven't for a while) and they actually do use the BCS so I should be just fine, I apprecaite your concern for my football knowledge on a hoops site though, I like where your heads at.

4) Did you really correct my spelling of Buck's?  Geez, forget spell check I'm just gonna run all of my writing past you from now on.  I think I'm gonna spell it Bucks for the rest of the year now because you corrected my spelling of Bucks.  Bucks...Bucks...Bucks!!!

I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

Gilbert McFinnegan

Quote from: (509)Rat on December 07, 2006, 05:36:01 PM
QuoteIf this board is meant for merely reporting on everyone's favorite team (as is the trend in many of your last postings 509), let me help everyone out.

You are right, from now on I will start posting about every team but Whitworth...Oh wait, the Whitworth basketball team is the only team I stay pretty well informed on...my bad.

....Young got less touches because of it.

Not only does UPSoundLogs not understand the BCS, because who honestly cares about football at UPS?  But appearently doesn't know what a Buc is...as in Buccaneer...not deer (Buck).  Maybe Gilbert McFinnegan will rip on you too for only posting about your favorite team?

I think I am just misunderstood.  I have no problem with favorite teams.  I am not going to lie, I even have a favorite WNBA team: The Los Angeles Sparks.  I was referring to reporting on your team (giving us a score of the game), as oppose to discussing things about the game or the league or what not.  I just saw that you have given us WW scores throughout the board.  Actually, I prefer that you go ahead and stick to WW basketball, or UPS football as they seem to be areas of expertise.   

Sorry if I ripped anyone....did not mean to hurt feelings.

As far a Young not getting as many touches...Ever since I saw him play for WW, it has been clear that he has been a #1 scoring option for them.  Do you see how many double screens and pick and rolls with him as the three point option they run for him?  His lack of touches are due to his single dimension, 3 point shooting.  Granted, he is one of the deadliest shooters on the West Coast, but teams can focus on that and take it away much easier if he does not put the ball on the floor.  All the attention he gets opens the floor up for guys like Pecht  and now Symes and Williams.

Does anyone know how much it costs for a Pirate to get his ears pierced?

(509)Rat

So let me get this straight UPSoundLogs...I get criticized for comparing this year's Whitworth team to last year's team, but its totally ok for you to compare Jones from this year to Pecht from last year???  I guess it takes a nut to know one.  Oh yeah, Jones has also been Whitworth's leading scorer in 5 out of their nine games.  I like how you respond to only a very select few of the comments I make, at Gilby goes through pretty much point by point to argue with me...anyways, on to something more important that UPSoundLogs rambling.

QuoteGranted, he is one of the deadliest shooters on the West Coast, but teams can focus on that and take it away much easier if he does not put the ball on the floor.  All the attention he gets opens the floor up for guys like Pecht  and now Symes and Williams.

I have yet to see anyone double team him or even run some type of box and 1 on him, so I don't think this argument is as valid as it was last season.  And even last season Pecht was athletic enough that he created a lot of his own looks off the dribble, rather than Young being the one setting him up.  Young doesn't get nearly the attention he did during many games last year yet his teamates are putting up better numbers than they did last year.  This all goes back to me saying that Whitworth is better than they were last year, and last year they were a good team.