FB: American Rivers Conference

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doolittledog

Quote from: NewKnightDad on December 13, 2012, 08:16:27 AM
Unless Wartburg improves a bunch on the o-line they are going to be in for another 6-4 type of year.

Not the insightful prognostication you were looking for, it is the best I can do at this time.  ;)

Back in '06 - '07 you could make that post you just made and then the rest of the day would be filled with posts like...

Central fan - "O-line?  You need to find a QB or you'll be lucky to win 3 games"

Wartburg fan - "The Knights O-line will be fine, player X was injured last year and will be healthy next fall and I hear we have a D2 transfer that is supposed to be a beast."

Every now and then a Cornell/Dubuque/Luther fan would post something about their team only to get shot down with...

Central/Wartburg fan - "Your team is irrelevant.  Why are you even posting on here?  You're taking away from the rightful conversation about how Central/Wartburg rock."

I kind of miss those days.  Though I do like that any team can get talked about now...not just Central/Wartburg. 

I just wish there were more spies out there to tell my who Dubuque and other schools were able to recruit. 

NewKnightDad

I do believe that Wartburg skill positions will be fine, it will come down to winning the line of scrimmage.  That could be said for most teams I guess but Wartburg usually has better seasons when they can run the ball.  Last year needing a yard on 3rd down was not certain run situation like in years past. 

I wonder how many tackles for loss we gave up that were running plays in 2012?
Win or lose we still booze!!

notlongago

Quote from: doolittledog on December 12, 2012, 10:26:02 PM
Quote from: notlongago on December 12, 2012, 08:54:20 PM
Gotta love pokin the DBQ faithful...they're the only ones who really get up in arms when you disagree with their opinions. Makes for an entertaining off season.

Sigh,  I remember the days when a poster could actually list reasons why they thought a team would be good/bad the next season, then we might get a whole page worth of replies from others that would come on and state why they thought that poster was full of it or expand on that thought with more reasons why they thought the original poster was correct in their analysis. 

Now, we just get a bland 'you lose too much to win next year' comment.  When other posters give reasons why they think you're wrong, and hope to get back a reply that better states the origional posters opinion, all we get is basically a 'ha ha, you're upset' type of reply.  Oh well, I guess.
Not really referring to you...one of your other faithful, who instead of admitting a loss, constantly chalks it up to a "fluke" is who I was referring to. He is easy to rile up in the down time on the board. You posts are well thought out, articulate, and void of too much bias.

5 Words or Less

Quote from: doolittledog on December 13, 2012, 11:54:12 AM
... Every now and then a Cornell/Dubuque/Luther fan would post something about their team only to get shot down ... I kind of miss those days.

Cheer up ... Something about Luther  ;D


5 Words or Less

#38225

    TEAM   
    2007 FB EXPENSES   
    2010 FB EXPENSES   
    2011 FB EXPENSES   
Buena Vista
$325,455
$383,398
$390,175
Central
$297,548
$383,067
$403,948
Coe
$271,565
$264,648
$331,762
Dubuque
$448,102
$400,627
$519,289
Loras
$275,945
$362,374
$358,134
Luther
$228,915
$285,325
$270,222
Simpson
$323,084
$465,665
$461,071
Wartburg
$246,228
$336,628
$378,856
1. Mt. Union
not available
$448,555
$445,245
2. UMHB
not available
$1,172,204
$1,044,520
3. St. Thomas
not available
$493,100
$608,257
4. Linfield
not available
$404,550
$419,168
5. UW-Whitewater
not available
$279,543
$380,952
Upper Iowa (D2)
not available
$1,125,039
$1,261,056
William Penn (NAIA)
not available
$1,427,398
$1,478,863

Source: http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/Index.aspx

QUESTIONS:

  • Is there a correlation between spending money and winning a conference title?  A national title?

  • What spending levels pop out the most?  Why?

  • There are very different spending levels among the top 5 ranked teams in the country.  What makes these schools more successful in football than their IIAC counterparts?

doolittledog

#38226
Well, a major reason for the higher numbers you see for Upper Iowa and William Penn is football scholarships get counted as a football expense.  25 football scholarships at $30k each would add $750k to your budget that doesn't show up as a 'football expense' at a D3 school.  All those $10k 'Presidential' scholarships D3 kids get, suddendly get called a 'football' scholarship once you are a D2 or NAIA school.  Knock $750k off of the 2011 Upper Iowa football expenses and their budget looks like $511,056 which is right in line with a D3 institution.

Next, I would like to see how each school calculated their football expenses.  Is a football expense at school A, considered a football expense at school B?

Luther, with expenses consistently below 300k might explain something.

Does UD use different accounting methods than others?  448k in '07, goes down to 400k in '10, and then up to 519k in '11...why the big swings up and down from year to year???

Do new uniforms count as a football expense?  New football offices get counted as a football expense?  Sending a player and coaches to Salem, VA for Gagliardi Trophy ceremonies count as a football expense?     

notlongago

#38227
Quote from: doolittledog on December 14, 2012, 07:48:31 AM
Well, a major reason for the higher numbers you see for Upper Iowa and William Penn is football scholarships get counted as a football expense.  25 football scholarships at $30k each would add $750k to your budget that doesn't show up as a 'football expense' at a D3 school.  All those $10k 'Presidential' scholarships D3 kids get, suddendly get called a 'football' scholarship once you are a D2 or NAIA school.  Knock $750k off of the 2011 Upper Iowa football expenses and their budget looks like $511,056 which is right in line with a D3 institution.

Next, I would like to see how each school calculated their football expenses.  Is a football expense at school A, considered a football expense at school B?

Luther, with expenses consistently below 300k might explain something.

Does UD use different accounting methods than others?  448k in '07, goes down to 400k in '10, and then up to 519k in '11...why the big swings up and down from year to year???

Do new uniforms count as a football expense?  New football offices get counted as a football expense?  Sending a player and coaches to Salem, VA for Gagliardi Trophy ceremonies count as a football expense?   

I would say yes these would fall under football expenses. 


and totally off topic, but need to give another shout out to Coach Van Kley and the Central College Wrestling team. Currently ranked #15 in the nation, 3-1 dual record, some tourney wins. One of the most impressive turnarounds I have seen in such a short period of time. Although Wartburg will most likely run through the conference again, its good to be competitive again. Hopefully they can take it one match at a time in conference because it is going to be grind with all the great wrestling teams.

D3Dutchman

Dvr'd the NC game from last night, and spending a bit of time watching it on a gloomy Saturday morning.  A few thoughts...

-While I get tired of seeing MUC in there, they really represent D3 well, as does STU.  Really a great brand of football. 

-Admittedly a D3 homer, but after watching this game compared to the Morningside game on Thursday night, I think MUC would roll either of those NAIA squads.  I know this is an age-old futile argument given that D3 and NAIA are apples and oranges for a lot of different reasons.  That said, I like to talk about it.  Some goofball was on the radio the other morning bashing D3 athletics and lauding his "scholarship" NAIA playing days after that Grinnell B-baller scored all of those points, and it really kind of ticked me off.  From a football perspective at least (because that is all I'm familiar with), I think top D3 programs are greater than top NAIA programs, but overall they are very similar.  Anyone have any perspective on that?

-Lastly, what is it going to take for a IIAC sqad to get to get over the hump?  We've had some teams that were close...00 Dutch, 07 Dutch, 03 Knights, some talented Kohawk teams.  Is there too much parody, are we spread too thin with so many small college programs in the state...both D3, NAIA, UIU, and Drake? 

DutchFan2004

Quote from: doolittledog on December 13, 2012, 11:54:12 AM
Quote from: NewKnightDad on December 13, 2012, 08:16:27 AM
Unless Wartburg improves a bunch on the o-line they are going to be in for another 6-4 type of year.

Not the insightful prognostication you were looking for, it is the best I can do at this time.  ;)

Back in '06 - '07 you could make that post you just made and then the rest of the day would be filled with posts like...

Central fan - "O-line?  You need to find a QB or you'll be lucky to win 3 games"

Wartburg fan - "The Knights O-line will be fine, player X was injured last year and will be healthy next fall and I hear we have a D2 transfer that is supposed to be a beast."

Every now and then a Cornell/Dubuque/Luther fan would post something about their team only to get shot down with...

Central/Wartburg fan - "Your team is irrelevant.  Why are you even posting on here?  You're taking away from the rightful conversation about how Central/Wartburg rock."

I kind of miss those days.  Though I do like that any team can get talked about now...not just Central/Wartburg. 

I just wish there were more spies out there to tell my who Dubuque and other schools were able to recruit.


The trouble with D3 is that you never know where a kid will wind up.  With no commitment letters the best thing you have is a dorm deposit and for what a $100 (a dorm deposit) a kid can change his mind pretty easy.  That and how many freshman wind up playing?  I'd say if more than 1 or 2 per team per year is not a good thing for that team.  IMHO look at the roster and see the freshman they have there now is more meaningful than who they are recruiting now.
Play with Passion  Coach Ron Schipper

DutchFan2004

As far as costs go I think the football costs are about equal except for UMHB.  They have 2-3 times the expenses that other teams have.  I would say they are accounting for things differently.  I could be wrong but I don't think they can spend money at that amount and keep faculty and boosters happy but they aren't St Olaf.   :) :) :) :)  As far as NAIA goes Doolittle is probably correct about accounting for the scholarships being in the expenses.  I think his numbers are skewed though.  If I remember correctly when my son was recruited the NAIA schools were offering about the same scholarship money as the D3 schools offered in financial aid.  If you take DD's 30K and divided by 4 for over 4 years he is pretty close.  If you take 25 x 30k the x 4, 1 for each class the football expense would be more like $3,000,000 for scholarships alone per year.  So I'd say the D3 and NAIA schools are spending about the same money.
Play with Passion  Coach Ron Schipper

DutchFan2004

Quote from: warthog on December 12, 2012, 02:52:30 PM
Are other recruiters out in force this week?

We have UD Spartan coaches sniffing around our neck of the woods this week.    ???  :-\

I wish they would head back up to Dubuque County and leave Scott, Clinton, Muscatine, Cedar, and Des Moines Counties to their old teammates from Wartburg.  ;)

Warthog,

I know the Millikin coaches were close to your neck of the woods.  I don't know if the crossed the river or not but they were out on the road all last week.
Play with Passion  Coach Ron Schipper

D3Dutchman

Quote from: DutchFan2004 on December 15, 2012, 04:05:43 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on December 13, 2012, 11:54:12 AM
Quote from: NewKnightDad on December 13, 2012, 08:16:27 AM
Unless Wartburg improves a bunch on the o-line they are going to be in for another 6-4 type of year.

Not the insightful prognostication you were looking for, it is the best I can do at this time.  ;)

Back in '06 - '07 you could make that post you just made and then the rest of the day would be filled with posts like...

Central fan - "O-line?  You need to find a QB or you'll be lucky to win 3 games"

Wartburg fan - "The Knights O-line will be fine, player X was injured last year and will be healthy next fall and I hear we have a D2 transfer that is supposed to be a beast."

Every now and then a Cornell/Dubuque/Luther fan would post something about their team only to get shot down with...

Central/Wartburg fan - "Your team is irrelevant.  Why are you even posting on here?  You're taking away from the rightful conversation about how Central/Wartburg rock."

I kind of miss those days.  Though I do like that any team can get talked about now...not just Central/Wartburg. 

I just wish there were more spies out there to tell my who Dubuque and other schools were able to recruit.


The trouble with D3 is that you never know where a kid will wind up.  With no commitment letters the best thing you have is a dorm deposit and for what a $100 (a dorm deposit) a kid can change his mind pretty easy.  That and how many freshman wind up playing?  I'd say if more than 1 or 2 per team per year is not a good thing for that team.  IMHO look at the roster and see the freshman they have there now is more meaningful than who they are recruiting now.

Yeah, kids will back out the day they are supposed to start camp...it happens at every level in one way or another...look at Iowa.  Starting freshman is generally a double edged sword, in that it should pay off in the future if they stick around (hoping this is the case for the Dutch).  That said, look at STU...they started Freshman, and obviously had some success.

doolittledog

Quote from: DutchFan2004 on December 15, 2012, 04:05:43 PM


The trouble with D3 is that you never know where a kid will wind up.  With no commitment letters the best thing you have is a dorm deposit and for what a $100 (a dorm deposit) a kid can change his mind pretty easy.  That and how many freshman wind up playing?  I'd say if more than 1 or 2 per team per year is not a good thing for that team.  IMHO look at the roster and see the freshman they have there now is more meaningful than who they are recruiting now.

Yeah, I know that.  It's just fun to get "My father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate overheard at 31 flavors last night that all-state kid from Waukon is going to Dubuque...I know, I know, both his parents went to Wartburg...but I heard its Dubuque."

doolittledog

Quote from: DutchFan2004 on December 15, 2012, 04:21:06 PM
As far as costs go I think the football costs are about equal except for UMHB.  They have 2-3 times the expenses that other teams have.  I would say they are accounting for things differently.  I could be wrong but I don't think they can spend money at that amount and keep faculty and boosters happy but they aren't St Olaf.   :) :) :) :)  As far as NAIA goes Doolittle is probably correct about accounting for the scholarships being in the expenses.  I think his numbers are skewed though.  If I remember correctly when my son was recruited the NAIA schools were offering about the same scholarship money as the D3 schools offered in financial aid.  If you take DD's 30K and divided by 4 for over 4 years he is pretty close.  If you take 25 x 30k the x 4, 1 for each class the football expense would be more like $3,000,000 for scholarships alone per year.  So I'd say the D3 and NAIA schools are spending about the same money.

I think NAIA schools can offer 24 football scholarships and the NSIC is raising their limit from 24 to 28 scholarships. In D2 they can divide those up over 85 players.  So while a D2 and an NAIA school will offer your son an overall finantial package that is fairly similar to the overall finantial package a D3 school offers, say D3 is 30k and you pay 15k out of pocket, D2 could give you a package that is 30k and you pay 15k out of pocket.  The difference is that 5k presidential scholarship you get from the D3 school becomes a 5k football scholarship at the D2 school.

While kids at NAIA, D2, and D3 all end up with a similar overall finantial package, those NAIA and D2 schools will count their 24-28 football scholarships as a football expense. An expense that won't show as a football expense at a D3 school, though they are spending it to get kids on campus...just doesn't count as a football expense.