MIAC to vote to oust St. Thomas

Started by D3Grad, April 08, 2019, 04:50:47 PM

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GK79

Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 12, 2019, 10:56:38 AM
The problem isn't football. The problem is academics, mission, and institutional reach. UST is a Catholic regional classroom-based university of modest academic status. The UAA schools are high-powered national research universities of secular orientation, massive financial resources -- most of them have endowments that range into the billions -- and an elite academic status that is up there with the Ivies and the NESCAC. Each of the UAA schools is a member of the American Association of Universities, the exclusive club that contains the sixty or so top research universities in the nation. UST isn't anywhere near being a university of AAU status, in large part because it isn't even a research university to begin with.

Realistically, the only other D3 schools that would be a fit for the UAA are Johns Hopkins, which used to be a UAA member before opting out, and perhaps MIT. (Caltech has the academic, research, and financial bona-fides, but Caltech wants no part of making its intercollegiate sports be as comprehensive and as competitive as those of the UAA schools.)

If UST really wants to stay D3, its best bet might be to apply for membership in the WIAC. Believe it or not, there's no rule in the WIAC constitution that says that full members have to be branch campuses of the University of Wisconsin system -- or so I've been told by a Wisconsin-based D3 athletics insider. It would mean that men's soccer would have to play as an independent, but UWW and UWP have shown that that's a viable option.

I thought about the WIAC for STU, but I think it would be a stretch for both parties in that the WIAC likely wouldn't want to have a medium sized Catholic school in general, much less one that could keep a school like UW Whitewater from qualifying for the football playoffs.  The WIAC schools left the NCHA in hockey a few years back so that they could just play conference hockey among themselves under the WIAC only umbrella.   I think it might be a stretch for STU to be in a conference with all state schools, which is why I was thinking about the UAA as an option...but I understand that it probably isn't likely going to happen for the reasons you stated.

Quote from: GK79 on April 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AMThe D2 possibility for UST that's being floated right now on the MIAC football board is the Northern Sun Intercollegiate Conference. The NSIC already contains several Minnesota-based members, and it's a 14-school league that is about to lose a member (Augustana SD) to D1.

Interesting, but it's almost like the WIAC in terms of the preponderance of state schools in its membership.  With Augustana leaving, there are only two other private schools in that soon-to-be 13 school conference.  At least in the GLVC you've got similarly sized private schools like Lewis and Maryville and, to a lesser extent, Rockhurst and Bellarmine.

Buck O.

#16
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 12, 2019, 10:56:38 AM
Quote from: GK79 on April 12, 2019, 10:33:38 AM
If St. Thomas is that large and looking to expand its national reach, and if the MIAC is successful in ousting STU, and if STU wants to continue to be a D3 school, perhaps the Tommies should consider petitioning to join the UAA.  There are a couple of schools in that conference that are relatively close to STU (Chicago and Wash U), so it might be a reasonable fit. 

The problem is football.  The UAA doesn't offer much in that regard. Many of the football playing UAA schools are affiliated with other conferences (for example, Chicago in the MWC and Wash U in the CCIW, etc.).  Perhaps they could join the UAA for other sports and play football as an independent or look to another more regional conference for affiliate membership in football.  Or perhaps they could join the UAA and persuade the other schools that play football as an affiliate member of a different conference to play within the UAA.

Realistically, the only other D3 schools that would be a fit for the UAA are Johns Hopkins, which used to be a UAA member before opting out, and perhaps MIT. (Caltech has the academic, research, and financial bona-fides, but Caltech wants no part of making its intercollegiate sports be as comprehensive and as competitive as those of the UAA schools.)


There's one more D3 school that would be a potential fit for the UAA:  Tufts, which as a relatively big school (by D3 standards) in an urban area has much more in common with the UAA schools than with the other NESCAC schools.  Not that I actually see Tufts going anywhere.

Gregory Sager

Yep, you're right. In fact, as a highly-respected urban research university of about 6,000 undergrads and 6,000 grad students, Tufts is actually a better fit for the UAA than it is for the NESCAC, which is otherwise strictly a circuit of small liberal-arts colleges. But, yeah, I'd be surprised if Tufts ever abandoned the NESCAC for the UAA.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

UAA schools are Tier 1 research institutions. The limitation is even more than people realize. Tufts and MIT are certainly listed as being in that genre, I believe. JHU is certainly there as well (and I've been told the UAA would love to have Hopkins back in to be back in the DC/Baltimore market). I have been told there is another school who is making significant moves to become a Tier 1 institution (and they are located in a major metropolitan area), but realistically (IMO) there needs to be two institutions available before the UAA would think about expanding.

I also don't think the UAA would want to have multiple members in the same city (i.e. Tufts, MIT, and Brandeis). Maybe two? Maybe?

The other hook, which after far too long looking into, is they have to me a member of a certain academic group of colleges. I can't find it - even though I should know it.

So yes, there are some options out there ... but that doesn't mean they are the right fit for the conference or for those individual institutions. I think the UAA is on the border of expanding and folding depending on what prism you look through. One school leaves (for whatever reasons) and this grand experiment may end. That said, I think the chances of finding other members is just as likely. (No, I am NOT saying either will happen; simply saying I could see either play out especially in this age of shrinking budgets and smarter thinking.)
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Ejay

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 17, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
I have been told there is another school who is making significant moves to become a Tier 1 institution (and they are located in a major metropolitan area), but realistically (IMO) there needs to be two institutions available before the UAA would think about expanding.

UT-Dallas?

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 17, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
The other hook, which after far too long looking into, is they have to me a member of a certain academic group of colleges. I can't find it - even though I should know it.

You're thinking of the AAU -- the Association of American Universities -- which includes the sixty most prestigious research universities in the United States (plus two Canadian universities). All of the members of the UAA are in the AAU (as is Johns Hopkins); the last UAA school to be voted into this elite club, Brandeis, was voted in in 1985, the year before the UAA was founded. Chicago and Johns Hopkins are among the fourteen institutions that founded the AAU back in 1900.

Surprisingly, Tufts is not an AAU member, as I had thought it was. I would imagine, though, that Tufts would be among the likeliest of candidates out there as long as it's reaching the federal-research-grants criterion. The three non-UAA D3 institutions that are AAU members are Johns Hopkins, MIT, and Caltech. I'm fairly certain that the pool of potential UAA members begins and ends with those three schools, as I can't imagine the UAA accepting a non-AAU member -- not even Tufts at this point. (There are two former AAU members within the D3 ranks, Clark and Catholic. Clark walked away voluntarily from AAU membership in 1999 rather than waiting around to be kicked out, because it didn't have the mammoth resources necessary to maintain AAU status, and I suspect that Catholic left for similar reasons in 2002.)

https://www.aau.edu/
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 17, 2019, 01:02:51 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 17, 2019, 12:21:24 PM
The other hook, which after far too long looking into, is they have to me a member of a certain academic group of colleges. I can't find it - even though I should know it.

You're thinking of the AAU -- the Association of American Universities -- which includes the sixty most prestigious research universities in the United States (plus two Canadian universities). All of the members of the UAA are in the AAU (as is Johns Hopkins); the last UAA school to be voted into this elite club, Brandeis, was voted in in 1985, the year before the UAA was founded. Chicago and Johns Hopkins are among the fourteen institutions that founded the AAU back in 1900.

Surprisingly, Tufts is not an AAU member, as I had thought it was. I would imagine, though, that Tufts would be among the likeliest of candidates out there as long as it's reaching the federal-research-grants criterion. The three non-UAA D3 institutions that are AAU members are Johns Hopkins, MIT, and Caltech. I'm fairly certain that the pool of potential UAA members begins and ends with those three schools, as I can't imagine the UAA accepting a non-AAU member -- not even Tufts at this point. (There are two former AAU members within the D3 ranks, Clark and Catholic. Clark walked away voluntarily from AAU membership in 1999 rather than waiting around to be kicked out, because it didn't have the mammoth resources necessary to maintain AAU status, and I suspect that Catholic left for similar reasons in 2002.)

https://www.aau.edu/

That's it! Thank you. And that is the reason I knew Tufts wasn't a candidate.

Again, they would love to have Hopkins back in - but that isn't happening. MIT i think is a challenge with Brandeis already "repping" Boston. Caltech is certainly an interesting idea, but I don't think Caltech has any interest considering their athletics scenario (though, improving) and other factors.

Per the guess on who the other institution is ... I am not going to say right now as I don't think it is my information to share. I also don't think it would happen unless there was a second one to join them for it to make any sense especially when it comes to how schedules are done (odd number really doesn't work in the UAA for scheduling).
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

gbpuckfan

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jknezek

Quote from: gbpuckfan on April 18, 2019, 02:16:39 PM
Any word on the meeting today?

The MIAC football board has the best info so far via a twitter feed. Keep an eye there.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

The conference presidents agreed to move the discussion to their May meetings and put it on the agenda.

IMO - they didn't have the votes this time around, but maybe have some who indicated they are still on the fence.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

D3Grad

St. Thomas is "involuntarily removed" from the MIAC.  The oust is official. 

Flying Weasel

According to the release, St. Thomas will continue to compete as full members of the MIAC for the 2019/20 and 2020/21 academic years.

https://www.miacathletics.com/general/2018-19/releases/20190510vxuc8l

QuoteBLOOMINGTON, Minn. -- After extensive membership discussions, the University of St. Thomas will be involuntarily removed from membership in the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (MIAC). The MIAC Presidents' Council cites athletic competitive parity in the conference as a primary concern. St. Thomas will begin a multi-year transition immediately and meanwhile is eligible to compete as a full member of the MIAC through the end of spring 2021.

St. Thomas is one of seven founding members of the MIAC and will leave the conference in good standing with a long and appreciated history of academic and athletic success.

Falconer

In other words, they kicked our butts and we won't play 'em anymore.

That's the bottom line. Admittedly, they have more than dominated across the board. I wonder how many (if any) other D3 schools could show a comparable dominance across so many sports. I don't have the numbers handy, but I wouldn't be surprised if Messiah turned out to be dominant in several sports in their conference(s), which I type that way since the MAC includes two divisions (not sure of that term) that sometimes combine in certain sports. They don't combine in soccer. Nor does Messiah have a football team. However, again without numbers in front of me, I would be shocked if they were anywhere nearly as dominant as STU has been in their conference for a long time.

Gregory Sager

There are some leagues in which a single member comes close to the all-sports dominance that UST has had in the MIAC over the past 10-15 years in terms of men's side, women's side, and combined -- Wartburg in the ARC, Washington & Lee in the ODAC, and Johns Hopkins in the Centennial have all been mentioned on d3boards.com during this past week, as those schools win (real or imagined) all-sports trophies in their respective leagues on a regular basis. But UST beats them all for the sheer volume of conference titles won over that period.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Buck O.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 23, 2019, 09:13:49 PM
There are some leagues in which a single member comes close to the all-sports dominance that UST has had in the MIAC over the past 10-15 years in terms of men's side, women's side, and combined -- Wartburg in the ARC, Washington & Lee in the ODAC, and Johns Hopkins in the Centennial have all been mentioned on d3boards.com during this past week, as those schools win (real or imagined) all-sports trophies in their respective leagues on a regular basis. But UST beats them all for the sheer volume of conference titles won over that period.

While conference titles are one way of looking at this, another way is to look at points in the Learfield Directors' Cup standings.

Here are the top two schools in the Centennial, MIAC and NEWMAC over each of the last five years.

Centennial

2014-15: Hopkins 1016.75, Haverford 322.5
2015-16: Hopkins 703, Haverford 400.5
2016-17: Hopkins 864.5, F&M 350
2017-18: Hopkins 883.25, F&M 306.5
2018-19 (to date): Hopkins 804.25, Haverford 238

MIAC

2014-15: UST 628.5, St. Olaf 427.5
2015-16: UST 780, St. Olaf 447
2016-17: UST 588.5, GAC 339
2017-18: UST 650.25, GAC 384.5
2018-19 (to date): UST 596, Carleton 281

NEWMAC

2014-15: MIT 961, Springfield 420
2015-16: MIT 843, Springfield 383
2016-17: MIT 667.25, Babson 519.5
2017-18: MIT 1001.5, Springfield 525
2018-19 (to date): MIT 573.25, Springfield 282.5

In four of the five years, Hopkins's margin over the second-place Centennial team was larger than UST's margin over the second-place MIAC team, and in three of the five years, MIT's margin over the second-place NEWMAC team was larger than UST's margin.  Yet I hear nothing about throwing Hopkins out of the Centennial or MIT out of the NEWMAC.