2019 D3 Men's Soccer National Perspective

Started by PaulNewman, August 26, 2019, 08:24:35 PM

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Gregory Sager

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
Yeah, going to side with Paul on this one. Some points:

1) Did he bring any of these concerns to the AD? If he feels so strongly that he is going to transfer (no small amount of work goes into that effort), and he felt compelled to publicly go after the coach and the program, surely he felt obligated to talk to school officials about the issues with the program, no? 

That's just it -- we don't know that. This was raised at the very beginning of this discussion by jknezek. We're debating in a vacuum in terms of whether or not Lai raised these concerns privately.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
2) He states that he waited for quite a spell and wasn't seen, on one occasion. That's his example of negligence? Like many here, I played 4 years at a D3 school, serving as captain for 2 of those years. Not once did I request a one on one meeting, and neither of the coaches I played for did 1 on1 pre or post season briefings. It did not strike me as odd or insulting or negligent in any way. (Now, I did use this as a learning experience and when I began coaching many years later, I held these meetings with the club players I coached, but that's a different story.)

That's just anecdotal to your experience at Johns Hopkins two decades ago, though. It doesn't address the situation at Trinity (TX) in 2019. We don't know: a) what sort of expectations Lai was led to believe Coach McGinlay gave in terms of an open-door policy; b) if his expectations were accurate in that regard, i.e., if what he believed was or wasn't an accurate depiction of what he had been told; and c) if his expectations were different from reality; i.e., whether or not he had been told something that wasn't true.

Some coaches do one-on-ones. Some don't. I don't think that we can generalize in this regard.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PMNow, if he'd emailed and received no response; or if he'd tried to set up multiple meetings to no avail... I'm listening. But he either did a poor job of fleshing this out, or he's being extremely sensitive on this point. Especially with a coach with such a long tenure, who is fairly set in his ways (assumption on my part), it's really not a red flag that he's not having 1 on 1

I certainly agree that there is an obvious gap in his tale here. Modern college students practically live on their phones. It strikes me as obvious that he would've texted or e-mailed the coach ... and it's puzzling why he doesn't mention any attempt to communicate with the coach other than waiting for an hour outside of the coach's office. (Did he even make an appointment to meet with the coach? That's one of the first thoughts I had when I read his piece.)

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PM3) The most glaring thing to me is a complete lack of FACTS in this opinion piece. And before anyone starts, I have a background in communications and journalism. Opeds that lack anything other than opinions are pretty useless, quite frankly. The most obvious area he could've honed in on was the issue of over-recruitment. That's EASY to present... In fact, I'm sure any number of you all could go out and look at the size of the freshman class over the last 3-4 years to check on this. But as a casual reader, I'm looking at that accusation and saying "put that in context, give me some numbers, what are you SAYING?"

I totally agree with you here.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:27:45 PMLastly, throwing out the sexual misconduct issue is like rolling a grenade into the room and strolling away. I sure hope he didn't have any good friends on that team, because that insinuation and accusation is enough to ruin the reputation of a couple dozen people, not to mention the coaching staff. And, again, we are left with nothing more than innuendo on that front, as opposed to examples of the culture that he hints around.

That's irresponsible, plain and simple.

Well, there's more going on in his reference to sexual misconduct than a simple grenade lob on his part. The "insinuation and accusation" didn't start with Lai; it started with the Clothesline Project that he mentioned. The specifics are in this Trintonian article, which predates Lai's piece and which includes a mention that the men's soccer team had been called out on one of the t-shirts in the Clothesline Project.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
And let me add this, as folks are seemingly hung up on his motivations... whether this was a "hit piece" or not.

I'll take a different angle: What was his point? Was he trying to affect change? So that no other player has to experience what he experienced. If that was his goal, the lack of tangible facts and a coherent through-line make it extremely difficult for the AD or the school administration to actually do anything.

Well, if we take his post at face value, he spells out in his final paragraph that he was trying to affect change:

QuoteI do believe that Trinity men's soccer team has substantial issues that need to be addressed. That being said, this program has offered me the opportunity of a lifetime, and I will always be thankful to the coaching staff and my teammates for allowing be to be part of such an experience. In terms of next steps, I am hopeful that Trinity Men's Soccer will do a better job of establishing a better on-campus reputation. I also acknowledge the substantial time and effort it takes for a coaching staff to manage a men's varsity athletic team. It is no easy task and at no given moment will every team member be happy. However, in the case of Trinity Men's Soccer, more can be done.

You're right that it is too vague and non-specific to be actionable by the AD or anybody else.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:14 PMAnd if that wasn't his motivation... Bringing issues outside of the locker room goes against the unwritten code of every sport, regardless of the level. You may disagree with that code, but what this kid did was off the charts in terms of the norms of athletics.

I suspect that we're all aware of the code. But, since Lai said that he that he has taken steps towards transferring, whether he does transfer or not my guess is that he's just burning a bridge behind him that he's already crossed. I doubt that, after having read the piece, any of us expects to see Josh Lai's name on the 2020 Trinity (TX) roster.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on January 09, 2020, 01:35:14 PMSo, again, you guys look at it rather benignly. I'm not going to characterize it as a hit piece, but I sure do question his motivation. The coach helped you transfer. On your way out the door you talk about over recruitment and favoritism, which are EXTREMELY strong accusations against ANY coach or program. Throw in a nice sprinkling of sexual misconduct by the players and I really wonder what some of you think this guy was up to.

I can't speak for anybody else, but my read is that this is an intelligent young man who has an assortment of complaints about the soccer program of which he was a part, some personal and some general. And he felt strongly enough about those complaints to publicly vent them upon his departure from the program -- and that, as people his age tend to do, he didn't fully think through what he was doing, or how he was doing it, or all of the possible ramifications of it when he submitted the piece to the Trintonian. But that doesn't mean that, therefore, there isn't any truth at all in what he was saying, or that we have some sort of clear window into his motivation. At best we can only examine it in the context of how other student-athletes have expressed similar complaints.

(I speak from experience when I say that 20-year-olds don't always exhibit clarity and/or sound judgment with regard to publicly expressing their opinion for the record. As the former editor of my college newspaper, I was overcome with dread the day that NPU put all of its back issues of the newspaper in an online archive. ;))
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

PaulNewman

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 09, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Maybe those of you assuming his motivations (Mr. Right and PaulNewman) should contact the student and ask him his motivations ... instead of just assuming he was being a jerk on his way out the door. I find that most students are far more nuanced than you seem to give them credit for ... ever.

'd-mac,' maybe we can do a nuance challenge over the off-season.  And I'm not sure what your 'ever' means at the end there?  That I personally haven't appreciated nuance in student-athletes...like 'ever'?  Do you have more evidence for that? 

I wasn't trying to write a nuanced account of what he did, but I certainly could do so.  Was he naive?  Courageous?  Courageously naive?  Did he see a sexual harassment problem that he sat on for a year and half and then just added that on since he was writing something anyway?  Can we agree that he didn't describe anything that doesn't happen to kids on rosters of most competitive programs?  The piece actually was a little hard to follow....thanking everyone, including the soccer program, for a wonderful couple of years that were among the best in his life...and then very personally calling out the coach and the program on multiple levels.  BTW, it looks like he got plenty of chances to play and prove himself. Maybe he was on his way to having a break-out junior campaign.

I don't need to contact the student.  We have what he wrote, and based on that, it is clear that he was dissatisfied with his role on the soccer team, that he believes he deserved a larger role, that some of his teammates received unearned favoritism....and now, in hindsight, he has determined that the program is overly focused on winning, over-recruits, and contributes to a sexual harassment problem on campus.  Again, nothing really new or germane to Trinity alone.  And I'm not disputing what he presented in terms of accuracy, except to say his experiences and observations obviously are from his slant.  I know kids from my son's team from several years ago and kids from other teams who could have written something very, very similar.  How many kids and parents in high school allege the exact same sort of things in terms of why a kid isn't playing enough, or starting, or getting the All Conference awards driven by coach nominations?

I know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion, but all of us are free to express our thoughts without reflexively deferring to those who present as having the right, definitive and corrective answer every time.

BTW, I feel fairly safe in saying he didn't discuss his concerns with the coach other than whatever he said when they met about his request for transfer assistane.  He told us about waiting and leaving one time, and then the transfer meeting.  One would think he would have mentioned any other significant encounters in between, especially since he did basically say "well, when said I was transferring then he did [finally] help me."

And finally, did any of what was written jive with anything anybody else knows about McGinlay?  My impression from a great distance is that he is a highly respected guy who is viewed as having a great deal of class.  There certainly have been no threads here talking negatively about him the way some coaches have been discussed on the site.

PaulNewman

A couple of more thoughts and I will have more than said my piece.

Mr.Right originally posted what he did with a link to a clip and interview with Coach McGinlay that highlighted him having and recovering from open heart surgery in the months leading up to the 2019 season and the celebration of his 500th win.  As I believe Mr. Sager said, we don't appear to have a slew of Trinity posters on the site (although there is one).  I wonder what the response would be here if the same article had been written by an OWU player (regarding Coach Martin), or Tufts, or Rochester, or W&L, or....North Park. 

I am totally aware of the power deferential between players, especially frosh and sophs, and coaches, and maybe especially legendary coaches.  I would guess Coach Martin has had players cut and players who quit because they were unhappy.  I bet there are even a couple of ex-Tufts players who don't think Shapiro walks on water.  The commitment to being on a D3 team is large and staying on a team for four years when you aren't playing for many won't make much sense.  And of course we have the schools which not only "over-recruit" but way, way over-roster.  College sports even at the D3 level may turn out to be different than what a lot of kids imagined.  I am not unsympathetic to players becoming disillusioned, having legit gripes, and/or transferring. 

That said, if you can write an article for your school newspaper, and naive or not, he knew it was a big deal, then one presumably can find a way to speak with his or her coach.  Any coach should be willing to meet with a player one to one to hear concerns, to review what the player can do to be more competitive on the team, etc.  Was McGinlay even in his office when the player waited outside?  Did McGinlay peer out and see the kid and just ignore him?  Any other attempts to make an actual appointment?  Or how about when leaving the practice pitch after a practice approaching the coach and asking if you can have 15 minutes with the coach at some point over the next week or two?  A player sees his coach every single day....not that hard to ask to have a meeting.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That is extremely unfair. I've never insinuated any such thing. I don't understand why you had to make this personal.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 08:24:01 PMAs I believe Mr. Sager said, we don't appear to have a slew of Trinity posters on the site (although there is one).  I wonder what the response would be here if the same article had been written by an OWU player (regarding Coach Martin), or Tufts, or Rochester, or W&L, or....North Park.

I've already given my response to that:

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 08, 2020, 03:07:09 PMI'd be pretty ticked off if this came from an NPU player. But I'd start asking a lot of questions of people in or close to the soccer program to see how much credence the complainant had, rather than defensively dismiss it out of hand.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Ron Boerger

Having gotten a quick sort-of mention as the Trinity(TX) supporter that occasionally chimes in here - have no insight into the situation, the young man making the accusations, or Coach McGinlay himself, just follow the program as a non-sports playing alumnus and send the athletic department a couple of bucks every now and then.  I did see the article when published last month.  It's obviously unfortunate all-around, and many of you have made the points - from multiple perspectives - better and more objectively than can I.

PaulNewman

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 10, 2020, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That is extremely unfair. I've never insinuated any such thing. I don't understand why you had to make this personal.

[/quote]

I was just gonna let this go, mainly because I'd rather not trigger yet another multi-quote, multi-counter (including allusions to what you feel you've already countered [and settled]....e.g. "....for the third time..."  And btw, just because you've said something for the third time that doesn't make you right or mean that another poster can't continue to challenge a point (and certainly you are no stranger to challenging points or presuming that the only reason someone could still disagree is because he hasn't understood you properly from the jump.

Fair?  Did you by chance apply fairness rather selectively?  Did you happen to read what I was responding to?  I wrote nothing to trigger that very personalized  (and grossly unfair) response. 

You also conveniently did not quote the rest of that sentence which read "...all of us are free to express our thoughts without reflexively deferring to those who present as having the right, definitive and corrective answer every time."

Forgive me if I have interpreted some of the posts of the self-anointed "experts" as intended to provide the definitive word on a topic such that opposing views should cease and desist, and that failing to do so will earn a certain ire and irritation with eventual suggestions of being a bad apple on the site.  You get irritated but then are never short of words in your repeatedly corrective replies.  Perhaps tedious for you, but no less tedious on the other side.

All that said, if I was unfair, I apologize.  Given a couple of similar scrapes with you in the past (last year), I have been very intent on being very fair to NPU and complimenting your work (and the other fellow's as well).

Gregory Sager

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 10, 2020, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That is extremely unfair. I've never insinuated any such thing. I don't understand why you had to make this personal.



I was just gonna let this go,

... but of course you didn't. ::) :D

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMmainly because I'd rather not trigger yet another multi-quote, multi-counter (including allusions to what you feel you've already countered [and settled]....e.g. "....for the third time..."  And btw, just because you've said something for the third time that doesn't make you right or mean that another poster can't continue to challenge a point (and certainly you are no stranger to challenging points or presuming that the only reason someone could still disagree is because he hasn't understood you properly from the jump.

I didn't presume that you hadn't understood it properly. I figured that it was a matter of your simply missing it -- as you had missed my earlier bit about how I would've reacted if an NPU student-athlete had written that opinion piece.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMFair?  Did you by chance apply fairness rather selectively?

No, I didn't. I have posted on this site for over 20 years, and in all that time I have never presumed that anything that I have posted was supposed to settle a debate over a matter of opinion -- which is what this is. Never. There is no way that I can take your insinuation that I have a my-word-settles-it attitude about opinions as anything other than either an ad hominem retort dropped into the middle of a speculative debate over some kid's motives for writing a negative piece about his former team, or as a straight-out insult.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMDid you happen to read what I was responding to?  I wrote nothing to trigger that very personalized  (and grossly unfair) response.

Uh-uh. You don't get to take the high road here. You called me out, right out of the blue two days ago, not the other way around. This was a back-and-forth about various posters' respective interpretations of Josh Lai's letter to the Trinitonian. You crossed the line and made it personal with your remark about how once Dave McHugh and/or yours truly "chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion" -- as though he or I could (and do) bully people into submission on a chat board.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMYou also conveniently did not quote the rest of that sentence which read "...all of us are free to express our thoughts without reflexively deferring to those who present as having the right, definitive and corrective answer every time."

"Conveniently"? No. I didn't quote the rest of your sentence because: a) I agree with the substance of it in the abstract; b) I don't agree that I "present as having the right, definitive, and correct answer every time" in a matter that's open to interpretation and opinion; and c) it doesn't advance any sort of argument that needs to be refuted. It seemed to me to simply be you piling on to your accusation in the first part of the sentence.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMForgive me if I have interpreted some of the posts of the self-anointed "experts"

See? You're doing it again! I don't know why you keep doing it. I have to suspect that either you're so defensive that you feel the need to lash out at me like this whenever I disagree with you, or you're still harboring animosity from a previous disagreement. I would honestly like to be wrong about that, because I'm not looking to make an enemy out of you -- or out of anybody else, for that matter.

Look, I disagree with people on d3boards.com all the time. It doesn't mean anything personal; it doesn't mean that I'm trying to shout down their opinions or to shut them up altogether; and it certainly doesn't mean that I hold grudges. It's just me getting involved in a topic and indulging in some back-and-forth on it; no different, really, than what goes on in just about every sports talk show on radio or TV. Oh, and it doesn't mean that I refuse to admit when I'm wrong, either. There are plenty of times that I've done that as well.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMas intended to provide the definitive word on a topic such that opposing views should cease and desist, and that failing to do so will earn a certain ire and irritation with eventual suggestions of being a bad apple on the site.  You get irritated but then are never short of words in your repeatedly corrective replies.  Perhaps tedious for you, but no less tedious on the other side.

I only get irritated when a discussion is turned personal and/or political, or when I have to repeat the same point because it was missed previously ... or when Mr. Right threatens to punch me. ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 11, 2020, 06:47:11 PMAll that said, if I was unfair, I apologize.  Given a couple of similar scrapes with you in the past (last year), I have been very intent on being very fair to NPU and complimenting your work (and the other fellow's as well).

Well, that is appreciated on my part. Seriously and sincerely.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

PaulNewman

Oh boy.  Exhibit A, B and C.

Maybe it's just a style thing, but YOU have some impact on how your posting is taken by others (just as I do) and how that style lends itself to a view that you contend is totally fallacious.  And by that I mean the parsing apart and responding point by point with an authoritarian, "know-it-all"  air along with suggestions that a poster either misunderstood or just missed your point.  And the selective parsing in such an atomistic manner can sometimes seriously distort that a poster is trying to communicate.  Even though you said you are sometimes wrong (see, I saw that), your first, second and third instinct is to presume the poster just simply missed or  misunderstood your point.  Sometimes you seem to presume that your point and especially the logic behind it are infallible.  And sometimes imo your inferences and logic do not follow, or certainly don't follow necessarily (like being a good student having some correlation, by definition, with credibility and a benign take on motivation).  It's actually possible to disagree with your reasoning even when one fully gets the reasoning....in other words, to disagree on the merits rather than just due to poster reading and comprehension errors.  And I would guess that I'm far from the only poster who has had similar reactions and responses to your posting over your 20+ years here.

I never claimed to take the high road, but here again, how do YOU get to decide what road I "get"?  The original hard foul (out of the blue) was offered by Mr. McHugh.  You were and are silent there, which seems telling.  That's where the line was crossed and things became personal.  I responded in kind.

And talk about speculating...  You decided that I'm either engaging in an ad hominen or just wanting to insult.  And you presume I'm either really defensive and/or "harboring animosity."  Wow.  That's what they call in the business 'wild analysis.' 

Gregory Sager

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AM
Oh boy.  Exhibit A, B and C.

Maybe it's just a style thing, but YOU have some impact on how your posting is taken by others (just as I do) and how that style lends itself to a view that you contend is totally fallacious.  And by that I mean the parsing apart and responding point by point with an authoritarian, "know-it-all"  air along with suggestions that a poster either misunderstood or just missed your point.  And the selective parsing in such an atomistic manner can sometimes seriously distort that a poster is trying to communicate.  Even though you said you are sometimes wrong (see, I saw that), your first, second and third instinct is to presume the poster just simply missed or  misunderstood your point.  Sometimes you seem to presume that your point and especially the logic behind it are infallible.  And sometimes imo your inferences and logic do not follow, or certainly don't follow necessarily (like being a good student having some correlation, by definition, with credibility and a benign take on motivation).  It's actually possible to disagree with your reasoning even when one fully gets the reasoning....in other words, to disagree on the merits rather than just due to poster reading and comprehension errors.  And I would guess that I'm far from the only poster who has had similar reactions and responses to your posting over your 20+ years here.

Actually, you'd guess wrong in that regard. Of all the various places on d3boards.com where I post, you're the only one who gripes about my point-by-point posting methodology. (It didn't originate with me, BTW; it's called fisking, and in Internet terms it's been around for a long time.) I get into lots of debates on d3boards.com ... but you're the only one who wants to debate my style as well as my content.

I've never said that it wasn't possible to disagree with me on the merits of an issue. Heck, I've said as much in my previous posts here over the past few days. But most of this has more to do with your own issues rather than mine.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMI never claimed to take the high road, but here again, how do YOU get to decide what road I "get"?

It's easy. This was a completely above-board, non-personal discussion between the two of us until you put this in your response to Dave:

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 09, 2020, 04:59:10 PMI know once Sager and/or you chime in that's supposed to settle and end any discussion

That's where you made it personal. That's where the gauntlet was thrown down. QED.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMThe original hard foul (out of the blue) was offered by Mr. McHugh.  You were and are silent there, which seems telling.  That's where the line was crossed and things became personal.  I responded in kind.

By including me in your indictment? Does that seem fair? If you've got a beef with Dave, then direct it at Dave and nobody but Dave. Don't direct it at me as well, and then get all hot and bothered when I call you out for starting something.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMAnd talk about speculating...  You decided that I'm either engaging in an ad hominen or just wanting to insult.

You left me with very little choice in terms of drawing a conclusion when you attacked me without provocation.

Quote from: PaulNewman on January 12, 2020, 11:32:44 AMAnd you presume I'm either really defensive and/or "harboring animosity."  Wow.  That's what they call in the business 'wild analysis.'

Hardly. They're simply observations of how you've responded to me over the past two years. And this time you're the one who left off the tail end of the comment in question:

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 11, 2020, 09:35:19 PMI would honestly like to be wrong about that, because I'm not looking to make an enemy out of you -- or out of anybody else, for that matter.

I meant that, and still do.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

OldNed

I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I'm getting tired of the PN/GS online skirmish here.  Any chance we can put this in our rearview mirrors and talk about soccer again?  Please?  ;D

jknezek

Quote from: OldNed on January 15, 2020, 08:31:58 AM
I can't speak for anybody but myself, but I'm getting tired of the PN/GS online skirmish here.  Any chance we can put this in our rearview mirrors and talk about soccer again?  Please?  ;D

I was thinking this last night but then remembered it's the off season and there is almost nothing to talk about besides the odd coaching move or recruiting question. So we aren't really missing anything.

That being said, I do feel like the popcorn has gone a bit stale and they either need to whip out their... middle fingers?... and measure for the winner or do what my 8 year old twin boys do and play rock, paper, scissors for the last word while pretending to agree it's a draw.

It does appear all that is left is who gets the last word since the last couple posts had nothing substantive besides complaints about each other.

Hopkins92

I'm trying to type out a non-snarky way to say that not everyone is a fan of fisking without making it personal.

So, nothing personal, GS, but I'm not a huge fan of that technique. I'd written out a longer post about why, but I don't want to make a big deal out of it... it's not a big deal.