MBB: MAC Freedom League

Started by ljk, March 14, 2005, 09:28:34 AM

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jmcozenlaw

Quote from: Hooper on September 14, 2016, 09:31:26 AM
The demonstrates the total difference in coaching philosophy and academic reputation amongst schools in the Freedom.   DeSales recruits players for a 4 year experience.  Always has and probably always will.  Not saying there is anything wrong with it, just saying there is a difference in how programs are run and the players they target within the conference.

I know the DeSales program very well and I am close with one of the assistants. DeSales has had their share of transfers as well. They just had a D-II transfer come in this past season from Kutztown and a few years ago had a D-IAA transfer from Lehigh. The MAC is not the Centennial Conference and academic reputations really don't really vary much between schools. I happen to know a few players (would never list names here) who were very iffy applicants and would never have gotten into DeSales if not for hoops. It happens at all schools. Within this thread, either on this page or a page behind, I attached an article about the CPA Pass Rate amongst 79 schools in Pennsylvania. DelVal was 6th out of the 79.........above Carnegie Mellon, Pitt and Villanova. Lycoming, the only other MAC school on the top ten list, came in 3rd. Two MAC schools in the top six in the state.

http://www.delval.edu/news/delval-students-excel-on-the-cpa-exam

As I tell people all the time, a debit is a debit and a credit is a credit. The periodic table doesn't change for IVY League students vs. MAC students. War & Peace.......is War & Peace. Biology is Biology. I know MAC grads from many schools who are crushing it..........and I also know struggling Ivy League grads.

The transfer game takes place all across the MAC and most other conferences, much more so in football, and you are going to see much, much more of it as tuition continues to skyrocket and more students are choosing community colleges and JUCO's for the first two years (with all 60 credits transferring). Not all schools give out "superpackages" to a player or two each year, with their out-of-pocket costs coming out to $4,000-$5,000 a year. I know the parents of a few players who got these packages over the last couple of years at a few MAC schools. That is a much greater imbalance on the court than the transfer situation. ;)

gordonmann

We have all the MAC Freedom men's and women's schedules entered. For a little while the team pages will default to last season. But you can look at next season's schedules by changing the year in the URL.

http://d3hoops.com/teams/FDU-Florham/Women/2016-17/index
http://d3hoops.com/teams/Delaware_Valley/Men/2016-17/index

jmcozenlaw

Quote from: Hooper on September 14, 2016, 09:31:26 AM
The demonstrates the total difference in coaching philosophy and academic reputation amongst schools in the Freedom.   DeSales recruits players for a 4 year experience.  Always has and probably always will.  Not saying there is anything wrong with it, just saying there is a difference in how programs are run and the players they target within the conference.

Hooper, after throwing cold water on your post about "DeSales recruiting players for a 4 year experience" and giving a legit example about the false narrative regarding the "differing philosophies and academic reputations amongst schools in the Freedom" (i.e the CPA Exam Pass Rate)....................and never hearing back from you in six weeks as the facts crushed the designed bullsquat that you put in print, I have this DeSales nugget for you.

I was told that DeSales just brought in a basketball player with one year of eligibility remaining and that this is his FOURTH college!!!!! He averaged 20 points a game at Division II Shippensburg and is transferring from another Division II school (don't know the name), where he started.

This puts a death dagger in your September 14 post. Coval is no different than anybody else (per an insider) and DeSales is NOT Harvard. Please get that out of your head. I think that you are a current DeSales player just looking to stir up some crap and my comeback six weeks ago and this recent news have put your tail between your legs. ;)

Hooper

JM-

Thank you!  In all honesty, I don't know the academic travel habits of the player in question (but, he spent 2 years at Ship, so this is his 3rd "stop")?   Maybe he changed majors?  Maybe the Coach changed after his second Season?   Maybe he didn't like the social scene in rural Shippensburg?   Or to your point on JUCO transfers, maybe he spent the last 3 years saving up to attend DeSales U where his 90 credits will transfer? ;D ;D  Point is..  I have no clue on the Travel habits of Private Santiago..

I am sure Coach Silk can provide more info for you.   The kid went to Easton HS, so he is a local kid trying to get an education and play.   I have no problem with Coval providing an opportunity for a kid to play and get a Degree.   I have known him for 35 years and he has done a tremendous job at DeSales as a Coach (400+ wins) and AD.  His record speaks for itself and he has impacted hundreds of young men, the Campus and the community in a positive way.   I am not a player.  I didn't go to DeSales.  I realize it is not Harvard.   I apologize as I should not have made the statement on the Freedom.   My bad..  but I don't have to put my prehensile tail between my legs as we both lost that over 30 million years ago. 

Data is data.  Numbers can say anything you want them to say.   Your CPA Exam pass rate example (N=1) is just that.  An example of a great program, Professor at a particular Institution.   Kudos to them.   

In the end, none of this will matter as College will be FREE in 10 days.    I can't wait to not have a tuition bill next semester for my son.   ;D ;D

Dave-  great site, but I'm gonna stick to D3hoops from now on.   Good luck!






CCHoopster

PreSeason Coaches Poll In:

http://www.gomacsports.com/news/2016/10/27/MBB_1027161014.aspx

For the short version:

2016-17 MAC Freedom Men's Basketball Preseason Poll

1     DeSales                    47                      (5)         
2     Misericordia            45                      (3)         
3     King's                    30            
4     Wilkes                    29            
5     Eastern                     28            
6     Delaware Valley    22            
7     Manhattanville    15            
8     FDU-Florham              8   


Swap Eastern and Kings and that would be my order as of today.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Hooper on October 29, 2016, 10:50:10 AM
JM-

Thank you!  In all honesty, I don't know the academic travel habits of the player in question (but, he spent 2 years at Ship, so this is his 3rd "stop")?   Maybe he changed majors?  Maybe the Coach changed after his second Season?   Maybe he didn't like the social scene in rural Shippensburg?   Or to your point on JUCO transfers, maybe he spent the last 3 years saving up to attend DeSales U where his 90 credits will transfer? ;D ;D  Point is..  I have no clue on the Travel habits of Private Santiago..

I am sure Coach Silk can provide more info for you.   The kid went to Easton HS, so he is a local kid trying to get an education and play.   I have no problem with Coval providing an opportunity for a kid to play and get a Degree.   I have known him for 35 years and he has done a tremendous job at DeSales as a Coach (400+ wins) and AD.  His record speaks for itself and he has impacted hundreds of young men, the Campus and the community in a positive way.   I am not a player.  I didn't go to DeSales.  I realize it is not Harvard.   I apologize as I should not have made the statement on the Freedom.   My bad..  but I don't have to put my prehensile tail between my legs as we both lost that over 30 million years ago. 

Data is data.  Numbers can say anything you want them to say.   Your CPA Exam pass rate example (N=1) is just that.  An example of a great program, Professor at a particular Institution.   Kudos to them.   

In the end, none of this will matter as College will be FREE in 10 days.    I can't wait to not have a tuition bill next semester for my son.   ;D ;D

Dave-  great site, but I'm gonna stick to D3hoops from now on.   Good luck!

Great references. Sorry to lose you from the board.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

jmcozenlaw

Quote from: Hooper on October 29, 2016, 10:50:10 AM
JM-

Thank you!  In all honesty, I don't know the academic travel habits of the player in question (but, he spent 2 years at Ship, so this is his 3rd "stop")?   Maybe he changed majors?  Maybe the Coach changed after his second Season?   Maybe he didn't like the social scene in rural Shippensburg?   Or to your point on JUCO transfers, maybe he spent the last 3 years saving up to attend DeSales U where his 90 credits will transfer? ;D ;D  Point is..  I have no clue on the Travel habits of Private Santiago..

I am sure Coach Silk can provide more info for you.   The kid went to Easton HS, so he is a local kid trying to get an education and play.   I have no problem with Coval providing an opportunity for a kid to play and get a Degree.   I have known him for 35 years and he has done a tremendous job at DeSales as a Coach (400+ wins) and AD.  His record speaks for itself and he has impacted hundreds of young men, the Campus and the community in a positive way.   I am not a player.  I didn't go to DeSales.  I realize it is not Harvard.   I apologize as I should not have made the statement on the Freedom.   My bad..  but I don't have to put my prehensile tail between my legs as we both lost that over 30 million years ago. 

Data is data.  Numbers can say anything you want them to say.   Your CPA Exam pass rate example (N=1) is just that.  An example of a great program, Professor at a particular Institution.   Kudos to them.   

In the end, none of this will matter as College will be FREE in 10 days.    I can't wait to not have a tuition bill next semester for my son.   ;D ;D

Dave-  great site, but I'm gonna stick to D3hoops from now on.   Good luck!

Hooper - I went to Swarthmore for my undergrad............Wharton for my M.B.A.............and got a useless law degree from Dickinson (useless from the perspective of not using it :) ) I only came at you when you presented the false narrative of "differing academic philosophies amongst teams in the MAC". Data is in fact data. But in this case, you can't twist the numbers to create any story that you would like. When Lyco and DelVal have higher CPA pass rates than Carnegie Mellon, Pitt, Villanova, etc.........the numbers are what the numbers are.

I know Coach Coval very well (you were wrong on the Silk reference by the way) and I am much more tied in behind the scenes of the goings on of the MAC than many would believe. I have no problem "giving kids a chance", but when you came off with your "recruits for the four year experience" comment, I mentioned the kid who will play for one year (and take time from the players who have been part of the four year experience), a recent transfer from Kutztown, a former transfer from Bloomsburg and one from Lehigh.........and they all happened to be excellent players. No coach, including Coval, turns down that opportunity, even if he screws some players that have been with him for several years from a playing time perspective.

I could tell you a few things from two insiders that would make your skin crawl, but I would never go public with it.........and I'd like to stay on the site.

Best of luck to you my friend. God Bless.

kate

I am so enjoying the back and forth on here regarding the make-up of our MAC teams.  After 2006 when those 'like-minded' schools left the conference, implying that they were somehow superior ???, I re-examined our remaining teams and our new additions, and I am very happy with all of them, and love our diversity.  We all have our ups and downs in all our sports, but in general, we're almost always represented on the national stage - in a good way!  Long live the MAC!!!

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

kate-  you already know this, but it bears repeating: just because schools leave to create a conference of "like-minded" institutions, does not indicate they feel they are superior. Like-minded just means they have the same thoughts and opinions on many things like tuitions, discounts, budgets, etc. You can have like-minded institutions of all state schools (WIAC) or Ivy-League mentality (NESCAC).

Can we stop trying to either knock those who left or play the martyr card for those still in the MAC. Let's also remember the MAC has been a revolving door of a conference since the day it was founded. Yes, there are schools who have stayed, but those who have come and gone is a very long list which includes a large majority of the region.

In my opinion, the hurt-feelings bit has gotten old. It's been a decade after all.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

kate

The one thing that any of our MAC schools will have to do is 'play the martyr card'!!!  Holy smokes Dave - I think we're in pretty darn good shape!!!  Besides, it makes for much better rivalries though I know today's students don't have a clue.  No martyrs here - just thrilled with our diversity!!!

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: kate on November 01, 2016, 02:38:01 PM
After 2006 when those 'like-minded' schools left the conference, implying that they were somehow superior ??? ... Long live the MAC!!!

Those come across to me as martyr. And other comments about still hating the decision and not being able to let it go and bringing it up in conversation a decade later... that's why I say it.

It has nothing to do with how good or not good the conference is.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

kate

Dave, you KNOW how much d3 sports mean to me, and I could always see new conferences springing up for sizes of schools and distances travelled, but 'like minded' for d3 sports???  That will always be a stretch for me.  Besides, let me have the fun of a rivalry even though the kiddos, like I said before, don't have a clue.  Go Aggies and Go MAC!!! ;)!!!

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

kate - like-minded in Division III is what a majority of the conferences have been constructed around for most of the conference's history! Heck, D1 is all about like-minded, except their like-mindedness is more about making money in bowl games and positioning themselves for basketball and baseball tournaments. D3 schools have more of the academic side of things. It really isn't that uncommon across the board. It is that no one pays attention to notice it.

Think of these conferences and realize what all the schools in those conferences have in common (in no particular order):

UAA
NESCAC
SUNYAC
WIAC
CCIW
ODAC
NJAC
NEWMAC
MIAC
NCAC
OAC
MIAA
SCIAC
SAA
Centennial
Liberty
E8
Landmark

... just to name 18 of the 43 off the top of my head with like-minded characteristics of some kind. (No, I didn't list a majority, just the ones off the top of my head; I'd be happy when I have more time on my hands to list all of them and their reasons for formation.)

To prove how this this like-mindedness works, I have two examples:

- St. Anselm is trying to join Division III. They announced the move and mentioned in their first press release how they were very similar to several NEWMAC institutions. That mention was not a mistake. They planned to join that conference. It was rubber stamped from everything I was told. It fell apart. I haven't heard why, but it has left St. A. in limbo. They are now staying with their D2 conference for the short-term as they figure it out. Why? Because no other conference in the Northeast either fits what they are as an institution. They aren't going to fit well into the CCC which is a step-down from the NEWMAC and most of the CCC probably doesn't want them as a result. The NESCAC doesn't want them because they feel St. A. doesn't live up to their bar.

- The Liberty League is in some trouble right now in football. They have got to find one more institution to bring in or they are going to lose their football AQ in about two-years time (a little more). They lost some schools due to some conference shifts in football and had to bring in Ithaca to at least get one of those losses back. That move to bring in Ithaca was very contentious. Ithaca doesn't fit completely well with the rest of the Liberty. There are some holding their nose at the decision because holding onto that AQ is too import. But the Liberty despite it's desperation, has said no to other options like Alfred or won't consider others like Utica because they are even further "below" their standards of like-minded institutions. The Liberty is actually setting themselves up to lose a very important AQ (because an at-large bid for that conference with no AQ is somewhere between slim and no chance) because they can't find institutions that fit their mentality.

And like-minded isn't an easy answer. Like-minded can be items like average tuition cost, average discounts given, average amount of financial aid, average size of campuses, academic admission standards, academic standards period, average budget for school and/or athletic department, average rankings for whatever that means.

I know you love Division III, but you seem to miss the fact that like-minded is a very, very common thing in the entire NCAA ... especially because presidents and board of trustees make the ultimate decisions. Goucher and Catholic left the CAC because they were tired of trying to recruit against fellow conference mates that were state schools and thus far cheaper and lower academic standards (I can get into an argument about why they still face those challenges, but that is another discussion).

I am sure you will say you get all of this... but I don't know if you do. Like minded is why the Ivy League exists. It is why the Big 12 exists. That's where the original Big East came together (all catholic schools!). The SEC is all like-minded institutions (with the exception of Vanderbuilt to some extent).

The MAC in all of it's make-up has never had a like-minded per a lot of what I discuss, but they are like-minded in their way as well. It just may be a little harder to notice.

So yeah... like minded in Division III is actually extremely common and rather predictable whether you want to believe it or not. It is basically what makes up Division III - a like-minded mentality of not offering academic scholarships and making academics a priority. Inside of that, there are plenty of subsets.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

kate

Please know, Dave, that I appreciate very much your explanation.  I will re-read it to let it sink in.  I guess we're "lucky" here in the mid Atlantic region to have so very many D3 institutions making it easier to rev up a new league when things aren't going "just right".  I repeat this IS D3 sports we're talking about, and also, they DO mean a heck of a lot to me (especially Del Val).  I will re-read your explanation.

jmcozenlaw

Quote from: kate on November 02, 2016, 03:15:38 PM
Please know, Dave, that I appreciate very much your explanation.  I will re-read it to let it sink in.  I guess we're "lucky" here in the mid Atlantic region to have so very many D3 institutions making it easier to rev up a new league when things aren't going "just right".  I repeat this IS D3 sports we're talking about, and also, they DO mean a heck of a lot to me (especially Del Val).  I will re-read your explanation.

Kate, I only make commentary about "like minded" to refute points with facts. A DeSales poster came on here talking about the "standards" at DeSales (say what?) and how they only recruit four year players. I then brought up this year's player with one year left and this being his fourth school along with the very recent transfers of players (with a year or two left) from Kutztown, Bloomsburg and Lehigh........in addition to a handful of players who would have never gotten in without their D3 level hoops prowess. Point was made and could not be refuted.

Another genius talked up Scranton and the Landmark as if it was Harvard and the Ivy League. Again, say what?? When I brought up the fact (with the article attached) that Lycoming was #3 in the state of PA and DelVal was #6 in the state in terms of the CPA Exam pass rate. I think it opened up a few eyes. Two MAC schools, in the Top Six in PA, beating Carnegie-Mellon, Pitt and Villanova. When you come at people who throw slop against the wall.........I've learned that the presentation of facts quiets the majority of them.

Again........a debit is a debit. A credit is a credit. The periodic table of elements is the same at Bucks County Community College as it is everywhere else in the country. I've fired Ivy Leaguers. I've promoted men and women from Bucks CCC/Holy Family, Western Maryland (I still refer to the old names) and the old Trenton State. The guy who replaced my knee........DelVal grad. The vet who saved my dog........DelVal grad. The guy who taught me how to really trade commodities and futures.........Bloomsburg State. The young woman who got her B.S. and M.B.A. in four years and got a six figure accounting/consulting gig, and was one of the best basketball players in the MAC, east region and country.........Eirann Anastasia........from DelVal.

The "false narrative" is pervasive in higher education. People need to get over it as more and more families are choosing two years at community colleges, which are bursting at the seams to keep up with applications, construction, hiring, facility retrofitting...............as well as the state schools like Bloomsburg, West Chester, East Stroudsburg, Kutztown, etc.

If at an "elite" private school, the kid sitting in front of you and behind you did better in high school (and in many cases had some "life advantages") than the kid sitting behind and in front of you at a PA state school. But the textbooks are the same in both schools. You'll learn from someone in many cases with real world experience..........not a TA as the prof is "publishing or perishing" and you'll enjoy opportunities to succeed based on your work ethic and desire........not the name on a piece of paper, which means less and less as every year goes by.

And this, from a grad of a snobby, elitist school (Swarthmore) with an M.B.A. and a law degree. I see the "false narrative" every day and if I can find the publisher to back me, I'll write the book someday with hundreds of examples. I think it's very needed, especially with some. The entitled. Hey........I think that I just stumbled across a title. Now, for the subtitle!! ;)