FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

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Mr.MIAC

Quote from: OzJohnnie on November 14, 2017, 10:45:38 PM
Quote from: Reverend MIAC, PhD on November 14, 2017, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: miac952 on November 14, 2017, 10:01:23 PM
My final thought on academics. I Wil be curious how the new Dougherty school factors into admission standards for UST. Because they won't be enrolling as Freshman, if they choose to go there after 1-2 years at Dougherty, I would assume it isn't part of the freshman class enrollment.

I really, really like the concept of it, given that opportunity and affordability significantly limit some kids coming out of high school.

I was quite squeamish, and still am, when UST quietly started the journey of becoming more selective in their admissions. I don't know where the end point is, but I would guess the shift continues more towards numbers Sr Olaf has. It's nice to see them jumping up but that also makes me skittish because of its limitations. We had a fantastic kid in the neighborhood a few years back that was on pins and needles about getting into UST with a 25 ACT and 3.6 gpa. She got in, but the fact that it was a question mark made me think a bit. I don't know that your community is well served at a certain level of exclusivity.

The median ACT is roughly 27 at present. I've heard the goal is to move it to 31-32. The Dougherty School will allow UST to become a more selective national university while continuing to serve the local community.

31 ACT is top 3% of all results.  32 is top 2%.  27 is top 12%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_(test)#Score_cumulative_percentages_and_comparison_with_SAT

Of course, BC claims an average ACT of 32 so the target has been set.

http://www.prepscholar.com/act/s/colleges/Boston-College-ACT-scores-GPA

There are about 15.6m undergrads in university each year.  Let's make 30% of them freshman to account for attrition.  2% of 30% of 15.6m is 95,600 freshmen making up the top 2%.

http://howtoedu.org/college-facts/how-many-people-go-to-college-every-year/

The Ivy League accepts about 23k freshmen every year.

https://www.ivycoach.com/2017-ivy-league-admissions-statistics/

Assuming that the Ivy League (not accounting for other elite universities) takes the lion's share of the top 2%, then UST just to have a hope of making an average ACT entry of 32 would need about 60% of their 4700 accepted students to be top 2% (accounting for the longer tail toward the bottom when you want the average to be only 4 points off the max score of 36).

http://www.acceptancerate.com/minnesota

This means that of the remaining 75k of top 2% freshmen in the USA each year (after the Ivy League takes theirs - ignoring other elite universities for the moment) that means UST must attract 4700 * .6 = 2800 of the still uncommitted top 2%, or nearly 4% of them.  Over BC.  Over Stanford.  Over MIT.  Over Berkeley.  And on and on.

It seems to me there are a whole lot of schools claiming the lion's share of a very small pie.

(Of course, when UST's acceptance rate gets somewhere more selective than 86% (otherwise known as anyone who can breath and pay the tuition bill) then we'll see about them getting all elite.  Frickin' ridiculous, but entertaining, afternoon.)

1. You spend a lot of energy thinking about UST.
2. UST's acceptance rate is actually 83% at the moment. That's admittedly not good, but it still attracts a stronger cohort of matriculating students than SJU.
3. You're assuming UST's undergraduate numbers outside the Dougherty School will remain constant.

OzJohnnie

Undenied is the fact that UST has as good a chance of averaging an entrance score of 32 as Harvey Weinstein winning an Oscar.
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MUC57


OzJohnnie

Damn, I really enjoy reading your posts. Loved that long one you did on the ACT/SAT squabble.
Tried my best to understand it all. After all, I am a Mount grad, D+ average but second in my class. What's all the fuss about, as George Carlin would say?
Seems to me some of these Tommies boomerangs didn't come back. OK, I realize that's a pathetic analogy but the best I could do. Remember, Mount grad?
Go Johnnies and go Raiders!!!!!
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

art76

All the talk about the Scholastic Bowl got me wondering how the MIAC stacks up. I gleaned the following from this website:  https://www.mnprivatecolleges.org/our-colleges/carleton-college#overview

1. Carleton - ACT: 55% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 30 and 33

2. St. Olaf - ACT: 81% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 26 and 31

3. Gustavus - ACT: 78% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 24 and 30

4. St. Thomas - ACT: 97% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 24 and 29

5. St. John's - ACT: 93% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 23 and 28

6. Concordia - ACT: 93% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 22 and 28

7. - Tie -  Bethel - ACT: 96% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 21 and 28

7. - Tie - Hamline - ACT: 94% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 21 and 28

9. Augsburg - ACT: 97% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 19 and 24
You don't have a soul. You are a soul.
You have a body. - C.S. Lewis

Mr.MIAC

Quote from: art76 on November 15, 2017, 08:27:05 AM
All the talk about the Scholastic Bowl got me wondering how the MIAC stacks up. I gleaned the following from this website:  https://www.mnprivatecolleges.org/our-colleges/carleton-college#overview

1. Carleton - ACT: 55% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 30 and 33

2. St. Olaf - ACT: 81% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 26 and 31

3. Gustavus - ACT: 78% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 24 and 30

4. St. Thomas - ACT: 97% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 24 and 29

5. St. John's - ACT: 93% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 23 and 28

6. Concordia - ACT: 93% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 22 and 28

7. - Tie -  Bethel - ACT: 96% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 21 and 28

7. - Tie - Hamline - ACT: 94% of students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 21 and 28

9. Augsburg - ACT: 97% of first-year students submitted; middle 50% of enrolled students had ACT composite scores between 19 and 24

Disengage! Disengage! Any detailed analysis of MIAC schools that presents SJU as anything other than #1 won't be tolerated by the Johnnie Smokefest.

jamtod

Since Macalester is still in the MIAC for everything other than fartball, where do they fit in? I'm guessing #2 or 3?

OldAuggie

Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 15, 2017, 09:14:07 AM
Since Macalester is still in the MIAC for everything other than fartball, where do they fit in? I'm guessing #2 or 3?
We are deep in to the college selection/decision process with a daughter already a college junior and another one a high school senior about to decide and I can tell you confidently they will be #2 on this list.
MIAC champions 1928, 1997

OldAuggie

MAC -  63% of first year students submitted: Middle range of ACT between 29-33
2nd place.
MIAC champions 1928, 1997

miac952

St Olaf has shifted a bit in the last 5 - 10 years. They were more or less grouped with UST, SJU, and Gustavus previously. If UST continues to push upward I cant see it going beyond St Olaf. To others points, your market narrows big time, and you start to completely change the identity of your university.

Of the D3 academic elite there seem to be two types:

1. Your tried and true liberal arts undergrad colleges: Carleton, Mac, Williams & much of the NESCAC. In elevating their standards this appears to be the route St Olaf is seeking out.

2. Fairly large and nationally recognized research universities: Wash U, Hopkins, RPI, Emory, etc. All these schools have graduate engineering or medical schools that are at the top of the heap nationally and internationally.

St Thomas and others in the MIAC with grad programs are a LONG WAYS from #2. They could open up a medical school in partnership with Mayo tomorrow and be a LONG WAYS from #2. Mayo's med school rep carries far less weight than it does as a clinical institution. Its small and niche and doesn't show up in any rankings.

If a school want to go the Wash U or Emory route, more power to you. But it wont come easy. 2 -3 decades of painstaking work, investments, and partnerships while sustaining losses in your enrollment. It won't happen in the next 5 - 10 years.

The other more macro issue at play is what happens when most schools start pushing up their standards. Either kids get better at taking the tests or their arent places for them to go. The U of M has elevated, Eau Claire and LaCrosse have pushed upward. Selectivity is nice for alumni that went there to parade around their piece of paper with, but Im not convinced its to the benefit of the region it serves.


sfury

When Tommies learn how to use apostrophes the school's standing in fake academic rankings is going to take off in the same way the football team did with Caruso.

USTBench

Quote from: sfury on November 15, 2017, 12:54:45 PM
When Tommies learn how to use apostrophes the school's standing in fake academic rankings is going to take off in the same way the football team did with Caruso.

You Johnnie's sure our nitpicky.
Augsburg University: 2021 MIAC Spring Football Champions

Mr.MIAC

Quote from: miac952 on November 15, 2017, 12:46:26 PM
St Olaf has shifted a bit in the last 5 - 10 years. They were more or less grouped with UST, SJU, and Gustavus previously. If UST continues to push upward I cant see it going beyond St Olaf. To others points, your market narrows big time, and you start to completely change the identity of your university.

Of the D3 academic elite there seem to be two types:

1. Your tried and true liberal arts undergrad colleges: Carleton, Mac, Williams & much of the NESCAC. In elevating their standards this appears to be the route St Olaf is seeking out.

2. Fairly large and nationally recognized research universities: Wash U, Hopkins, RPI, Emory, etc. All these schools have graduate engineering or medical schools that are at the top of the heap nationally and internationally.

St Thomas and others in the MIAC with grad programs are a LONG WAYS from #2. They could open up a medical school in partnership with Mayo tomorrow and be a LONG WAYS from #2. Mayo's med school rep carries far less weight than it does as a clinical institution. Its small and niche and doesn't show up in any rankings.

If a school want to go the Wash U or Emory route, more power to you. But it wont come easy. 2 -3 decades of painstaking work, investments, and partnerships while sustaining losses in your enrollment. It won't happen in the next 5 - 10 years.

The other more macro issue at play is what happens when most schools start pushing up their standards. Either kids get better at taking the tests or their arent places for them to go. The U of M has elevated, Eau Claire and LaCrosse have pushed upward. Selectivity is nice for alumni that went there to parade around their piece of paper with, but Im not convinced its to the benefit of the region it serves.

From what I've heard, UST is actively courting Mayo Medical School for a merger. I'm not sure which rankings you've been following, but it looks like Mayo Medical School is currently ranked #20 nationally.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings?int=af3309&int=b3b50a&int=b14409

sfury

Quote from: USTBench on November 15, 2017, 12:58:20 PM
Quote from: sfury on November 15, 2017, 12:54:45 PM
When Tommies learn how to use apostrophes the school's standing in fake academic rankings is going to take off in the same way the football team did with Caruso.

You Johnnie's sure our nitpicky.

I try to never be a punctuation snob online because those people are absolutely awful, but I'm willing to make an exception after 28 pages of academic greatness talk.

miac952

Yes. It sounds like talks have heated up again between Mayo, UST, and a local partner health system.

In both NIH (strictly quantitative research & academic funding) and US News (Mayo gets  residual reputation weight in US News that carries a BS factor to it) they are on the edge of top 20. Ok, but not great, and it hasn't moved much in the last two decades.

Also, the proof will be in the pudding if a deal were to come together what exactly it would look like. The all powerful Mayo Clinic will not be handing over their med school and say "here you go." It will start with a small class as a satellite program to Rochester, and then maybe evolve to a family med residency deals with a a health system. In short, fellowships in Neurosurgery, and biomedical research between engineering and the med school on genomic sequencing wont be seen at UST anytime in the next decade or two. It is a LONG journey to get to where Wash U, Emory, and Hopkins are.

SUMMIT!!!!!

Quote from: sfury on November 15, 2017, 01:02:51 PM
Quote from: USTBench on November 15, 2017, 12:58:20 PM
Quote from: sfury on November 15, 2017, 12:54:45 PM
When Tommies learn how to use apostrophes the school's standing in fake academic rankings is going to take off in the same way the football team did with Caruso.

You Johnnie's sure our nitpicky.

I try to never be a punctuation snob online because those people are absolutely awful, but I'm willing to make an exception after 28 pages of academic greatness talk.
They're aint no place four gramer and punk'tation discussions on this hear bored. Haint' it suppos'sed to bees about foot'ball and beer, not academic's and classroom learning's?
After the game, the king and pawn go into the same box.

Italian proverb