Lacrosse

Started by drisclaw, July 03, 2011, 09:27:41 PM

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PolarCat

MUC57, I'm fine with you and me staying "friends".  It's not your behavior I question.

Unlike football, lacrosse points are scored one at a time.  So it takes 28 separate scoring plays to reach 28 points, vs. 4.  Unlike football, a team can retain possession for as long as they like; there's no need to march 10 yards every 4 downs, then score or turn the ball over.  And unlike basketball, there's no shot clock (though some folks think there should be), so a team can possess the ball and burn the clock without actually going to net.

Viewed in that context, I personally feel that running up a 28-1 score is inexcusable.  Not only are you deliberately embarrassing the opposing team, but keeping your starters in for the whole game is a huge disservice to the girls on your bench.  They showed up for the preseason speed training and weight training, they worked hard at practice all year, and they've made the long bus rides (and soon, plane trips) to games, when they could have been studying for exams or hanging out with their boyfriends (or girlfriends).  Let 'em play!

It's also unfair to those girls' parents, who travel to the games or tune in online, only to watch Betty and Sally ride the pine when the outcome has clearly been decided.  I bet if you hung out on the sidelines with the parents, you'd hear a lot of griping.

Mount Union was up 12-1 over Baldwin Wallace at halftime, yet your coach kept her starters in for the second half.  7 of Mount Union's second half goals were scored by starters; the 8th by a girls who may as well have been a starter, since she scored the first of her 5 goals just a minute and a half into the first period.  That really rubs me the wrong way.  Why not give the other girls a chance to play in a championship game, when the outcome has already been decided? 

With all due respect to Vandy (whose opinion I value), I don't think a coach accomplishes anything positive for the program by playing that way, regardless of how weak the conference may be. As a parent, I'd never let my daughter play for a coach who displayed that mindset.   D3 sports should be teaching young men and women different life lessons, like treating opponents with respect and celebrating ALL your players when the conditions permit.

Others may disagree, and I will now step down off my soap box.

amh63

PolarCat...like your "big " soapbox. :).  Plus K
Still recovering over Vandy's golf handicap.  Guess he spends time on the Middlebury golf course...not as good as Williams' course...though few college courses are, if any.  Did hear that Yale has a superb one.  Saw an WSJ article about a positive future medical procedure to help people with "joint" problems/limitations....including arthritic ones?  SometHing about replacing the meniscus...the joint cushion...using 3-D printing and growing artificial ones or cloning replacements with the patient's cells.
Once again...too much time in 80 degree weather.  Good luck to all the Lax teams in the the Big Dance....conference teams...both men and women.  Oh yes....Midd's men's golf team will represent the conference in the post season.

amh63

The men's conference teams in the Lax post season....Amherst, Tufts, Middlebury and Bates...have been put in the same bracket.  This means that Amherst may play Middlebury in the second round and Tufts could play Bates in the 2nd round.  For the Quarter finals...the 3 rd round...could end up with an All CAC match up.  Busy Wednesday online viewing.

NCF

Quote from: PolarCat on May 05, 2015, 03:21:31 PM
MUC57, I'm fine with you and me staying "friends".  It's not your behavior I question.

Unlike football, lacrosse points are scored one at a time.  So it takes 28 separate scoring plays to reach 28 points, vs. 4.  Unlike football, a team can retain possession for as long as they like; there's no need to march 10 yards every 4 downs, then score or turn the ball over.  And unlike basketball, there's no shot clock (though some folks think there should be), so a team can possess the ball and burn the clock without actually going to net.

Viewed in that context, I personally feel that running up a 28-1 score is inexcusable.  Not only are you deliberately embarrassing the opposing team, but keeping your starters in for the whole game is a huge disservice to the girls on your bench.  They showed up for the preseason speed training and weight training, they worked hard at practice all year, and they've made the long bus rides (and soon, plane trips) to games, when they could have been studying for exams or hanging out with their boyfriends (or girlfriends).  Let 'em play!

It's also unfair to those girls' parents, who travel to the games or tune in online, only to watch Betty and Sally ride the pine when the outcome has clearly been decided.  I bet if you hung out on the sidelines with the parents, you'd hear a lot of griping.

Mount Union was up 12-1 over Baldwin Wallace at halftime, yet your coach kept her starters in for the second half.  7 of Mount Union's second half goals were scored by starters; the 8th by a girls who may as well have been a starter, since she scored the first of her 5 goals just a minute and a half into the first period.  That really rubs me the wrong way.  Why not give the other girls a chance to play in a championship game, when the outcome has already been decided? 

With all due respect to Vandy (whose opinion I value), I don't think a coach accomplishes anything positive for the program by playing that way, regardless of how weak the conference may be. As a parent, I'd never let my daughter play for a coach who displayed that mindset.   D3 sports should be teaching young men and women different life lessons, like treating opponents with respect and celebrating ALL your players when the conditions permit.

Others may disagree, and I will now step down off my soap box.

No offense meant here, but this collegiate athletics we're talking about here,  not Little League or youth sports. Everyone doesn't get equal playing time and a coach has to do whatever he/she thinks is the way to prepare his or her players for the conference tournament (and beyond) by having them play a full game. Winning by a lopsided score does NOT automatically mean a coach is disrespecting another team. Some conferences may only have one or two really talented teams. Them's the breaks. Everyone came to conditioning, pre-season and several of the top players work-out all year round. And by the way, those players also make time to study, have girlfriends, play a second sport and hold a part-time job. Those that play the majority of minutes have earned it. That's why you see so many kids quit, they don't have what it takes to stick it out and EARN their playing time. And yes, I know someone who actually accomplished all of the above and was (still is) one of the most humble athletes you'd ever meet. Don't assume anything, unless you know the circumstances and the situations.  Time for me to get off my soapbox now. :P :P And good luck to all the teams represented by posters here. The interest in lacrosse is growing every year. Looking forward to a very competitive tourney.
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
CCIW MEN'S OUTDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: 35
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2013 OAC post season pick-em tri-champion
2015 CCIW Pick-em co-champion

PolarCat

amh63, thanks for your critique of the relative difficulty of the Amherst vs.  Williams courses.  If I ever decide to take up the game seriously I will keep that in mind.  But I'm afraid the only hole I ever mastered was the 19th.  Nowadays my biggest challenge is the one with the windmill.  Though sometimes the one where you putt downhill down the orange dinosaur's back also gives me a problem.

Damn, I am showing my age.  What were we talking about, again?

Vandy74

Quote from: amh63 on May 05, 2015, 10:49:19 AM
Vandy74....see that you have a Spotted cat in the family :). Always suspected that the Foote family were "Cool Cats" as well as "Lords of the Manor"....so to speak ;D
Just learned that your lovely state has less than 700,000 citizens.  If you get the chance...congrat the men's tennis coach for me.  See the Panthers are building a tennis powerhous....must be the new field house!

amh63,

You have quite a way with words.  It must be that Amherst education kicking in. ;)  Thanks for the heads up on the MC tennis.  I know HC Bob Hanson.  He's a huge Panther MBB fan.  As is his charming wife.  He had nothing left to prove when he took the job at Middlebury 4-5 years ago after a very successful run at UC-Santa Cruz.  Now be honest, are you happier about the trouncing Amherst gave us or what we recently did to Williams? :D   The new field house is primarily an indoor track facility, btw.  The subject of the Williams golf course came up in conversation at Missy's recent retirement dinner.  I was fortunate enough to play a course in Williamstown years ago and it was a treat to do so.  Assuming it's the same one I admit Williams' course is better than Middlebury's.  Lately, however, I have to agree with PolarCat.  The 19th hole can't happen soon enough and I don't like windmill hazards at all.

PolarCat

#456
Going back on topic for a moment.

Since there seems to be some difference in philosophy between us New Englanders and some Mid-Westerners, I thought it would be interesting to see how one of the premier Mid-Western programs with a legendary coach handles these kinds of situations.

Northwestern beat Rutgers 18-6 earlier this year.  Not a blow-out per se (I'm not sure there even is such a thing when you're playing at the B1G level), but certainly a lop-sided victory.  Kelly Amonte Hiller gave TWENTY FOUR of her subs playing time in that game.  I'm not sure how many players were on the travel squad that day, but I am guessing 24 represents pretty much the entire bench.

They followed a similar philosophy against a ranked opponent, playing 17 subs in their 16-6 victory over #20 Ohio State.

I know coaches can and do have different philosophies.  But Kelly's record speaks for itself, and players (and parents) would die to be recruited by her. 

MUC57


First, thanks to Vandy74 and NCF for offering a different perspective on our discussion of Mount Union "running up the score". As I've said before, I'm new to the world of lacrosse. Excuse me for being a tad naïve.

PolarCat

I agree with many of your comments; however, I do take exception with "maybe Cortland can beat them 30-5 so they know how it feels". Last year in the playoffs, Cortland beat them 20-5. Interestingly enough, the same score by which Mount beat Baldwin-Wallace last Sat. You didn't seem to like that, but I guess it's OK if you're Cortland or it's the playoffs. The point is, Mount Union knows very well what it's like to get whipped, if that's the right word. How did you think they should feel? I'm pretty sure they weren't on top of the world but they also didn't crawl into a hole.
They seem to have done very well this year after that.
I have learned a lot on this board from different posters, all of which will help me follow my newfound interest in the great game of lacrosse. So this guy from a small Midwestern school, in only it's third year of play, will defer to those of you from the "elite schools of lacrosse" on comments. Maybe someday Mount Union................
In parting I leave you with another Hawaiian word-"pomaika'i". Means good luck.
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

PolarCat

#458
MUC, I did not follow the tournament last year, but if the Cortland coach had kept his starters in, I would have been every bit as upset about that score.  However, if the Cortland bench played the second half and you still got blown out that bad, that's a different kettle of fish.

Given Mount Union's pattern of running up the score on opponents in 2014, maybe the Cortland coach was sending them a message?

If I can find some time today, I'll do that research and report back.

EDIT: God, I love Google.  Cortland played TWENTY SEVEN players in that game.  Here's the link to the game summary: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/w_lacrosse_champs_records/2014/d3/html/cortmu.htm

We can monopolize this board and beat this topic to death, but I bet the rest of the posters would rather we go back to talking about golf.  Fore?

Vandy74

Quote from: PolarCat on May 06, 2015, 09:49:34 AM




EDIT: God, I love Google.  Cortland played TWENTY SEVEN players in that game.  Here's the link to the game summary: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/w_lacrosse_champs_records/2014/d3/html/cortmu.htm

We can monopolize this board and beat this topic to death, but I bet the rest of the posters would rather we go back to talking about golf.  Fore?

NO PLEASE  Not golf.  As much as I enjoy playing the game it is the most boring thing in the world to read about. ::) ::)

But seriously.  This topic has been beaten to death.  Since we now, at long last, have a few new posters keenly interested in a game they are just learning to fully appreciate however, there is a lot more to be said on the matter.  I would like to do that but unfortunately I have a somewhat busy late afternoon and a social evening planned.  I will try to do some of it as soon as possible but it involves so many complexities it might take some time.  PolarCat, 27 Cortland players saw game action but only 19 were really involved short of perhaps the final minute.  Look at the personal stats.  Seven non-starters obviously played throughout the second half but since your daughter plays while not starting, and plays well from what I witnessed in 3 or 4 games, you know that several Cortland players also see quality time without being on the field at the beginning of the game.  It only makes sense that good teams can go 4 or 5 extra players deep without doing an over matched opponent any favors. Cortland eased up with a 14-2 halftime lead by starting the second string GK after the intermission.  That's the key to the point you want to make.  The starters were clearly in the game for at least 15 minutes longer.   That's based on who scored for them.  Mt. Union didn't score for another 6 minutes so who knows when the best defenders were replaced.  The four players who have no stats to show (I don't include the backup GK) and the four others who only caused a single turnover or collected one ground ball, that sort of thing, couldn't have been on the field for more than a minute or so.  Yes, Cortland knew the game was won by halftime.  The change of GK is the proof but they kept everyone else in much longer.  But they were in a tournament where the opposition was going to become progressively stronger.  You don't keep your skills honed by sitting.

I've gone on longer here than I meant to and hope I've made clear that both sides of the issue have valid arguments.  But to repeat one very important one, Bowdoin (NESCAC) and Mt. Union live in different worlds.  Asking them to play the same way is unfair.  No team in the upcoming tournament doesn't know that Bowdoin can beat them.  No team east of the Appalachians considers Mt. Union to be more than a scrimmage game.  They think they are better than that.  It will be good for the game of lacrosse when they (or Augie or anyone else in the western region) proves it.  This year they have been seeded in a way that gives them a 2nd round game they have a chance to win.  If they had played nice and won every game 16-4 against the weak schedule that was not their fault they would be playing Wis-Concordia and then be playing Trinity.  That's just the way it works.

I have one rather funny anecdotal post to make but held off because alone it would have continued to stir up this can of worms.  I'll get to it eventually. 

Gray Fox

Quote from: amh63 on May 05, 2015, 05:20:12 PM
The men's conference teams in the Lax post season....Amherst, Tufts, Middlebury and Bates...have been put in the same bracket.  This means that Amherst may play Middlebury in the second round and Tufts could play Bates in the 2nd round.  For the Quarter finals...the 3 rd round...could end up with an All CAC match up.  Busy Wednesday online viewing.
Money talks at playoff time for the NCAA.  Minimize travel.
Fierce When Roused

PolarCat

Vandy,

To be accurate, my PolarKitten is a starter.  And I will never, ever be smart enough to understand how the selection committee seeds brackets, so can't opine on how their bracket placement might have been different if they'd been a little less enthusiastic in beating down opponents.  But I agree with the sentiment of your post.

Since golf is verboten, thank God Deflate Gate is back in the news.  That should keep us occupied while we wait for the MLAX news to trickle in.

Vandy74

Quote from: PolarCat on May 06, 2015, 06:28:48 PM
Vandy,

To be accurate, my PolarKitten is a starter.  And I will never, ever be smart enough to understand how the selection committee seeds brackets, so can't opine on how their bracket placement might have been different if they'd been a little less enthusiastic in beating down opponents.  But I agree with the sentiment of your post.

Since golf is verboten, thank God Deflate Gate is back in the news.  That should keep us occupied while we wait for the MLAX news to trickle in.

My apologies to PolarKitten.  As I said, she certainly plays like a starter.  As for the seeding of the western reps in past brackets, I've followed it for three seasons now.  Unfortunately they don't archive them anywhere that I have been able to find but Mt. Union is being given a chance this year that would have been denied them in the last few.  They may succeed.  They may fall flat on their faces.  That's why they play the games. 8-) 8-)   Do you mind if I play through? :D

amh63

#463
Some comments....
First...the 4 conference teams...in the same bracket....is like a repeat of the conference tourney.  All are highly ranked nationally...prefer new opponents....therefore a possible final 4 of CAC teams :).
Wrt to money..I agree on that point....however, all the CAC teams are hosting and their opponents have to travel....travel money differential is "peanuts".
Vandy...my congrats are for winning the Nescac title by beating the Ephs :).  The golf course in Willytown is the Taconic course...owned by Williams.  I walked the course with a friend who likes to play iconic great courses...Congressional in Md, Pebble Beach, the public course in LaJolla, Ca.....you get the pix.  Anyway, I was impressed with the caddy carts that followed you around...no golf carts. It was almost two decades ago....the technology application amused me.  It was on a business trip to Pittsfield, Ma.
Oh yes,  the men's games today.  Tufts crushed its opponent, Emmanual..21-6...led the entire game.  Amherst beat Castelton, 20-4 and Middlebury finally found its mojo in the 2nd half and won handily over Montclair St.   Bates is in a battle with Keene St...a team they beat earlier.

PolarCat

My son (PolarCub?) was at the Bates-Keene game, and reports it got really ugly in the second half, with a Keene player being ejected for some extreme naughtiness.  I will spare you the details till we see the story confirmed online, as he was not exactly an impartial source.  (The game summary shows a 3 minute penalty for slashing, which seems pretty significant, but I have a hard enough time following the rules of the women's game).  In the end, the Bobcats prevailed 16-11.