CCIW

Started by Mr. Ypsi, September 04, 2009, 08:57:08 PM

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cciwrabblerouser

it's a little quiet in here (i know, i know, you're all over in the cciw basketball room right now, but...)

here is a multiple choice question and, yea, it's designed to rile up a few people.  please don't take it personally ...   ;D

the wheaton college soccer program has become ...
1) the north park of the chicago suburbs
2) the messiah of the midwest
3) both 1) and 2)
4) neither 1) or 2)


KICKIN95

#4, I think they are a better team than NP, but are not near dominate enough in the midwest to be considered #2. Loras is more than likely the one team in the midwest that would bear that title and respectfully wouldn't want it (who wants to be known as the anything of anything in your own Division?). Over the past 8 years Loras is 5-2-1 against the Thunder. I will say that Wheaton is the one match every year that worries me more than any other on the DuHawks schedule.
Master of all things "DuHawk"

gustiefan04

I think one could argue that Messiah is the "new" Wheaton. Wheaton has been in more NCAA tournaments than just about every school. While undeniably dominate, Messiah's success has come just in the last 10-12 years. Wheaton has been kicking butt and taking names for many decades.

Unfortunately I don't think any team is quite on Messiah's level at this time. I would echo Kickin in that Loras is probably the closest to that in the Midwest.

I don't get the North Park comparison. NP has a lot of talent, and they really have risen to be a contender in the CCIW. But they aren't anywhere near Wheaton with regard to conference championships, tournament appearances and success. Not trying to knock NP, I like their program, but they don't have the same longevity as Wheaton, yet.

augie77

I agree with KICKIN95.  I do think Loras was a slightly better team than Wheaton this year.  The two teams played twice and both games could have gone either way (the regular season game was scoreless until about 6 minutes to play and was as equal as can be statistically.  The quarterfinal match was won by Loras 1-0, but Wheaton just missed a shot off a header to tie in the closing seconds that was just barely over the crossbar.  I'm  not saying Wheaton necessarily deserved to win either or both, but the teams are close in ability.

Wheaton has 10 starters back next year (all except the keeper), and I understand the bulk of Loras' scoring is back as well, so this should remain a good rivalry.

North Park is a respected opponent, but not nearly as good as Loras.  I do think North Park tends to be a Wheaton wannabee.  Nobody beats their fan section though.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: gustiefan04 on December 10, 2012, 10:00:56 AMI don't get the North Park comparison. NP has a lot of talent, and they really have risen to be a contender in the CCIW. But they aren't anywhere near Wheaton with regard to conference championships, tournament appearances and success. Not trying to knock NP, I like their program, but they don't have the same longevity as Wheaton, yet.

Well, if longevity is your yardstick, nobody in the CCIW is ever going to be dominant other than Wheaton. Why? Because Wheaton not only excelled at soccer long before everybody else in the CCIW, it cared about soccer long before everybody else in the CCIW. Soccer is such a latecomer by CCIW standards that it wasn't even sanctioned as a sponsored sport by the league until 1988, over four decades after the league began -- and yet Wheaton's been playing the sport since 1935, and it's been going to NCAA tournaments since the mid-'70s. Heck, most CCIW schools didn't even start their soccer programs until after Wheaton had begun making the NCAA tourney on a regular basis; NPU, for example, didn't turn its' club team into a varsity program until 1982. Two CCIW schools started their soccer programs after the sport had already become sponsored by the league, Carthage in 1995 and Elmhurst in 2004. It's safe to say that the sport was an afterthought in most CCIW athletic departments right up into the last decade. So, yeah, Wheaton's been a strong program for a lot of years -- but to compare it historically to other CCIW teams makes no sense, because nobody else in the league really cared at all about the sport until relatively recently.

As for one program being better than another, I think that the more recent past is a better way to measure success than all-time achievements. Otherwise, you'd get into a situation in which people would be touting NPU for having won an unprecedented (by D3 standards) five national championships in men's basketball, when in present terms NPU is not very good at all in men's basketball, nor has it been good for quite awhile.

Quote from: augie77 on December 10, 2012, 01:33:50 PMI do think North Park tends to be a Wheaton wannabee.

NPU doesn't want to be Wheaton in anything, aside from the size of the school's bank account. We have our own identity, our own mission, and our own way of doing things, thankyouverymuch. Wheaton is not the be-all and end-all of Christian colleges, you know, nor is it the template that every other Christian college administration seeks to imitate.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

augie77


NPU doesn't want to be Wheaton in anything, aside from the size of the school's bank account. We have our own identity, our own mission, and our own way of doing things, thankyouverymuch. Wheaton is not the be-all and end-all of Christian colleges, you know, nor is it the template that every other Christian college administration seeks to imitate.
[/quote]

That's a fair statement.  My reference is to the soccer team specifically, and the athletics program in general.

cciwrabblerouser

once again, mr. sager waxes eloquent, and i agree, 100 percent, with him.  my question wasn't meant to be about longevity -- it is about current-day, and maybe a few years before, when the current seniors were lowly freshmen.

wheaton's men have not come close to maintaining his historical achievements (as greg admitted, don't talk about npu's championship basketball teams either).  indeed, north park is on par with wheaton in terms of results, and its fan base is unquestionably better. 

i also agree with others who believe that loras currently deserves the title of 'the messiah of the midwest.'  it used to be that other schools would look at wheaton and be athletic wannabes in soccer.  i'm sure that loras would take its recent results over wheaton any day.

maybe this is opening up a whole can of worms (well, hey, my name is 'cciwrabblerouser') but why didn't wheaton go in-house in terms of hiring an alum when joe bean retired?  the most successful schools in division III have alums leading their best programs (wheaton did it by replacing bill harris with mike schauer, an alum, in basketball, and that program hasn't missed a beat) so why did the powers-that-be go with an 'outsider' who had nothing to do with all that tradition?  (messiah is a perfect example  of that, when they hired an experienced alum to succeed the 'legendary' dave brandt.  mccarty's teams haven't dropped at all in four years).

i'm just trying to get a handle on what has happened at wheaton over the past 5-10 years.  did the increased success of football put thunder soccer on a back-burner?  was it something else?  it's just curious to see a program drop back from national eminence, because once it does it's really, really difficult to regain that storied status.  just ask greg sager about that -- he saw it at his alma mommy in hoops.

augie77

It's curious that you seem to be writing an obituary for a team that just missed the Final Four and who has nearly all its key players coming back next year.  Granted, the wheels seemed to come off for a couple of years, but the ship has been righted.

cciwrabblerouser

augie77.  what you say, i cannot argue with.  the thunder  program is not dead so i'm mean to imply that.  but it hasn't been the same program that it was when it won its first and only national title back in 1984 and since joe bean retired and the team had that magical run (how else can that post-season run be described?) that fall? 

augie77

Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on December 11, 2012, 03:35:31 PM
augie77.  what you say, i cannot argue with.  the thunder  program is not dead so i'm mean to imply that.  but it hasn't been the same program that it was when it won its first and only national title back in 1984 and since joe bean retired and the team had that magical run (how else can that post-season run be described?) that fall?

Wheaton also won it all in 1997.


blue_jays

Quote from: cciwrabblerouser on December 11, 2012, 11:55:10 AM
once again, mr. sager waxes eloquent, and i agree, 100 percent, with him.  my question wasn't meant to be about longevity -- it is about current-day, and maybe a few years before, when the current seniors were lowly freshmen.

wheaton's men have not come close to maintaining his historical achievements (as greg admitted, don't talk about npu's championship basketball teams either).  indeed, north park is on par with wheaton in terms of results, and its fan base is unquestionably better. 

i also agree with others who believe that loras currently deserves the title of 'the messiah of the midwest.'  it used to be that other schools would look at wheaton and be athletic wannabes in soccer.  i'm sure that loras would take its recent results over wheaton any day.

maybe this is opening up a whole can of worms (well, hey, my name is 'cciwrabblerouser') but why didn't wheaton go in-house in terms of hiring an alum when joe bean retired?  the most successful schools in division III have alums leading their best programs (wheaton did it by replacing bill harris with mike schauer, an alum, in basketball, and that program hasn't missed a beat) so why did the powers-that-be go with an 'outsider' who had nothing to do with all that tradition?  (messiah is a perfect example  of that, when they hired an experienced alum to succeed the 'legendary' dave brandt.  mccarty's teams haven't dropped at all in four years).

i'm just trying to get a handle on what has happened at wheaton over the past 5-10 years.  did the increased success of football put thunder soccer on a back-burner?  was it something else?  it's just curious to see a program drop back from national eminence, because once it does it's really, really difficult to regain that storied status.  just ask greg sager about that -- he saw it at his alma mommy in hoops.

First of all, it's really hard to win in soccer. There's a lot of luck involved in games that routinely end in a 2-1 or 1-0 score. Also, D3 soccer is much better than it used to be across the nation, so better competition means more parity.
It's semi well-known that Wheaton did try to hire from within, but it didn't work out. So they went with Giuliano, who won a bunch of national titles at Westmont. Plus he's a great recruiter.
Last but not least, you seem to forget the 1997 Wheaton team that won a national title and was one of the great collections of talent you'll ever see at this level. Eric Brown and Rob Mouw would run right over these Loras and Messiah teams of recent vintage. And if you didn't see them, you missed out.

KICKIN95

Quote from: gustiefan04 on December 10, 2012, 10:00:56 AM
I think one could argue that Messiah is the "new" Wheaton. Wheaton has been in more NCAA tournaments than just about every school. While undeniably dominate, Messiah's success has come just in the last 10-12 years. Wheaton has been kicking butt and taking names for many decades.
One thing you might not realize about "Messiah success coming just in the last 10-12 years" is that they didn't join the NCAA until 13 years ago.  Before that they were in the NCCAA and had 2 titles under their belt in that league as well.  Their very first year in DIII they won the title and have not gone 2 consecutive years without winning it since!
Master of all things "DuHawk"

FalconFan

Actually, Messiah joined the NCAA in 1981, and made final four appearances in '86 and '88.

cciwrabblerouser

augie - you must have had a friend or relative play on wheaton's 1997 team.  this thread isn't about 'what team was better' anyway - your conjecture is silly and off-topic.

what is being said is that wheaton has indeed taken a step back - nothing more and nothing less.  the only other thing that is being discussed is wheaton's current position in division iii soccer NOW compared to others.  the concensus is that north park and wheaton are comparable (probably something that every thunder fan would call blamphemous), that loras is a step ahead of wheaton in the midwest, and the given, that messiah is the best right now.

augie77

Rouser--The only reason for bringing up 1997 was to make a factual correction regarding Wheaton having won its "one and only" championship in 1994.  Agreed, that has no bearing on today.

I don't have a strong beef with the other contentions other than that Wheaton appears to be set up for continued improvement--more so than North Park in the immediate future.  Arguably North Park could claim the upper hand over the past three years (certainly they did better in 2010 and 2011), but in my view they need to sustain that level for a few more years to be called Wheaton's equal in soccer.  I'll be quite surprised if Wheaton's young team doesn't have the upper hand for the next three years based on current personnel.