Pool C

Started by Pat Coleman, January 20, 2006, 02:35:54 PM

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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


Yeah its the age old debate, but the teams aren't selected based on national comparisons.  The only thing the committee takes into account regarding opponents is the QOWI number.

If Gordon college doesn't win the CCC, at most they will have 4 in-region losses and a pretty good QOWI; I think they have a very good shot to get in regardless, as long as they make the tourney final.

The CCIW teams really can't complain too much.  It's the same argument that occurs in the Big 12 and the Big East every year.  Sure, the 8th and 9th teams in those conferences could probably win titles in a lot of smaller conferences, but its the price they pay for competing with the big boys.  Would Nebraska even get the basketball recruits they do without being in the Big 12?  Would Elmhurst or Carthage or whoever have the quality of teams they do if they were in the CCC?  It's a catch 22. 

Do I think the way they select teams is bad?  Not necessarily, but it could be a lot better.  Do I feel sorry for a 4th place team in a big conference that doesn't get in? No, not at all.  However there will probably be some 2nd place teams in a lot of conferences who do get robbed.  That's where the problems in the system arise.  It's human judgement and thus human error is inevitable; we'd be complaining about a computer ranking system the same way.

The only truly fair solution is following JeffP's idea and just throwing every single team into a giant 400 team tournament.  It would only take an extra three games.  If they stopped doing conference tournaments it would even work out on the calendar.  But I'm guessing, even then people would still complain.
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TheFence

The lessor conferences in D1 like the American East get 1 team in and 1 team only.  for example if Vermont lost in the American East Conference Tourney last year talk was they would have been left out as they got beat in the Bracket Buster Saturday game a month earlier againt Neveda. 

So yes Maybe some Mid Major conferences get an extra bid here and there in the event of a conference tourney upset but the bottom conferences do not.

This should be the case in D3 as well.  I'm not and advocate for the 4th place team in the CCIW getting in, but if the second place or even third depending on the year gets snubbed because Roger Williams upset Gordon in the CCC tourney final I think I'd have a problem with that.  Not that anyone cares what I think.

Following D3 Hoops nationally while living in New England, I know that there are at least 3 conferences in NE that should get 1 team in and 1 team only.  In fact they should be happy to that 1 team.  My guess is there are a few more around the country as well. I don't mean to belittle these athletes or conferences at all because I truly applaud their participation, but we are looking to find a National Chanmpion.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: TheFence on February 03, 2006, 03:27:49 PM
I know that there are at least 3 conferences in NE that should get 1 team in and 1 team only.  In fact they should be happy to that 1 team.

That may have been the case for a long time, but I have to defend the CCC here.   They have come into their own recently.  Say all you want about top-to-bottom comparisons and all that, but the best team in the CCC the last three years have been as good if not better than the best team in the LEC.  I'm tired of having our conference lumped in with the NAC and the GNAC because there are three bottom feeders who can't win any games.  That's rediculous.  It's hard to use one game comparisons (Gordon travelling to Georgia over Christmas to play Emory, who by the way, isn't a bad team).  I mean WPI barely beat Endicott and EC may well be the third best team in the CCC.  We have a tournament chosen on a national basis by regional criteria, so we have to live with it.  If you perform in your region, you get rewarded.

Honestly, outside of Bates and Amherst, I'm not sure there are any teams in NE that are better than Elmhurst or whoever finishes #4 in the CCIW.  The fact is that this is how the tournament works.  I've said it over and over again, if they want a true
Quote from: TheFence on February 03, 2006, 03:27:49 PM
National Chanmpion.
then they should seed the tournament evenly and not let the NE, E and MA regions off easy.
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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


By the way fence, I forgot the MASCAC and if you were referring to them as the third conference that's lucky to get one, I'll gladly apologize and eat some crow...raw.

I just get a little sensitive with all the CCC bashing I get around New England.  I tell you, we need to adopt the slogan: "We're not bad anymore."
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@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

TheFence

I guess I hit a nerve. 

I'm in New England now to but my D3hoops ties are to the Great Lakes Region and the UAA.  I say that to let you know I have an objective opinion regarding New England D3 Vs. New England D3.  Having said that I agree the top of the CCC is way better than the GNAC and NAC at this point in time.  Also The Top teams in the CCC are on par with all the other New England schools except the NESCAC schools as you point out. The Top CCC teams are good solid teams.  Perfect example is the Endicott/WPI game this year.  I was there and WPI was not any better than EC on that particular night.

So there's some Postive CCC feedback for you.  Now for the negative.  They still shouldn't get 2 teams in no matter what.  The only New Enlgland confernece that should get 2 teams in this year is the NESCAC unless WPI gets upset in the conference tourney, which will happen. (Watch Springfield College). The CCC, GNAC, NAC, MASCAS, Little East, don't deserve two no matter what happens.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


I think in a perfect world you are exactly right.  In fact I don't think the NEWMAC should get two teams in, even if WPI is upset.  The problem I have is we live in a crappy NCAA system, so it does us no good, especially on the Pool C board to speculate about who is better than who.  We need to figure out who has the best chance of getting in.

Even though they wouldn't be among the best 18 non winners, Gordon will probably get in unless they totally melt down.  The same is true of WPI, if they lose.

I think its generally accepted that the MW/GL is better than the NE/MA, but seeing as how the system is as it is, I feel its counterproductive to rail against the system on this board at this time.  Once the C's are announced, then it becomes expected from everyone.
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Ralph Turner

We have all of this heat and very little light in the week before the first regional rankings.

And, all of the complaining is about the extra money that the D1 basketball contract has brought to the table so we could expand from 7 to 18 Pool C bids.

The College Presidents have opted for a compromise between quality and accessibility.  Every D3 school knows exactly what they need to do get a playoff bid.

The College Presidents have determined that they want their Student-athletes going to class instead of riding a bus 8 states away...thus a Regional orientation.

The College Presidents tabled an amendment at the January 2006 convention to add Conference Strength of Schedule.  Perhaps the study committee will re-evaluate this after a little experience with the expanded Pools.

We can all moan about how we got disfavorably considered by the selection committee, but let's start looking at some objective criteria.

Fortunately, Pat has listed Regional standings at the top of the Region pages.

Let's start by looking at the In-Region records of the "top 18 Pool C types", realizing that there are 3 more weeks and post-season tourneys to knock off contenders.

Ralph Turner

#37
Northeast Region  (Each conference's percentage leader is stricken as a putative Pool A.  Additional losses by these teams would push them farther down the list.)

Worcester Polytech (NEWMAC) 17 1 .944  18 1 .947 
Amherst (NESCAC) 16 1 .941  17 2 .895 
Bates (NESCAC) 15 2 .882  19 2 .905 
Gordon (CCC-N) 15 2 .882  16 3 .842 
Trinity (Conn.) (NESCAC) 12 2 .857  15 3 .833 
Tufts (NESCAC) 15 3 .833  16 4 .800                   3 teams > .799 (all NESCAC)


Norwich (GNAC) 13 3 .813  13 5 .722  
Williams (NESCAC) 14 4 .778  16 4 .800 
Elms (NAC) 11 4 .733  13 6 .684  
Coast Guard (NEWMAC) 13 5 .722  14 5 .737 
Salem State (MASCAC) 13 5 .722  13 6 .684 
Keene State (LEC) 12 5 .706  14 5 .737 
Emmanuel (GNAC) 12 5 .706  13 6 .684                             6 teams > .699

Ralph Turner

#38
East Region--I am stopping at an In-region percentage of .700.

Cortland State (SUNYAC) 16 1 .941  17 2 .895  
St. John Fisher (E8) 13 1 .929  15 3 .833  
New York University (UAA) 15 2 .882  16 2 .889
Utica (E8) 13 3 .813  14 3 .824                                  1 team > .799


Hamilton (LL) 11 3 .786  15 3 .833 
Oswego State (SUNYAC) 13 4 .765  15 4 .789           2 teams > .699

NYU has the best in-region record in the UAA.


Ralph Turner

#39
Mid-Atlantic Region

York (Pa.) (CAC) 15 2 .882  17 2 .895 
Widener (MACC) 15 3 .833  16 3 .842  
Alvernia (PnAC) 14 3 .824  16 4 .800  
Johns Hopkins (CC) 13 3 .813  15 4 .789            0 Teams > .799


Baptist Bible (NEAC) 11 3 .786  13 4 .765     Pool B team.
Ursinus (CC) 14 4 .778  15 5 .750 
Catholic (CAC) 12 4 .750  14 5 .737 
Lincoln (IND) 11 4 .733  19 4 .826  Pool B team
Villa Julie (NEAC) 11 4 .733  12 7 .632  Pool B team 
Wilkes (MACF) 10 4 .714  11 6 .647 
Eastern (PnAC) 12 5 .706  15 6 .714 
Messiah (MACC) 12 5 .706  13 7 .650            4 non-Pool B teams > .699

Ralph Turner

#40
Atlantic Region

Baruch (CUNYAC) 17 1 .944  19 3 .864      0 teams > .799


Mount St. Mary (SKY) 13 4 .765  17 4 .810 
Rutgers-Newark (NJAC) 14 5 .737  15 5 .750 
SUNY-Farmingdale (SKY) 11 4 .733  14 4 .778
William Paterson (NJAC) 13 5 .722  14 6 .700  2 teams > .699


Ralph Turner

#41
South Region

Mississippi College (ASC-E) 16 1 .941  18 1 .947  
Virginia Wesleyan (ODAC) 17 3 .850  18 3 .857 
Trinity (Texas) (SCAC) 10 2 .833  14 5 .737 
Howard Payne (ASC-W) 14 3 .824  15 3 .833 *** 
Southwestern (SCAC) 12 3 .800  16 4 .800                  2 teams > .799


Fisk (GSAC) 8 2 .800  13 7 .650  Pool B team
Averett (USAC) 11 3 .786  15 5 .750  
Randolph-Macon (ODAC) 14 4 .778  17 4 .810 
Christopher Newport (USAC) 6 2 .750  15 5 .750 
Maryville (Tenn.) (GSAC) 13 5 .722  17 5 .773  Pool B team
McMurry (ASC-W) 12 5 .706  13 7 .650 
Mary Hardin-Baylor (ASC-W) 12 5 .706  12 7 .632  6 non-Pool B teams > .699

***The ASC bid is determined by the winner of the 8-team post season tourney.  The men's tourney will be hosted by the winner in the ASC-West.

Ralph Turner

#42
Great Lakes Region

Wooster (NCAC) 15 1 .938  19 1 .950 
Wittenberg (NCAC) 14 1 .933  19 1 .950
Hope (MIAA) 11 1 .917  19 1 .950 
Baldwin-Wallace (OAC) 16 2 .889  18 2 .900 
Albion (MIAA) 8 1 .889  16 3 .842
Lake Erie (AMCC) 12 2 .857  14 4 .778 
Calvin (MIAA) 6 1 .857  15 5 .750 
Carnegie Mellon (UAA) 11 2 .846  15 3 .833 
Penn State-Behrend (AMCC) 12 3 .800  15 4 .789   5 teams > .799


Bethany (PrAC) 14 4 .778  17 4 .810  Pool B team
Ohio Northern (OAC) 11 4 .733  15 4 .789 
Ohio Wesleyan (NCAC) 12 5 .706  13 7 .650 
Wilmington (OAC) 14 6 .700  14 6 .700        8 teams > .699

Ralph Turner

#43
Midwest Region

Augustana (CCIW) 17 0 1.000  19 1 .950 
Lawrence (MWC) 15 0 1.000  17 0 1.000  
Carroll (MWC) 14 2 .875  16 2 .889
Transylvania (HCAC) 16 3 .842  17 3 .850                1 team > .799


Illinois Wesleyan (CCIW) 11 3 .786  16 3 .842 
Lakeland (LMC) 14 4 .778  18 5 .783  
Milwaukee Engineering (LMC) 13 4 .765  16 6 .727 
Washington U. (UAA) 9 3 .750  13 5 .722 
Franklin (HCAC) 12 5 .706  14 6 .700               5 teams > .699

Ralph Turner

#44
West Region

Occidental (SCIAC) 9 0 1.000  16 1 .941 
Willamette (NWC) 12 1 .923  13 5 .722 
Puget Sound (NWC) 11 1 .917  16 3 .842 
Wartburg (IIAC) 15 2 .882  17 3 .850 
Nebraska Wesleyan (IND) 5 1 .833  8 11 .421 Pool B team
UW-Stout (WIAC) 13 3 .813  16 4 .800 
UW-La Crosse (WIAC) 16 4 .800  17 4 .810 
Pomona-Pitzer (SCIAC) 8 2 .800  11 6 .647   3 teams > .799


St. Thomas (MIAC) 14 4 .778  16 4 .800 
Carleton (MIAC) 12 4 .750  15 5 .750 
Coe (IIAC) 10 4 .714  15 4 .789                        6 teams > .699