MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

Started by Oxy'03SalemPavers, March 10, 2005, 12:17:44 PM

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castle

scanidihoovian,

I wish I could be there for that one...definetly make a couple before the end of the season.  You might have "use the force" to take down the Warriors.  Good luck!
"Dive for loose balls"

digs

I have a theory (that I'm sure all of you and Greg Sagar will find holes in)... 

Most of the top D3 programs have a roster made up mainly of in-state (or neighboring state) players.  There are exceptions (Williams, etc.), but even at schools that have a national student body, the team's roster has a strong regional flavor (Lawrence, Wooster). 

In thinking about this I thought of a couple of problems for SCIAC schools.  1.  Even though many of these schools have a national student body it seems that the top kids going to D3 schools have a tendancy to stay local.  2.  When I lived in SoCal I do not remember HS basketball being a big thing.  I didn't go watch any games, but it seemed that volleyball, football, baseball, soccer and even track were a bigger deal.  I doubt many people from Illinois, Indiana, etc. would say there was a bigger HS sport than basketball--maybe football, but track? get real.   I am concluding that the tallent level in SoCal is not as deep as in the midwest and I assume, the east.  This means that the coaches in the SCIAC may have less D3 level kids in their most likely recruiting base.  This leads to less talent to go around and ultimately less talent on the court.

We all know that a good portion of how good a coach is (at least in number of wins and national success) relys on the ability of the athletes he has to coach.  Thus I am giving a huge out to all of the SCIAC teams and coaches and saying that if some of the coaches that are criticized on this site were to move to a different part of the country they might have completely different fortunes.

Ok this is just a theory and I realize that there are many arguements against it, but I thought I'd throw it out for everyone to ponder.  Thoughts?

samiam

QuoteThe coaching staff at Oxy is top notch.

Everyone should be allowed one delusion in life, Whiner. If you want the above statement to be your delusion, so be it.

If you had the opportunity to go to college, I would suggest you go back and take that course in logic you must have missed. It might help you out in both life and here on the board.

If you already took such a class, go back and demand that they refund your tuition. You were not well served.

Case in point: I don't think Newhall's a good coach. The only scenario you can think of is that I'm a frustrated ex-player. Good lord, please don't tell me you do any work that requires high-level thinking.

The world is full of small people who think in binary terms: not this, must be that. Well, Binary Man, enjoy your limitations. But be prepared to be called out on your narrow, ignorant diatribes.

Again, it goes to show how petty the SCIAC is if one good season out of 18 demands I give respect to someone who takes decent players and underachives. Maybe that's the way you like coaches in Southern California. The rest of us demand a little more from our AAU and high school coaches, let alone someone who is supposed to be running a college program.

Getting back to your mindset--and I don't have finger puppets to explain it to you, so maybe you can understand if I speak in your either/or world view: Since you support Newhall, you must be one of his current players who got lots of playing time. Ergo, you think you got better under him and he taught you well. Gee, I must be right. I used Whiner's logic.

Get out of SCIAC once in while. Heck, come out east and we'll show you some eighth grade AAU teams that can beat anybody the SCIAC wants to send out.

Gregory Sager

It's hard to prove your theory empirically, Digs -- there's a million other factors such as demographics, institutional support, etc., that need to be taken into consideration as well -- but there may actually be some truth to it. I've said in this room more than once that SoCal natives often have a difficult time understanding just how close basketball comes to being a religion in the midwest. It's not just the Hoosiers myth, either, although the basketball-crazed milieu in small towns that was at the heart of that movie is still very much a part of the landscape. In urban areas, the passion for hoops is just as strong, particularly in black communities. In suburban areas it's lessened only by comparison, not by degree.

It's this passionate devotion to the game that is at the heart of the midwest's dominance in D3 basketball. I grew up in the northeast, and I can tell you unequivocally that the devotion to the game is not as strong there as it is in the heartland.

If the resources are there, I don't think that SCIAC coaches would be hurt by attempting to recruit midwestern kids as well as the local ones they already pursue. The huge (and often decisive) advantage that SoCal schools have over their counterpart institutions up here in the tall corn is weather. Right now we're under about a foot of snow here in Chicago, and across the lake in MIAA country they're already digging themselves out of about three or so feet of the white stuff. On the other hand, I'm willing to bet that I could walk across the Whittier or Cal Lutheran campuses in a t-shirt and a pair of shorts right now. In fact, I just checked www.weather.com and discovered that it's 71 degrees and sunny in Los Angeles. Don't think for a moment that every 17-year-old kid in Wisconsin or Indiana or Iowa whose mother has ordered him outside to shovel the driveway isn't painfully aware of this sort of thing.

If I was a good high-school ballplayer in the midwest who had a yen to go away to school rather than go someplace local, I'd certainly give a thought to going someplace warm.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

samiam

Hey digs:

I like your thoughts. I think they might hold some validity. However, Los Angeles basketball--including AAU, summer leagues, and high school--has been growing in popularity for years. I've noticed this as a former resident and as a basketball fan away from the state for a years. I've watched some of these kids kick butt in national tourneys (these kids usually wind up in JCs or DI though).

If most people stay local (and I don't know that they do), the population base for SCIAC to draw from is huge. What is the LA area up now 9 - 10 million people? There are more colleges and universities in SoCal, so that would have to be taken into consideration too.

It could be that small towns have a higher percentage of kids who are more gifted and who stay locally, but that would have to be a whopping differential to be true.

All in all, like most things: I don't know. But it's a interesting theory. Thanks for the post.

Sabretooth Tiger

#200
So Samiam


If you're back east, how do you have any personal knowledge about Newall, the Oxy program or the SCIAC other that what you read on the boards?  You seem awfully embittered toward Newhall for someone who has no first hand experience . . . or am I being binary? :D

Sabretooth Tiger

And . . . as I posted on the football boards . . . Oxy loses a lot of its recruits to the UC system based on costs . . . good athletes who could contribute at D3 schools but decide to go to a big public university to save the ducats and who play intramurals rather than incur the cost of a residential small liberal arts college experience.

samiam

QuoteYou seem awfully embittered toward Newhall for someone who has no first hand experience . . . or am I being binary?

Not binary in the least. I don't have anything against Newhall. Someone posted something about the kids not being able to do something or pull out a win or something. I think I just responded that the frontcourt was fine; they just needed some adjustments and more coaching. It was a specific Oxy statement because coaches seem to get a free pass around here.

I'm not a fan of Oxy or anyone in the SCIAC. I love basketball though and have roots in SoCal. So I keep an eye on lots of schools.

If you like, I'd be happy to share my comments about Smith or Dow. Geez, you SCIAC guys really have the stereotypical short man's complex.

Again, apologies for ruffling feathers. I thought I was just stating something that was obvious . . . which is about all I'm capable of stating. I'm not that smart. And if I know someone's not a great coach, you can be sure most everyone else already knows it.

I'll go back to lurking now. Enjoy the season. I hope it goes well for all the schools and fans.

WestCoastWhiner

SamIAmAJVPlayerWhoWasBetterThanThe3GuysatMyPositionThatNewhallPlayedAheadofMe,

Lots of folks like you carry hefty loads on their backs for years about missed opportunities.  Life ain't about blame bro.  Leaders learn how to accept personal responsibility.  There was a reason you never started; you weren't as good as the guys ahead of you.  And we can see from your posts that mentally you are soft.  It wasn't the coaches fault that you weren't as good as the other guys.  

I could go into detail about several guys in any given year who the staff at Oxy made better.  I'd rather not, however, because nobody on the board here really cares.  The people on this thread are fairly knowledgeable and don't deal with JV personnel issues.    

If you want to hate on Newhall, get a ticket, fly back, and tell the coaches to let you get a run against the JV team.  I'll make sure it is video-taped then I'll put it on a blog where folks here can download it and see the truth for themselves.  



"I've won at every level, except grade school, junior high, high school and college."

David Collinge

The geographic scope of the basketball team and that of the student body in general are unrelated concepts, at least among the decent hoops programs.  The latter is only relevant to the former if students "go out" for basketball, which really isn't the case at any school I have any knowledge of.  The admissions department, with their relatively vast web of alumni and other contacts, recruit nationally or even internationally.  The basketball coaches tend to recruit close to home, places where the assistant in charge of recruiting can get to for a Friday night game.  Those kids who do come from far away to play for a program like Wooster or Lawrence tend to recruit themselves; that is, the take the initiative to contact the coach, send game films, etc.  Or at least that is my impression.

I certainly think there must be plenty of talent in the LA Basin to fill out the rosters of all the universities, colleges, and JUCOs around here.  SoCal high school basketball may not be the be-all end-all that it is in Indiana and (to a lesser extent) Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, etc. (football-first states), but I doubt that there's a significant talent gap (if there is any at all) between these states and the Golden State.

I realize that doesn't answer your question, and maybe even tends to support the SCIAC-coaches-are-suspect arguments of samiam (who, BTW, lost his only karma point for his smart-alecky post).  I reserve judgment on the coaching out here until I have seen some of it firsthand.

samiam

Wait a sec. I lost a karma point? Shoot. How many do I need before I get a free pizza?

samiam

Whiner, I can't respond to your latest post because I don't think they'll take credit on my karma account.

dj_hyphen

Quote from: digs on December 09, 2005, 05:05:14 PM
Thoughts?

if you're trying to say that the high school basketball talent pool in southern california is weak, i really don't know what to tell you.  that's absurd man

WestCoastWhiner

Schools like Pomona, Claremont & Oxy pull most of their student bodies nationally anyway so even if So Cal had a small pool of talent (which it definitely doesn't - note that when Carthage won the national championship their stud was from the OC), then they still should be able to pull some kids from elsewhere.  Pomona always has - as has Claremont.  Not really Oxy or anyone else - although Redlands used to have good success pulling out of AZ.  I think it was DJ who correctly pointed out a few years ago, however, that in So Cal the SCIAC schools have many other regional competitors (lots of NAIA & DII teams, in addition to mid-tier DI programs).   

But at the end of the day I think it comes down to closing skills, effort, creativity & dollars.  Pomona should really always have the best talent because it is the best school.  If they are able to get someone in, the close is less difficult for them because the school is so great.  For every 5 targeted guys that Kats is able to get in to Pomona, I would be surprised if he can't get commits from a majority of them.  The same goes to a slightly lesser degree with Claremont.  Everyone else has a tough, tough sell.  Big $ for degrees at lower ranked schools. 

But I'll be that folks from other regions will point to similar issues elsewhere.  It is the classic liberal arts issue.  Amherst, Williams, Wooster, Puget Sound - all have nonetheless found ways to consistently bring in plenty of horses.         

 
"I've won at every level, except grade school, junior high, high school and college."

David Collinge

Quote from: WestCoastWhiner on December 09, 2005, 07:38:53 PMnote that when Carthage won the national championship their stud was from the OC) 

???

I don't think that's ever happened, at least not in D3.  I'm not sure who you are thinking of.