MBB: Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

Started by Oxy'03SalemPavers, March 10, 2005, 12:17:44 PM

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mr_rayburn

Ok Bob. My point was to say that without beating a solid east coast team, they wouldnt have gotten the resepect that they have and that they deserve. I wasn't knocking them at all, but there have been other very good teams, how about the 2003 Oxy team that went 14-0, that have not risen as quickly or as high as this year's team.  In fact, I'm gonna go ahead and say that 2003's undefeated team would beat this years team.

OxyFan21

Quote from: mr_rayburn on January 31, 2006, 08:35:18 PM
Ok Bob. My point was to say that without beating a solid east coast team, they wouldnt have gotten the resepect that they have and that they deserve. I wasn't knocking them at all, but there have been other very good teams, how about the 2003 Oxy team that went 14-0, that have not risen as quickly or as high as this year's team.  In fact, I'm gonna go ahead and say that 2003's undefeated team would beat this years team.

I think you may be right.  Finn and Song were amazing.  We'll see how this team stacks up in a few more weeks.

David Collinge

Quote from: mr_rayburn on January 31, 2006, 06:42:35 PM
Is Oxy's #12 national ranking the highest EVER for a SCIAC team? My SCIAC history is not as strong as it is for some of you. 

The short answer is 'YES.'
The D3hoops.com poll has been in existence since the beginning of the 1999-00 season.  In that time, Occidental is the only SCIAC team to be ranked.  The Finn-Song ("I can't seem to forget you/Your Finn-Song stays on my mind" ;D) team of 2002-03 was #14 in the final poll of that season.  The following year, the Tigers reached the bottom of the poll twice in midseason.  This year's Oxy squad has now been ranked in four consecutive polls, and the current ranking of #12 is the high-water mark, both for Oxy and for any California-based D3 team.  Cal Lu, CMS, P-P, and Redlands have received votes (as have Chapman and, once upon a time, UCSD), but none have as yet cracked the top 25.

sciacguru

Quote from: mr_rayburn on January 31, 2006, 06:42:35 PM
Is Oxy's #12 national ranking the highest EVER for a SCIAC team? My SCIAC history is not as strong as it is for some of you. 

I believe that CLU's team in 94 or 93 was ranked in the top 10.....and maybe even #1 with a 19 game win streak.

scandihoovian

Quote from: mr_rayburn on January 31, 2006, 08:35:18 PM
Ok Bob. My point was to say that without beating a solid east coast team, they wouldnt have gotten the resepect that they have and that they deserve. I wasn't knocking them at all, but there have been other very good teams, how about the 2003 Oxy team that went 14-0, that have not risen as quickly or as high as this year's team.  In fact, I'm gonna go ahead and say that 2003's undefeated team would beat this years team.

I agree, rayburn.  I think a lot of voters in other regions remain sceptical about SCIAC schools unless they've beaten a traditional power from outside the west coast.  I think it's equally fair to say that Oxy's football win over Concordia in 2004 did much to boost their ranking in 2005.  Not saying the rankings were undeserved, just throwing out a little support for rayburn's "half baked scheme...

I haven't seen this year's Oxy team yet, but they don't seem as dominant as the 2003 version.

David:  Your killing me softly with finn-song ;)

Howlinwolf

2003 Tigers line-up was stronger, I believe, but perhaps not quite as deep as the current squad. For those with good memories, you'll remember that squad didn't necessarily dominate in individual SCIAC games, but they had the gumption to run through the conference undefeated. There were a scad of close games. The win at Redlands was one of the most improbable ever - down by 30, and leading only once, at the game's end.
The difference between '03 and '05 is the dimunition in the quality of the conference. It isn't as strong, top to bottom, as it was three seasons ago.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: mr_rayburn on January 31, 2006, 08:35:18 PM
Ok Bob. My point was to say that without beating a solid east coast team, they wouldnt have gotten the resepect that they have and that they deserve.

If they had beaten a Top 10 team, regardless of where said school was based, it would have done the same.

What you guys probably don't realize is that there is very little support for Amherst as a Top 5 team. There were multiple voters with Amherst in the teens. If this were two years ago and Amherst had gotten off to that start, they'd probably have been No. 2, getting five or six first-place votes. But Top 5 status notwithstanding, most were not sold on Amherst. That's why they dropped so many slots despite losing a tight game on the floor of a quality opponent 3,000 miles away.

Occidental, to that time, had beaten whom exactly? La Sierra twice, Pacific Union twice. Lost to Azusa Pacific, but that only proved they were not as good as APU (no surprise there).

Beating Whitworth alone would have gotten Occidental on the road to the Top 25.  Beating Amherst made it happen, but so would have beating Puget Sound, or even Trinity (Texas).
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OxyFan21

Since I don't think Oxy will be playing Trinity (TX) or UPS any time soon, we'll have to take what we can get in terms of our home wins against a slightly overrrated (at that time) Amherst and Whitworth.

All is moot if Oxy wins out in Round 2 of SCIAC play, which I think they are definitely capable of.  Road games at CMS and PP back to back towards the end of the season will have a great deal of importance as to who represents our league.  Perhaps PP, CMS and Cal Lu will beat up on eachother before that time.

X marks the spot on our backs.

WestCoastWhiner

Folks are jumping the gun here.  Oxy hasn't won ANYTHING yet.  We are all grateful for the well-deserved (from the Left Coast at least) national recognition.  I'm glad the Oxy fans are jumping on the board.  But keep in mind that Claremont & Pomona both are eagerly awaiting rematches at their place.  In the latter look for 25 points from Knowles &  19 from Lloyd.  PP will get CMS back for the whipping across the street and then be in a position to beat Oxy to possibly force a playoff.  That assumes Oxy can beat all of the Big 3 on the road.  History would seem to argue that they won't be even to win any of them, let alone all 3.  And that my friends, would mean what I have been saying all along, look for Kats to hang another banner.

Oxy did what it was supposed to: beat Redlands on the road, beat Whittier, beat LV, then hold down the home court against the Big 3.   Now comes their opportunity to show that they actually deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the '03 Oxy squad.  But anyone at the PP or CMS games will tell you that they need to put in some work before that happens.  I'm on the Betty bandwagon and he can get them there.  But he'll have to do it by getting 12 boards, 5 assists, 3 blocked shots & 12 points, not 25 points.  Those teams are both too afraid & smart to play him straight up.  Scoring 25 against double teams will play right into their hands. 

Sometimes its tough to be in the driver's seat. 



 

"I've won at every level, except grade school, junior high, high school and college."

scandihoovian

You crack me up, Bob.  Either you've got me pegged as a straight up Oxy hater (which I'm not - but I could be in denial) or you just have an excess of anti-Cal Lu venom you need to get out of your system and I provide you the opportunities to do so...

You're right - I'll have a better idea regarding the quality of this year's Oxy team after they come to Thousand Oaks.  But for now I'll stick to my opinion that a team that holds on for two close wins at home against CMS and PP is not quite as strong as the Oxy team I recall from 2003 that handled everybody in the conference (both home and away), including a CLU team that was much stronger and more experienced than this year's version.  I may well be wrong, I'd love it if this year's Oxy team proved to be better than the 2003 team and went deeper into the post season.  I just think it's still open for debate.

sciacguru

Wow OxyBob......
Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed....or didnt get any last night....RELAX!!!!!!!!!!!

Scandi is one of the most supportive SCIAC posters, who just so happens to have ties to CLU, and he certainly doesnt ridicule any SCIAC team like you have done.

Heaven forbid, if he were to say that he doesnt think this year's team is as talented as a team that went to the Elite 8.  If you are to bash someone bash the voters who still have Amherst ranked higher than the tigers.

WestCoastWhiner

OxyBob just blew a fuse.  He'll be good.  Hoovian & OxyB are SCIAC fans at the end of the day. 

But let me bring you folks down to earth.  Having watched my boys at Hope play this year & Oxy/PP, there is still a big talent gap between the SCIAC & the elite in DIII.  Look at the background of most of the players at Hope and even the hated Calvin.  These schools are going after all-state & all region players.  I like some of the talent in the SCIAC but top to bottom there really isn't much of a comparison.  Take a look at Hope's gym and tell me where you would go if you got a letter from a SCIAC school.  And that doesn't even touch W S-P, who even in a down year may be able to field a team with their 10-15 folks who could compete at the top of the SCIAC. 

From what I can tell Alexander, Zach Miller from CLU, Slade from PP and Gipson from WC are the 4 best freshmen in SCIAC.  Nothing against them, but in other leagues these guys would either not get minutes or be on JV.  I loved what Alexander &  McBride did to the over-hyped guard at Amherst and they definitely can D, dribble & pass, but to be Salem-type players they need a year or two of making 100 3s a day.   

I'm not sure how the SCIAC can bridge the gap.  I think that it always has a handful of guys who would do well in even the best DIII conferences.  But it isn't getting out of the cellar until the talent discrepancy is addressed.   

OxyB, this year's Oxy team has had a great year.  We are all fans.  But before you put them in the Song, Finn, Keheo-something camp, let's see what they can do on the road.  Those fools were straight ballers. 
"I've won at every level, except grade school, junior high, high school and college."

dj_hyphen

Quote from: scandihoovian on February 01, 2006, 03:05:22 PM
I'll stick to my opinion that a team that holds on for two close wins at home against CMS and PP is not quite as strong as the Oxy team I recall from 2003 that handled everybody in the conference (both home and away)

not that it really matters, but if i remember correctly, that undefeated Oxy team won those two PP games by a combined 3 points.  I might be off on that, but they were definitely very close games...so this year's team winning close ones vs. CMS and PP isn't really that much different than the path the '03 team took

David Collinge

I'm pretty sure Wooster has a 100% graduation rate, and they send a fair amount of their players to graduate school.  (The highest GPA in last year's graduating class belonged to our starting center, a math major, and the point guard is going to finish in the top half-dozen or so this year.)  And no Wooster player has ever gone to the NBA as anything other than a spectator.  And we have delusions of D3 grandeur. 

Bob, I think what you quote Coach Newhall as saying is true for a great many D3 programs, including many who compete for the national title.  Running an academics-first program is not an institutional barrier to success.

Mr. Ypsi

Well said, David.

I can't confirm that IWU has a 100% graduation rate, but I am sure it is awfully close to that if it isn't!  Likewise, we don't send players to the NBA (except Jack Sikma, before we joined d3!), though like Wooster, I'm sure, we HAVE had players continue bball careers in Europe or elsewhere.  But we send FAR more players to grad school than to any professional league.  (AND, of course, playing professionally does not rule out grad school (or law school, med school, etc.) after the career is over.)

But your point was that academic excellence and bball success are NOT mutually exclusive (especially at the d3 level), and in that you are absolutely correct.  Using high academic standards as an excuse for failure to compete athletially is a cop-out.  (Not that anyone was doing that directly, but several posts seemed to hint at it.)