BB: Pre-season All-American Teams

Started by Jim Dixon, January 17, 2008, 07:41:31 PM

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All-AmericanFan

 I forgot when the MLB hands out the Most Valuable player the guy has to be five tools like A-Rod was in Texas when he used to steal less than 10 bags a 162 game season and win the MVP... We are talking about the D3 player of the Year, you give me one coach from one of the teams on the regional ranking list who says he can find a player he would rather pitch around than Derek David. Oh so-and-so is hitting .500? You didn't even give a freaking name and we don't know who he is. I say Derek David you say 26 home runs. You know the guy. You know the guy cause he's the best player in D3. End of Story. Vote your guy for all-american cause that's the only award he's got a shot at.

TheGNAC

Yeah, not sure where the idea comes from that the Player of the Year needs to be a 5 tool talent. Pretty sure Mark McGwire didn't steal too many bags when he was collecting his hardware.

mideastfan2

traditionally the DIII POY is NOT a 5 tool player.  They are a player with exceptional stats...and David has exception al stats this season, which others do not.  .444, 26 HR's and 73 RBI's are incredible numbers for a DIII player, and like I said before, someone with those number usually wins the POY award (at least in the last 12 years that I've been around DIII baseball)....unless of course you're a utility player, then your pitching stats will come into play.

Or your Matt DeSalvo....the most dominating DIII pitcher (stat wise) to ever play.

atl7

Quote from: mideastfan2 on May 11, 2008, 06:51:43 PM
traditionally the DIII POY is NOT a 5 tool player.  They are a player with exceptional stats...and David has exception al stats this season, which others do not.  .444, 26 HR's and 73 RBI's are incredible numbers for a DIII player, and like I said before, someone with those number usually wins the POY award (at least in the last 12 years that I've been around DIII baseball)....unless of course you're a utility player, then your pitching stats will come into play.

Or your Matt DeSalvo....the most dominating DIII pitcher (stat wise) to ever play.

i highly doubt there are any "true" 5 tool players at this level...you have to remember its d-3 baseball 5 tool players are at Juco and D1....if you are really a 5 tool player you would not be at this level.....

but David is the greatest thing i have seen play at this level and will get at chance with MLB draft comin' up....


The U For Life

fouriscosmic,

I would love to see the numbers you expect the POTY award to have.  Regarding D. David if he doesnt win POTY then no one deserves it.  Your talking about someone who has hit 444 ave, 78 runs, 84 hits, 11 doubles, 26 home runs(which is 2nd or 3rd all time D3 history), 73 rbis, 173 tb, 915 slugging % and a 520 OB %.  Those numbers are ridiculous.  David has hit everyone whether it be the weaker teams or the tough teams.  Now about his 5 tools.  The first thing you questioned was his speed.  David actually leads his team in stolen bases with 7.  I know your thinking that isnt a lot, but if you have seen McMurry play then you would know that they are not the type of team that steals bases.  He actually leads the team in attempts with 8.  Also you said he didnt hit enough doubles for your liking.  Well last year he hit 24 doubles which is a school record.  David has managed to put together one of the greatest offensive seasons in the history of D3 baseball.  That is all i've got to say. 

All-AmericanFan

The game has changed since I last played but last I checked....

It was always hard to steal a base when you are hitting a home run.

Why do you steal when you have the all time conference career home run leader hitting behind you?

Those guys do not have to steal, they are in scoring position when they step into the box.

Ralph Turner

To give a more accurate picture of Derek David, he batted third ahead of second team pre-season All-American Brent Voorhees until Voorhees took a bad fall going for a foul ball  in the third Howard Payne game.

David played the very capable Babe Ruth to Voorhees' Lou Gehrig.  Here are Voorhees numbers, including 36 games before the injured shoulder.

Player                    AVG  GP-GS    AB    R    H    2B 3B HR  RBI   TB  SLG% BB HBP SO GDP OB% SF  SH   SB-ATT  PO  A   E   FLD%
B. Voorhees .357 38-37 157 39 56 14 0 10 52 100 .637 19  3  22  0 .431  2   0   0-0  171 8  4 .978

Why do you try to steal when this is the guy behind you?

mideastfan2

Quote from: The U For Life on May 11, 2008, 07:46:10 PM
David has managed to put together one of the greatest offensive seasons in the history of D3 baseball.  That is all i've got to say. 

great season........yes

should be POY for 2008.......yes

one of the greatest offensive seasons in the history of D3 baseball........quite possibly a top 10 season.

There have been players in the past that have put up ridiculous numbers.  Jorgenson from UW-Oshkosh, Coakley from Marietta, Cortez from Ponoma-Pitzer, Caravella from Ohio Wesleyan, and those are just off the top of my head.  There are plenty others.

fouriscosmic

If David has speed then I take back that he is lacking that tool, and I will not comment on his arm.  Still the .911 fielding % leaves something to be desired.  And he has struck out 34 times this season.

Ralph,
I would steal with those numbers behind David, Hopkins has 47 times this season (Youchak is followed by Pietroforte whose numbers are better than Vorhees and Pietroforte is followed by Emr whose numbers are better than Vorhees)  The reason I would steal with Pietro and Youch is because they are both very fast.  They are a combined 43-47 and each went their first 17 before getting thrown out.  That is what speed adds to your lineup.

All-AmericanFan,
David has not been in SP 79 times this season after his AB (singles, walks, HBP)  He has put himself into scoring position 7 times (assuming all his steals are of 2B.)  He gets himself into SP 8.8% of the time, add in his XBHits and he is in SP after 20% of his plate appearances.

Brian Youchak (there is your name for someone batting over .500)  Has not been in SP 53 times this season after his AB.  He has put himself into scoring position 20 times (same logic I know it is slightly off because Youchak has stolen thrid).  He gets himself into SP 37.7% percent of the time, add in his XBHits and he is in SP after 31.9% of his plate appearances.

The U for Life,

Here are numbers that I would expect to see from the POTY
    Player               AVG  GP-GS    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR RBI   TB   SLG% BB HBP  SO OB%  SB-ATT  FLD%
Brian Youchak....  .515   34-33   134  53  69  17   1   8   52   112  .836    8    2      8  .541   20-21   .980
If he had the same number of ABs as David
                           .515   46-46   189  75  97  24   1  11  73   158  .836   11   3     11 .541   28-30   .980

Now the final word, I don't think everyone read my first post on this topic.

Derek David is a great power hitter and deserves any award that he gets including Player of the Year.  But to say that he is the "Hands Down" Player of the Year is an insult to every other player in D-III who is having a phenominal year.  David's numbers are spectacular, but he has had the opportunity to make them spectacular, something that other players in the country have not had.  There are players out there who are 5-tool players who do not put up David's HR totals, but that should not mean that they can't be considered for POTY.  Looking beyond the basic numbers it is clear that team contribution goes well beyond OBS.

Ralph Turner

Quote from: fouriscosmic on May 12, 2008, 12:00:42 AM

Brian Youchak (there is your name for someone batting over .500)  Has not been in SP 53 times this season after his AB.  He has put himself into scoring position 20 times (same logic I know it is slightly off because Youchak has stolen thrid).  He gets himself into SP 37.7% percent of the time, add in his XBHits and he is in SP after 31.9% of his plate appearances.

The U for Life,

Here are numbers that I would expect to see from the POTY
    Player               AVG  GP-GS    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR RBI   TB   SLG% BB HBP  SO OB%  SB-ATT  FLD%
Brian Youchak....  .515   34-33   134  53  69  17   1   8   52   112  .836    8    2      8  .541   20-21   .980
If he had the same number of ABs as David
                           .515   46-46   189  75  97  24   1  11  73   158  .836   11   3     11 .541   28-30   .980

Now the final word, I don't think everyone read my first post on this topic.
...
:D :D :D

Well, here's a name to match your Brain Youchak...

McMurry's Steven Yurchick leads off for McMurry (when he hasn't been injured).



Player                 AVG  GP-GS    AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI   TB  SLG% BB HBP SO GDP OB%  SF  SH  SB-ATT   PO   A   E  FLD%

Derek David....    .444  46-46  189  78  84  11   0  26 73  173  .915  27   5    34   2    .520     2     0      7-8       41 102  14  .911
Steven Yurchick. .434  35-34 152  51  66  13   4   8   34 111  .730  16    5     8    0    .503     0     0      3-4       69  64     4   .971


Thanks for the discussion, cosmic.   :)

The U For Life

Cosmic, 

Youchaks numbers are very good, but I think its a little unfair to say that if he had this number of at bats this is what his numbers would be.  Yeah its fun and everything to say he would be on pace to do this, but it still would have to be done.  We all know baseball is a funny game and can be very unfair.  Dont want to take anything away from the kid at all those are exceptional numbers, all im saying is that you never know what would happen in his next 55 at bats.  He could just as well continue on that pace as he could go in a slump.  I also appreciate the discussion as well and it is good to hear about other great players around the country.   

Cutter

pretty sure youchak is only a soph as well...looks like he and the hop O will be tested early vs moreland...good luck jays in va

Billy 40

Quote from: fouriscosmic on May 12, 2008, 12:00:42 AM

Here are numbers that I would expect to see from the POTY
    Player               AVG  GP-GS    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR RBI   TB   SLG% BB HBP  SO OB%  SB-ATT  FLD%
Brian Youchak....  .515   34-33   134  53  69  17   1   8   52   112  .836    8    2      8  .541   20-21   .980

It sucks argueing with someone who is biased. Why would you pick the numbers quoted above, if they are not even as good as this guy:

Player                 AVG  GP-GS    AB   R   H  2B  3B  HR RBI   TB  SLG%  BB HBP  SO OB% SB-ATT  FLD%

Kolb, Brian.........  .527  36-35   146  45  77  19   2   6  52  118  .808  11   2  21   .559  25-25  .988

He's got your boy beat in every category except HR's,  Slugging, and K's. 

All-AmericanFan

Cosmic, your argument is flawed....

Derek David is not just in scoring position 20% of the time, he is scoring EVERYBODY including himself 14% of the time. Let's just project Derek David's numbers if he had a big league season..... Oh yeah in baseball you don't project numbers at the end of the season; they numbers are what they are!

Youchaks is stealing bases because 94% of the time he still has bases to steal. Even if he stole third on ten of his doubles, then stole home 10 times following that (accounting for his 20 stolen bases), that would put him as 8 real home runs, and for the sake of the argument, 10 more home runs, giving him 18. He now is left with 1 triple and 7 doubles...... still not matching David's 26, 0, 11. And I didn't even alter David's numbers, his speak for themselves.

fouriscosmic

Billy 40,

The fact that there are other players out there with comparable numbers to Youchak is exactly what I am talking about.  All of these players deserve to be mentioned, I did not search through all of D-III to find the best player, I simply looked at the line-up of the best hitting team in D-III (by team BA).  And for the record, Youchak is beating Kolb in HR, Slug, K and Runs.


All-American Fan,

Youchak does not have a base to steal 94% of the time, you can't steal if you are not on base.  Youchak has the opportunity to steal some base after 49.3% of his plate appearances.  David has the opportunity to steal after 40.7% of his plate appearances.

If you factor in strikeouts (stealing 1st) then Youchak has an opportunity after 54.9% of his PA and David after 56.1%.

Youchak can steal 2nd (into scoring position) after 29.7% of his PA.  David 35.7% of his PA.

I will not buy any argument that David is a comparable base-stealer to Youchak or Kolb or any other of the base-stealers around D-III.  Being said, his team has decided that he shouldn't be, and you can not hold that against David.


Everyone else,
I agree that projecting numbers is flawed, but when you are comparing 189 AB to 132 AB it is flawed to compare totals.  I also agree that the person who actually put up the big numbers has an edge on the person who is on pace to put up big numbers, and again I think David will be, and probably should be, the player of the year.  But to reiterate, calling him a hands down lock and not consider the seasons that players like Kolb and Youchak have had is shortsighted.


I was looking through McMurry's extended stats and it is remarkable to see that David's BA against right, against left, with RISP, bases empty, two outs, bases loaded, etc. are all eerily close to his season average.  Clearly he brings the same approach and focus to each at bat.