Directors Cup

Started by Ralph Turner, June 10, 2012, 05:10:04 PM

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Gregory Sager

Quote from: Ralph Turner on June 12, 2012, 10:34:02 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on June 12, 2012, 10:30:54 PM
I vote for Ralph's participation ratio.

Thanks Gregory.  (I wonder how IWU would fare with the PR.   ;) )

I don't care about IWU, but I know that a participation ratio would help out NPU a bit. Not that that enters into my reasoning. I just think it's the fairest and simplest way to make the Cup more equitable.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

NCF

1. compare the same sports, using participation rates for each gender. For example, the men's list might include: football, basketball, baseball, cross-country, indoor track, outdoor track, soccer, etc. 2. Determine the top nine sports for women. 3. Develop a scoring system (or use the one already in place). It just seems to make more sense to compare the same sports for all schools.
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
CCIW MEN'S OUTDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: 35
NATIONAL CHAMPIONS: INDOOR TRACK-'89,'10,'11,'12/OUTDOOR TRACK: '89,'94,'98,'00,'10,'11
2013 OAC post season pick-em tri-champion
2015 CCIW Pick-em co-champion

Pat Coleman

You don't want to cut down on the number of sports to count?
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

NCF

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 12, 2012, 11:20:17 PM
You don't want to cut down on the number of sports to count?
You could go top five  as long as you only compare the same sports for each gender across the board.
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
CCIW MEN'S OUTDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: 35
NATIONAL CHAMPIONS: INDOOR TRACK-'89,'10,'11,'12/OUTDOOR TRACK: '89,'94,'98,'00,'10,'11
2013 OAC post season pick-em tri-champion
2015 CCIW Pick-em co-champion

Pat Coleman

I don't know about that -- I'd like to have some flexibility for field hockey or ice hockey or lacrosse or sports that aren't quite national. Cut it down to seven per gender?
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Mr. Ypsi

I haven't thought this through for possible downsides, but how about kind of a Pool A/Pool C compromise: the 7? highest participation sports automatically are counted plus 2? additional 'at large' sports (whatever scores highest for a given school).  Combined with a PR for scoring, this reduces (though doesn't eliminate) the advantage of schools who can drop 6-8 'oops' teams over schools who simply can't afford to offer 16-18 sports per gender.

Bombers798891

I would rather see us include every sport, and just divide the schools into different groups based on the size of the athletic department. If we're adjusting point totals for participant ratio, why shouldn't we take into account every sport? That way, we get a clearer picture of each school's entire department, but still separate a school that offers 25-30 sports from one that offers 12

NCF

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on June 13, 2012, 01:29:18 PM
I haven't thought this through for possible downsides, but how about kind of a Pool A/Pool C compromise: the 7? highest participation sports automatically are counted plus 2? additional 'at large' sports (whatever scores highest for a given school).  Combined with a PR for scoring, this reduces (though doesn't eliminate) the advantage of schools who can drop 6-8 'oops' teams over schools who simply can't afford to offer 16-18 sports per gender.
That seems like a good compromise.
CCIW FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS '06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
CCIW  MEN"S INDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: TOTAL DOMINATION SINCE 2001.
CCIW MEN'S OUTDOOR TRACK CHAMPIONS: 35
NATIONAL CHAMPIONS: INDOOR TRACK-'89,'10,'11,'12/OUTDOOR TRACK: '89,'94,'98,'00,'10,'11
2013 OAC post season pick-em tri-champion
2015 CCIW Pick-em co-champion

frank uible

Now that the scoring methodology has been determined, who's going to keep score? It is not too late to declare a 2011-12 champ.

Ralph Turner

#39
The PR modulates much of the emphasis/impact from the minor sports.  Taking the "top 9" gives most teams excellent coverage. The sports that have less than 100 sports only get 25 or so point for a national champion. At that point, Williams first round losing women's soccer team would get 25 points after the PR was applied. The final four women's ice hockey team would 7 points under the PR system.  Before the "PR", Williams might have the Final Four women's Ice Hockey team getting 75 points and use that team as their 9th team in the calculations.

The PR will help with some of the "minor" sports like Lacrosse.  How many play lacrosse?  150 schools?  About 3/8ths of D-III.  Giving the Lacrosse winner 37 points as the 8th or 9th sport in fair IMHO.

Football has about 60% participation.  We cannot be accused of over-weighting that sport by the "anti-football" crowd.

The most common 4-5 sports are M/W Hoops, M/W soccer, M/W Cross Country, M/W baseball/softball and W volleyball, all greater than 85% of D-III competing. M/W Tennis is another popular sport.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Bombers798891 on June 13, 2012, 01:40:07 PM
I would rather see us include every sport, and just divide the schools into different groups based on the size of the athletic department. If we're adjusting point totals for participant ratio, why shouldn't we take into account every sport? That way, we get a clearer picture of each school's entire department, but still separate a school that offers 25-30 sports from one that offers 12

We'd be subdividing Division III ...
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 13, 2012, 08:03:19 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on June 13, 2012, 01:40:07 PM
I would rather see us include every sport, and just divide the schools into different groups based on the size of the athletic department. If we're adjusting point totals for participant ratio, why shouldn't we take into account every sport? That way, we get a clearer picture of each school's entire department, but still separate a school that offers 25-30 sports from one that offers 12

We'd be subdividing Division III ...

Exactly; and we've been down that road before. :P

I'll try to take up Frank U's challenge if someone can tell me the total number of d3 schools (and the single-gender schools, since they would have effectively zero chance at an overall title, but I'll also divide it by gender).  Will I find all the necessary info on the NCAA site (number of participating schools; entries into the tourney; final finishes)?

Unlike Frank U, I'm not certain we have 'settled' on a procedure, but I'll do it by my post (or something close to that).  (And if football turns out to be a 'required' sport for the men's total, it would be good to 'stick it' to the NESCAC teams!  Their choice of non-participation in d3 football obviously works well for the Directors' Cup; we'll see how it affects the 'Ypsi Cup'! 8-))

Ralph Turner

#42
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on June 13, 2012, 08:41:19 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 13, 2012, 08:03:19 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on June 13, 2012, 01:40:07 PM
I would rather see us include every sport, and just divide the schools into different groups based on the size of the athletic department. If we're adjusting point totals for participant ratio, why shouldn't we take into account every sport? That way, we get a clearer picture of each school's entire department, but still separate a school that offers 25-30 sports from one that offers 12

We'd be subdividing Division III ...

Exactly; and we've been down that road before. :P

I'll try to take up Frank U's challenge if someone can tell me the total number of d3 schools (and the single-gender schools, since they would have effectively zero chance at an overall title, but I'll also divide it by gender).  Will I find all the necessary info on the NCAA site (number of participating schools; entries into the tourney; final finishes)?

Unlike Frank U, I'm not certain we have 'settled' on a procedure, but I'll do it by my post (or something close to that).  (And if football turns out to be a 'required' sport for the men's total, it would be good to 'stick it' to the NESCAC teams!  Their choice of non-participation in d3 football obviously works well for the Directors' Cup; we'll see how it affects the 'Ypsi Cup'! 8-))
I have not been able to  navigate the ncaa.org website since they revised it about 2 years ago.  But this is what I have found so far.  436 active members as of 03/05/2012


Men Championship Sports (14)

    Baseball, Basketball, Cross Country, Football, Golf, Ice Hockey, Lacrosse, Soccer, Swimming and Diving, Tennis, Indoor Track and Field, Outdoor Track and Field, Volleyball*, Wrestling

Women Championship Sports (14)

    Basketball, Cross Country, Field Hockey, Golf, Ice Hockey, Lacrosse, Rowing, Soccer, Softball, Swimming and Diving, Tennis, Indoor Track and Field, Outdoor Track and Field, Volleyball

National Collegiate Championships (10)

    Men -  Gymnastics, Water Polo; Women - Bowling, Gymnastics, Water Polo; Men and Women - Fencing, Rifle, Skiing



Does the denominator for women equal (436 minus Wabash & Hampden-Sydney  & Hobart =) 433?

Ralph Turner

#43
I have not found the central table for the number of participants, so I have counted 159 schools for Field Hockey.

159 divided by 433 = 36.7%  (36.7 points for the field hockey champion is not bad.)

Men's Soccer 399 teams divided by (436 minus how many women's schools)...

Mr. Ypsi

IF I can find the relevant data, I'm leaning towards 100 (and participation number for denominator of ratio) = highest participation number of sport for each gender.  (My gut hunch is that that will turn out to be either basketball or soccer for both genders.)  I plan to do each gender separately (and report for each gender) then simply add the totals for the overall title.

Commentary on whether to do the top 7 for each gender, then the two other best scores, or whether to just do all sports and count on the PR sufficiently reducing the advantage of the 'rich' schools?  [Even with the PR, I'm concerned that schools that can afford to go 'oops' for 7-8 sports per gender have too much advantage over schools that just can't afford more than the bare minimum.]