Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

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Kira & Jaxon's Dad

Quote from: K-Mack on February 15, 2007, 09:23:08 PM
I agree with some of the recent posts.

And if anyone should be complaining, it's the Menlos and Principias of the world who don't really have the student body size to compete in a lot of sports on a consistent basis.

How many students are at Melo and Principias?  Mount Union was only around 1500 when I went there in the early 90s and are up to about 2500 now.
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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)



See, that's just the thing.  When I was at school, enrollment was about 650.  We had the minimum number of sports (basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, cross country, baseball and softball.)  A lot of the teams stunk and relied on un-recruited kids showing up to play.

It seems like this is the proto-typical school that doesn't like the competition.  But at the same time no one there ever had thoughts about competing on a national level.  We could do well in our conference and that's what people cared about.

It seems like it's really the bigger schools who want to offer 25 sports for prestige sake, but not spend the money on recruiting and coaches, etc who are really complaining.

It's not the small schools that you should be worried about.  It's the large private ones.
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johnnie_esq

#707
Quote from: K-Mack on February 15, 2007, 09:31:00 PM
Quote from: Warren Thompson on February 15, 2007, 04:32:10 PM
Quote from: johnnie_esq on February 15, 2007, 11:57:36 AM
I don't think a separate division is necessarily a disaster.  It could be a positive for some schools who struggle currently given their resources--

Off the top of my head, I (think I) agree. It depends on how the possible membership falls out. However, it should be fairly clear that there's a wide gap in D3 between the "haves" and the "have-nots," though, admittedly, many of the latter may be content with their status.

In sum, I don't truly have an answer, but I'm convinced the status quo in D3 isn't all that healthy.

I've yet to hear a convincing argument for how these so-called problems are going to be solved.

And when III and IV show up, in 10 more years, will an unhappy contingent develop and branch of into D5 and D6?

At some point, non-similar institutions are going to have to coexist.

I agree with your last sentence entirely.  There will be some sense of diversity for sure, as there will need to be some sort of tent to stuff all sorts of schools in.

But there aren't any certainties in any change, as if there were, the legislation that has come down in the past few years would have ended it (as was hoped).  The reaction has been unhappiness about some of the changes and there has been some resentment about the unhappiness. 

I look at it this way-- there is a fundamental cost problem regarding D2 that pushes schools to D3 or over to D1.  The business of education means that once schools cut costs in such a major way, they are not likely to incur them again unless they can point to specific benefit they receive from the costs.  Starting from a school at the D3 level, does an athletic program at the D2 level increase its revenue to offset the costs by the change?  Under the current situation in D2, it appears unlikely (with exceptions, for sure).  So there is little incentive for schools that perhaps could be a better fit in D2, either size-wise, demographic-wise, tuition-wise, funding-wise, mission-wise, program-wise or otherwise, to actually move there, thus making the D3 tent so difficult.

I don't know what would happen in regard to a D4.  What we struggle with in Minnesota is how Northwestern (Roseville) or Crown College, recent NAIA converts whose student bodies are small, are supposed to compete with many of the UW schools, whose student bodies mirror the size of the D2 schools in Minnesota (SCSU, Minn. State Mankato, and UMD all have approximately 10,000 students, and I think some of the UW schools are even larger than that).  We struggle with how Macalester, who does not devote anywhere close to the funding for athletics, can compete on the same playing field as SJU football or CSB basketball.  While this is admittedly a regional issue, seeing that the MWC and the IIAC may be in a similar boat as Northwestern and Macalester, it illustrates a larger issue that needs to be corrected.

To be clear, I'm in favor of the NCAA revisiting its structure entirely and fixing the D2 problem.  I think if the NCAA restructures there is an opportunity to encourage a "free" division swapping that may relieve some burden on D3.  But without such a restructure, I don't think the funding is there to make a fourth division on D3's own initiative.  The last time the NCAA restructured itself entirely was at the dawn of the television age.  Perhaps it is time to do it again at the dawn of the internet age.
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johnnie_esq

Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 16, 2007, 10:31:33 AM
It's not the small schools that you should be worried about.  It's the large private ones.

Excellent observation.  It parallels the notion of a split on "funding" grounds.  I use the small schools as examples of victims here, and I agree that the fully-funded ones are the problem in D3.
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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


It's true.  I think it's more that the big, rich private schools are starting to feel inferior athletically to the state schools.

The small schools know they are inferior and have no real issue with it.
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Ralph Turner

Quote from: Hoops Fan on February 16, 2007, 10:31:33 AM


It seems like it's really the bigger schools who want to offer 25 sports for prestige sake, but not spend the money on recruiting and coaches, etc who are really complaining.

It's not the small schools that you should be worried about.  It's the large private ones.

+1 hoops fan!  That captures the essence of the debate.

D3 is the big tent.  For a small school among its peers (and the UMAC is an example), the conference championship is a big thing!  It is laudable, in and of itself.  The gravy is when the NCAA foots the tab for these kids to make a trip for a playoff game!

They have striven,  they have competed, and hopefully the victorious coach, who blew them out by 20 points with vastly superior talent, addresses them in the locker room after the conclusion of the game to congratulate them on their season and how joyful it was to him to see students-athletes leaving it all on the court or field.

That is the spirit of D3!  And, the big tent will accomodate that.  We love the Cinderellas.  That is what is so great about March Madness, when hard-working teams "will" themselves to victory over vastly superior talent!

Ralph Turner

Quote from: johnnie_esq on February 16, 2007, 10:56:39 AM
...

To be clear, I'm in favor of the NCAA revisiting its structure entirely and fixing the D2 problem.  I think if the NCAA restructures there is an opportunity to encourage a "free" division swapping that may relieve some burden on D3.  But without such a restructure, I don't think the funding is there to make a fourth division on D3's own initiative.  The last time the NCAA restructured itself entirely was at the dawn of the television age.  Perhaps it is time to do it again at the dawn of the internet age.
I cannot see why it should take more than 1-2 years for a D3 to move to D2!

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: Ralph Turner on February 16, 2007, 12:45:08 PM
Quote from: johnnie_esq on February 16, 2007, 10:56:39 AM
...

To be clear, I'm in favor of the NCAA revisiting its structure entirely and fixing the D2 problem.  I think if the NCAA restructures there is an opportunity to encourage a "free" division swapping that may relieve some burden on D3.  But without such a restructure, I don't think the funding is there to make a fourth division on D3's own initiative.  The last time the NCAA restructured itself entirely was at the dawn of the television age.  Perhaps it is time to do it again at the dawn of the internet age.
I cannot see why it should take more than 1-2 years for a D3 to move to D2!

They don't want to end up like Chowan.
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tmerton

Quote from: kirasdad on February 16, 2007, 10:07:30 AM
Quote from: K-Mack on February 15, 2007, 09:23:08 PM
I agree with some of the recent posts.

And if anyone should be complaining, it's the Menlos and Principias of the world who don't really have the student body size to compete in a lot of sports on a consistent basis.

How many students are at Melo and Principias?  Mount Union was only around 1500 when I went there in the early 90s and are up to about 2500 now.

Menlo has about 600 students.

Pat Coleman

Esq:

No UW D-III school has as many as 10,000 full-time undergraduate students.

UW-Eau Claire     Eau Claire, WI     9280
UW-La Crosse    La Crosse, WI    7389
UW-Oshkosh    Oshkosh, WI    8586
UW-Platteville    Platteville, WI    5015
UW-River Falls    River Falls, WI    5019
UW-Stevens Point    Stevens Point, WI    7849
UW-Stout    Menomonie, WI    6229
UW-Superior    Superior, WI    1947
UW-Whitewater    Whitewater, WI    8708

I would say that the NCAA can ease movement into Division II all it wants, but that doesn't mean schools are going to take them up on it. In our decade of D-III coverage, the list of schools that have moved or are moving to D-III is actually rather small: UC San Diego, Chowan, Chestnut Hill, Lincoln and Lake Erie. (I don't know if I've missed any.) Three of those schools have barely begun the process.

If there were a Division II-AA, for example, who do we think would take them up on it?

Let me take the Minnesota situation one step further -- how are Crown and Martin Luther and North Central Bible expected to compete with the MIAC? Yet here they are, all in the same classification.

Welcome to D-III. :)
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Gray Fox

Quote from: K-Mack on February 15, 2007, 09:31:00 PM
At some point, non-similar institutions are going to have to coexist.
The SCIAC is a good example.
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Knightstalker

Quote from: Gray Fox on February 16, 2007, 07:26:01 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on February 15, 2007, 09:31:00 PM
At some point, non-similar institutions are going to have to coexist.
The SCIAC is a good example.

The Skyline is another good example.

"In the end we will survive rather than perish not because we accumulate comfort and luxury but because we accumulate wisdom"  Colonel Jack Jacobs US Army (Ret).

Pat Coleman

Not a very good example, considering the way it's been splitting up the last year or so. :)

Similarly the CAC, which is split public/private. The very uneasy peace was broken when Catholic and Goucher decided to bolt.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

johnnie_esq

Quote from: Pat Coleman on February 16, 2007, 07:10:19 PM
Esq:

No UW D-III school has as many as 10,000 full-time undergraduate students.


I looked up the Minnesota D2 undergraduate enrollments for comparison.

St. Cloud State      14,496
Minnesota State-Mankato   12,683
UM-Duluth      8,931
Winona State      7,447
Minnesota State-Moorhead7,242
Southwest MN State   5,605
Bemidji State      4,126
Concordia-SP      1,736

Taking away SCSU and Mankato, the other six are pretty comparable to the UW schools.  This is again, not to pick on the WIACers, but as a point of comparison.

My point was not to look solely at the D2 schools, but at the NAIA converts who have had the option to look at either D2 (offering scholarships, similar to many NAIA schools) or D3 to cut costs.  While you don't see D2 schools moving to D3 (it would be a 4 year process, I assume-- unless you plan to lose those scholarship athletes), you do see the NAIAers tending to choose D3 over D2.

Do you really think the NCAA would fund a second subdivision under its current structure of its smallest division?

As far as the UMAC schools, they already do compete with the MIAC-- just ask AO  ;D  In fairness, they have been competitive in basketball for some time, and NWC has done pretty well against MIAC squads in football.  These schools are much closer in terms of enrollment to MIAC and IIAC squads than MIAC is to WIAC.  But I'm not precluding that the MIAC couldn't be lumped in any split with the WIAC right now...
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K-Mack

(for the record, I made the below posts before realizing how many well-thought out responses I had not yet read. Forgive me if this has been covered)

Quote from: Knightstalker on February 15, 2007, 11:00:49 PM
I am not sure about other sports but in basketball we figured it out one off season that the percentage of championships won by state schools and by private schools very closly mirrored the percentage of state and private schools in D3.  I really don't think there is a distinct advantage either way.

I figure that MUC, SJU, Rowan, Linfield, UWW and a few other schools will have to have several bad seasons in a row before they stop attracting the best players to their programs.  State or Private does not give an advantage, coaching, recruiting and continued success give a program an advantage.

Just my stupid opinion.

I agree for the most part. Just among those powers that you listed you have many different types of schools. And even the Amherst / Platteville thing (or whatever it was) says a lot.

The weird thing is once you get beyond football and basketball, the super-haves (see below) often become the powerhouses with everyone else struggling to keep pace. At some level, high academic reputation and financial standing does bring about athletic success, if you're talking about the right sports.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 16, 2007, 12:21:17 AM
My impression is that the schools that are pushing for more restrictive rules -- the so-called D4 teams -- aren't necessarily the have-nots. They're more like the super-haves, in fact: NESCAC schools, NCAC schools, MWC schools, all of them quite financially comfortable and highly selective in terms of admissions.

I feel that.

But it also makes me wonder, then, what do they stand to gain by separating?

Just the war over who keeps the Division III name might be enough to subvert (?) the whole thing.
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