Pool C - 2017

Started by wally_wabash, October 09, 2017, 09:11:08 AM

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jamtod

Quote from: HansenRatings on November 14, 2017, 05:24:11 PM
One interesting thing from her interview that caught my ear was the line, "when I first saw the bracket this morning." Wasn't she involved in MAKING the bracket?

I think she had to sit out of a good chunk of the deliberations because of her connection to UMHB.

crufootball

Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 14, 2017, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on November 14, 2017, 05:24:11 PM
One interesting thing from her interview that caught my ear was the line, "when I first saw the bracket this morning." Wasn't she involved in MAKING the bracket?

I think she had to sit out of a good chunk of the deliberations because of her connection to UMHB.

Which is ridiculous if true, we should either get people that aren't connected to a school or treat them like grown ups that have integrity and don't let their bias influence them. Even if they have a slight bias that is why it is a committee of people and not just a single person making the bracket.

HansenRatings

Quote from: crufootball on November 14, 2017, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 14, 2017, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on November 14, 2017, 05:24:11 PM
One interesting thing from her interview that caught my ear was the line, "when I first saw the bracket this morning." Wasn't she involved in MAKING the bracket?

I think she had to sit out of a good chunk of the deliberations because of her connection to UMHB.

Which is ridiculous if true, we should either get people that aren't connected to a school or treat them like grown ups that have integrity and don't let their bias influence them. Even if they have a slight bias that is why it is a committee of people and not just a single person making the bracket.

I agree. I totally understand excluding someone with close ties to a school from the selection process, but to exclude the Committee Chair from the entire bracketing process because she works for one school in the tournament is craziness.
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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: crufootball on November 14, 2017, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 14, 2017, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on November 14, 2017, 05:24:11 PM
One interesting thing from her interview that caught my ear was the line, "when I first saw the bracket this morning." Wasn't she involved in MAKING the bracket?

I think she had to sit out of a good chunk of the deliberations because of her connection to UMHB.

Which is ridiculous if true, we should either get people that aren't connected to a school or treat them like grown ups that have integrity and don't let their bias influence them. Even if they have a slight bias that is why it is a committee of people and not just a single person making the bracket.

I have made this argument before and shown an example of how it can work.

Women's basketball has been guilty of having anyone with a team in the tournament on the national committee sit out the bracketing. It doesn't work.

Men's basketball has everyone involved and those with teams in the tournament work on other sections of the bracket. That works well.

It clearly shows she wasn't involved because of her ties to UMHB. I am fine with her sitting out if UMHB is at the table or they are talking directly about their matchups and conversations about hosting... but there are other sections she can help with and the CHAIR should never sit out period.

Clearly, the smart things some committees do have got to be passed on to others.
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Pat Coleman

I think that works in basketball, Dave, and larger sports, but I don't think it would really work in football. The football bracket just isn't large enough to separate people that way. Basketball has a lot of work with pods and stuff that could be done and there are, of course, twice as many teams. But bracketing football isn't really the same.
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crufootball

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 14, 2017, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: crufootball on November 14, 2017, 05:34:17 PM
Quote from: jamtoTommie on November 14, 2017, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: HansenRatings on November 14, 2017, 05:24:11 PM
One interesting thing from her interview that caught my ear was the line, "when I first saw the bracket this morning." Wasn't she involved in MAKING the bracket?

I think she had to sit out of a good chunk of the deliberations because of her connection to UMHB.

Which is ridiculous if true, we should either get people that aren't connected to a school or treat them like grown ups that have integrity and don't let their bias influence them. Even if they have a slight bias that is why it is a committee of people and not just a single person making the bracket.

I have made this argument before and shown an example of how it can work.

Women's basketball has been guilty of having anyone with a team in the tournament on the national committee sit out the bracketing. It doesn't work.

Men's basketball has everyone involved and those with teams in the tournament work on other sections of the bracket. That works well.

It clearly shows she wasn't involved because of her ties to UMHB. I am fine with her sitting out if UMHB is at the table or they are talking directly about their matchups and conversations about hosting... but there are other sections she can help with and the CHAIR should never sit out period.

Clearly, the smart things some committees do have got to be passed on to others.

I can see the fear of bias but if you are only going to have a committee of 8 it seems foolish for any member to be removed, especially the chair.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Pat Coleman on November 14, 2017, 09:09:25 PM
I think that works in basketball, Dave, and larger sports, but I don't think it would really work in football. The football bracket just isn't large enough to separate people that way. Basketball has a lot of work with pods and stuff that could be done and there are, of course, twice as many teams. But bracketing football isn't really the same.

I think it could still work. She could still remain involved without having to be removed completely. There is also a lot of conversations to be had that don't directly apply to UMHB, hosting, or their matchups. There are a lot of logistics to figure out as well in the rest of the bracket. I think it is far more effective than removing her (and others) completely.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

wally_wabash

Quote from: HansenRatings on November 14, 2017, 05:24:11 PM
One interesting thing from her interview that caught my ear was the line, "when I first saw the bracket this morning." Wasn't she involved in MAKING the bracket?

I did a double take on that also.  If somebody affiliated with a team in the field can't be part of the bracketing conversation, then maybe we can have the foresight to pick somebody other than an administrator from the defending national champion to chair the committee.  I know we don't like to presume anything about who is getting in and who isn't, but come on.  A representative from UMHB was probably not going to pass this apparently super strict conflict check when it comes to bracketing. 
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cubs

So going off of memory after looking at the scoreboard...  Pool C's go 2-3 yesterday? 

Wins by Case Western Reserve and Frostburg State and losses by St. John's, Illinois Wesleyan and Hardin-Simmons?
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wally_wabash

Quote from: cubs on November 19, 2017, 11:48:50 AM
So going off of memory after looking at the scoreboard...  Pool C's go 2-3 yesterday? 

Wins by Case Western Reserve and Frostburg State and losses by St. John's, Illinois Wesleyan and Hardin-Simmons?

Yep.   :)
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

art76

Wally, and others in the know, how deep has a "Pool C" team ever gone in the play-offs? Frostburg State has won two now and has to get by Mount Union. If they could do that, would they be in good company with other Pool C teams?
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wally_wabash

Quote from: art76 on November 27, 2017, 12:33:09 PM
Wally, and others in the know, how deep has a "Pool C" team ever gone in the play-offs? Frostburg State has won two now and has to get by Mount Union. If they could do that, would they be in good company with other Pool C teams?

Oshkosh was a Pool C team last year.  I'd have to do a deeper dive to find some other examples of at-large teams going real deep.  It's definitely happened. 
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HansenRatings

Quote from: wally_wabash on November 27, 2017, 12:43:18 PM
Quote from: art76 on November 27, 2017, 12:33:09 PM
Wally, and others in the know, how deep has a "Pool C" team ever gone in the play-offs? Frostburg State has won two now and has to get by Mount Union. If they could do that, would they be in good company with other Pool C teams?

Oshkosh was a Pool C team last year.  I'd have to do a deeper dive to find some other examples of at-large teams going real deep.  It's definitely happened.

UWW was Pool C in '08 when they lost in the Stagg Bowl, too.
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HansenRatings

If someone else wants to take the time to see how far they all made it.


Year   Teams   
2016   UW-Oshkosh   UW-Platteville   St. John's   Wheaton Ill.   Mount Union   Hardin-Simmons      
2015   UW-Whitewater   Ohio Northern   Whitworth   Wesley   t. John's   UMHB      
2014   Centre   John Carroll   Wabash   St. Thomas   Delaware Valley   Muhlenberg      
2013   UW-Platteville   John Carroll   Pacific Lutheran   St. John Fisher   Illinois Wesleyan         
2012   Heidelberg   Pacific Lutheran   Bridgewater State   Rowan   Bethel   Elmhurst   Louisiana College   
2011   Redlands   Centre   Illinois College   St. John Fisher   Illinois Wesleyan   McMurry      
2010   Hampden-Sydney   Ohio Northern   Montclair State   Bethel   Coe   Wheaton      
2009   Washington and Jefferson   Wabash   St. Thomas   Albright   Coe   UMHB      
2008   UW-Whitewater   Washington and Jefferson   Otterbein   Plymouth State   Wheaton   Hardin-Simmons      
2007   UW-Eau Claire   Capital   St. John's   Hobart   Mount St. Joseph   St. John Fisher   Ithaca   
2006   UW-La Crosse   Capital   St. John's   Hobart   St. John Fisher   North Central   Hardin-Simmons   
2005   Washington and Jefferson   Capital   Cortland   Concordia-Moorhead   Wilkes   Hobart   Central   North Central
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crufootball

Quote from: wally_wabash on November 27, 2017, 12:43:18 PM
Quote from: art76 on November 27, 2017, 12:33:09 PM
Wally, and others in the know, how deep has a "Pool C" team ever gone in the play-offs? Frostburg State has won two now and has to get by Mount Union. If they could do that, would they be in good company with other Pool C teams?

Oshkosh was a Pool C team last year.  I'd have to do a deeper dive to find some other examples of at-large teams going real deep.  It's definitely happened.

Last year was a banner year for the non Pool A teams, UMHB was Pool B, Oshkosh and Mount Union were Pool C's, John Carroll was the only final 4 team to get the automatic bid. I am sure there are other but the first time UMHB went to the Stagg Bowl in 2004 they were a Pool C team as well.