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Messages - ElRetornodelEspencio

#1
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 08:41:28 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 03, 2017, 07:32:57 PM
While I haven't read Hurley's book I would guess that it probably was directed specifically at Ramapo, since it wouldn't make much sense for a still-active high-school basketball coach to indict all of D3 like that. While I don't claim to know all that much about Hurley or his coaching career at St. Anthony HS other than the stray article I've read here and there (that usually spends as much or more time talking about his sons), I have to think that he's had St. Anthony players go on to other D3 schools where they were successful student-athletes.

Why wouldn't it make sense if that's his experience and frame of reference? It's not his job to know everything about D3, and it's not his goal with a program like his to send kids to D3.

This is one of the realities implicit in D3. You're known by the company you keep. One reason I think there should be some real standards for membership and for eligibility.
#2
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 08:33:59 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 03, 2017, 07:14:59 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 03, 2017, 12:52:48 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 02:12:04 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 03, 2017, 01:48:37 AM
The implication is that those guys may not have had much effect against the eventual national champ of that year. The ESPN broadcast of that title game is on our 1982 NCAA Tournament page.

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Quite right. I can't believe all these so-called experts here that have so much shade to throw at me didn't know who Pete Metzelaars is. I assume the only D3 basketball champion to play in the championship of a major US sport. One of the best players in D3 history. Maybe the best ever center.

This board isn't going to live this one down for a long time. You all just got exposed.

Whoa. Back off, Spence.

I'm sorry, this is uncalled for. You have no right to say this to me. Whatever you thikn of me, I don't try to tell people what to say or do. I give my unvarnished opinion of what they do and say, but I will and have defended the right of anyone to say it.

I have every right to call you out on something when you incorrectly claim that I "got exposed."

And you're not sorry, either.

Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 06:36:29 PMHopefully Pat will let this go through htis time rather than editorializing.

I have a lot of disagreements about the Metzelaars thing but it's pretty obvious you're wrong and backpedaling with your condescending demand.

Au contraire. You gleefully claimed that you had just administered a facial to the entire room with your "Nyah, nyah, didn't mention Metzelaars!" rant. I called you out on it. That's all. No backpedaling.

Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 06:36:29 PMAnyone can watch the video and see the dude was unstoppable even by a team with talent and height and athleticism. Still had no chance.

And anyone can completely disagree with your opinion on this, as I do, and that will simply be the end of it. Why? Because we give our unvarnished opinions of what you do and say, but we will and have defended the right of you to say it.

Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 06:36:29 PMBut standing up for myself against bullying like this is a lot more important, really.

Pot, meet kettle.

Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 06:36:29 PM(FYI, I've probably forgotten more about Jeff Gibbs' time in the OAC than you ever knew. One thing I haven't forgotten is that he didn't always guard the other team's 5 man, specifically because of his height. Weird that your example that's supposed to prove me wrong and catch me out was that one.)

Fine. I'll give you that one, since you're an OAC guy. But there's plenty of other examples, such as the '15 UWSP team.

I know you probably think all of this made sense, but it didn't.

And I am sorry that now I'm going to be blamed for taking the thread off topic to address your inappropriate and condescending statement.

Bottom line is dress it up all you want, but I've never tried to intimidate someone into posting or not posting as I please. You have.

I wouldn't suggest trying it in person if we ever meet.
#3
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 08:09:07 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 03, 2017, 07:13:48 PM
As a Wabash grad, I'm enamored with that 1982 team, and Pete & Barb Metzelaars. He's probably the best tight end Wabash ever had, for sure. And he was a very solid D3 hoops player, but his game wasn't nuanced. That Wabash team had many ways to beat you besides just lobbing the ball into Pete. They started 5-4 but Mac Petty and the AD knew they had a great team and wanted to play tough competition in the early season to get them ready for the tourney.

The freshmen on the 1982 team overlapped with me - as they were seniors when I was a freshman. I was fraternity brothers with Pete's freshman backup.

Pete reminded me of Artis Gilmore (in a D-3 frame) -  an inside force on the boards and in the paint. Obviously an excellent player, but unequivocally calling him the best center ever in D-3 is a little much without really doing a deep dive into the other contenders.

That Wabash team was our fifth 'Wonder Five" - which is a great nickname for great teams from back in the day. The others were the "World Champions" in 1908, the 1917 team led by Homer Stonebraker (Wingate, IN, salute!) , the 1922 "National Champs", and the 1925 team which had one loss - to Wisconsin.

Well feel free to dive, then. There's no doubt that without Metzelaars, that team doesn't come close to beating Potsdam.

And actually what I think I've more strongly said is best center on a team in the championship game, which has led to the Jeff Gibbs mentions because that's pretty much all anyone has got.

You don't really need nuance when you have what he had. But his hands were outstanding, obviously, so it's not like you could just surround him and count on him not to make the tough catches. Good passer, smart, unselfish, good positioning.  And obviously, extremely great at converting once he got the ball.

I wondered...assumed might be a better word, that Metzelaars needed a bit of time after football to get into basketball rhythm and shape, and that accounted for the early struggles. I suppose that could be wrong, but seemed more than logical.

Aside from luck, I still would like to hear how a D3 team would have dealt with him without having the 3, and without having a shot clock. Potsdam pressed, didn't work in part because they could just throw it in Pete's general direction and he would come down with it in the frontcourt. Other part because they did have some good ballhandling guards.

Marietta had a guy in the mid 90s that played a similar game to Metzelaars (led the nation in FG%, averaged like 18 a game), but wasn't nearly as effective and could be shut down (though it was tough). There was a big difference between him and Metzelaars.
#4
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 06:36:29 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 03, 2017, 12:52:48 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 02:12:04 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 03, 2017, 01:48:37 AM
The implication is that those guys may not have had much effect against the eventual national champ of that year. The ESPN broadcast of that title game is on our 1982 NCAA Tournament page.

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Quite right. I can't believe all these so-called experts here that have so much shade to throw at me didn't know who Pete Metzelaars is. I assume the only D3 basketball champion to play in the championship of a major US sport. One of the best players in D3 history. Maybe the best ever center.

This board isn't going to live this one down for a long time. You all just got exposed.

Whoa. Back off, Spence.

I'm sorry, this is uncalled for. You have no right to say this to me. Whatever you thikn of me, I don't try to tell people what to say or do. I give my unvarnished opinion of what they do and say, but I will and have defended the right of anyone to say it.

Hopefully Pat will let this go through htis time rather than editorializing.

I have a lot of disagreements about the Metzelaars thing but it's pretty obvious you're wrong and backpedaling with your condescending demand. Anyone can watch the video and see the dude was unstoppable even by a team with talent and height and athleticism. Still had no chance.

But standing up for myself against bullying like this is a lot more important, really.

(FYI, I've probably forgotten more about Jeff Gibbs' time in the OAC than you ever knew. One thing I haven't forgotten is that he didn't always guard the other team's 5 man, specifically because of his height. Weird that your example that's supposed to prove me wrong and catch me out was that one.)
#5
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 06:26:39 PM
You're really stretching to find an insult in that tweet or that article.

#6
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 03:54:04 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 03, 2017, 10:25:18 AM
Posted my Top 25 ballot this morning... here for you to peruse: http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2017/01/03/daves-top-25-ballot-16-17-week-5/

I will freely admit there is plenty of room to argue who should and shouldn't be on my ballot... but I don't have countless hours each week. At some point, I have to cut-bait and post my ballot to the system.

Are you even aware that Marietta was missing their tallest player for those games (well other than a guy that plays sparingly)? Take a competent 6-6 guy off pretty much any D3 team and I imagine it's going to hurt, even if he doesn't do things that show up on the stat sheet (post defense and box out responsibilities on the boards are important too). Leaving aside your ranking itself, the nature of your criticism is way, way off base. The Whitman game was basically a toss up. The other games MC lost because they shot poorly and committed turnovers (partly because the officiating in FL was awful with a capital A).

I understand that you don't have unlimited time, but in that case don't write like you have detailed knowledge that you don't.
#7
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 02:12:04 AM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 03, 2017, 01:48:37 AM
The implication is that those guys may not have had much effect against the eventual national champ of that year. The ESPN broadcast of that title game is on our 1982 NCAA Tournament page.

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Quite right. I can't believe all these so-called experts here that have so much shade to throw at me didn't know who Pete Metzelaars is. I assume the only D3 basketball champion to play in the championship of a major US sport. One of the best players in D3 history. Maybe the best ever center.

This board isn't going to live this one down for a long time. You all just got exposed.

Plus the game was pre 3-point era, pre shot clock. I'm not sure anyone that's ever played in the championship game since would have beaten Wabash the way they played under those rules. I just don't see a way you could deal with someone like Metzelaars under those conditions. He had great hands and was a great passer to boot. A similar (but shorter, and arguably less good shooter) D1 player led a MAC team to the Elite 8. People on this board would have written Wabash off when they started 5-4, probably.
#8
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 02:04:19 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on January 03, 2017, 01:45:43 AM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 03, 2017, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 02, 2017, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 01, 2017, 08:10:35 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 01, 2017, 04:59:50 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 01, 2017, 04:55:22 PM
Point is for all the bluster about New England, there's not a lot of reason to think they're actually the best, especially if you're not talking about Amherst being that standard-bearer.

Are there people here saying New England is the best? I think the current status of the discussion is as follows:

ElRetornodelEspencio: Babson plays a bunch of tomato cans.
Others: New England is better than that.

I'm sure others have read more about this than I have, but I think the 1981-82 Hamilton team is the one that had the best shot at a national title, had the NESCAC presidents allowed them to play.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/statsPDFArchive/MBB2/C/Men's%20Basketball_Men's_Division%20III_1982_267_Hamilton%20College.pdf
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Their two best rebounders were 6-4 and 6-1. Surely you don't think they had anything for Wabash.

UW-Stevens Point's best rebounders where 6-1 and 6-0 when they won the national championship two years ago... the second two were 6-4 and 6-4... not to mention the fact, teams were far smaller in the 80s than they are now. Not sure what point you are trying to make in an attempt to dismiss Hamilton.

Missing the point as usual...

What does 2010s Stevens Point have to do with 1982?
You questioned whether a team whose best rebounders were 6'4" and 6'1" were capable of beating a top team... Dave provided evidence that they can indeed by mentioning a team with even shorter rebounders who have won a title.

Never said a thing about beating an unnamed top team. I think it is highly, highly, HIGHLY unlikely that a team playing Lilliputians at forward would have had anything for the 1982 champions.

Potsdam had decent size for D3, was the defending champions. And they got steamrolled.

What in the world happened to Potsdam basketball, anyway?
#9
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 12:26:41 AM
Quote from: Knightstalker on January 02, 2017, 09:24:33 PM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on January 02, 2017, 08:43:37 PM
http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/week5

So new poll is out if anyone cares.

4 new entrants, 2 NJAC teams and 2 NESCAC teams.

No, it can't be, those conferences don't play tough competition.    ::)

Sometimes, I just can't help myself.

What does being ranked have to do with playing tough competition? Obviously they arent connected at all.

Swing and a miss.
#10
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 12:25:21 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 02, 2017, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 01, 2017, 08:10:35 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 01, 2017, 04:59:50 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 01, 2017, 04:55:22 PM
Point is for all the bluster about New England, there's not a lot of reason to think they're actually the best, especially if you're not talking about Amherst being that standard-bearer.

Are there people here saying New England is the best? I think the current status of the discussion is as follows:

ElRetornodelEspencio: Babson plays a bunch of tomato cans.
Others: New England is better than that.

I'm sure others have read more about this than I have, but I think the 1981-82 Hamilton team is the one that had the best shot at a national title, had the NESCAC presidents allowed them to play.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/statsPDFArchive/MBB2/C/Men's%20Basketball_Men's_Division%20III_1982_267_Hamilton%20College.pdf
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Their two best rebounders were 6-4 and 6-1. Surely you don't think they had anything for Wabash.

UW-Stevens Point's best rebounders where 6-1 and 6-0 when they won the national championship two years ago... the second two were 6-4 and 6-4... not to mention the fact, teams were far smaller in the 80s than they are now. Not sure what point you are trying to make in an attempt to dismiss Hamilton.

Missing the point as usual...

What does 2010s Stevens Point have to do with 1982?
#11
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 03, 2017, 12:24:31 AM
Quote from: Greek Tragedy on January 02, 2017, 08:43:37 PM
http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/week5

So new poll is out if anyone cares.

4 new entrants, 2 NJAC teams and 2 NESCAC teams.

Nah, no east coast bias at all.
#12
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 01, 2017, 11:26:24 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 01, 2017, 09:52:29 PM
What is it with the OAC wanting state schools to be D2?


Just struck me as a particularly D2 roster construction strategy -- most D3 can't just take Johnny C-minus from mediocre D1s or JUCOs.
#13
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 01, 2017, 08:25:41 PM
Quote from: Bucket on January 01, 2017, 07:53:11 PM
Quote from: sac on January 01, 2017, 06:59:24 PM
2 point margin doesn't really make anything definitive.

Definitive? No, of course not.

But he specifically said, "Wouldn't surprise me if they were better than Babson if you actually got them on a court together." On the court together. They were on the court together with Middlebury, and they weren't better than a short-handed Middlebury. And Midd isn't as good as Babson. (Again, I say this as a Midd fan.)

So, by the measuring stick of getting on the court with a team, as he wrote, they failed.

You can't be this stupid.
#14
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 01, 2017, 08:13:36 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 01, 2017, 07:50:37 PM


... except in the mind of one poster who, trust me, is going to continue to work it over like a terrier with a bone. ::)

We'll see what happens when Babson faces a quality team again. They failed in their first test of that sort, just as they did in basically all of them last year. And in most of those, their star became a late 30s Kobe-esque volume shooting machine.

Tufts at neutral and Endicott at home does not qualify for a team that is being fancied a potential champion.
#15
Multi-Regional Topics / Re: Top 25 talk
January 01, 2017, 08:10:35 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on January 01, 2017, 04:59:50 PM
Quote from: ElRetornodelEspencio on January 01, 2017, 04:55:22 PM
Point is for all the bluster about New England, there's not a lot of reason to think they're actually the best, especially if you're not talking about Amherst being that standard-bearer.

Are there people here saying New England is the best? I think the current status of the discussion is as follows:

ElRetornodelEspencio: Babson plays a bunch of tomato cans.
Others: New England is better than that.

I'm sure others have read more about this than I have, but I think the 1981-82 Hamilton team is the one that had the best shot at a national title, had the NESCAC presidents allowed them to play.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/statsPDFArchive/MBB2/C/Men's%20Basketball_Men's_Division%20III_1982_267_Hamilton%20College.pdf
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Their two best rebounders were 6-4 and 6-1. Surely you don't think they had anything for Wabash.